Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[Ooka]

BEFORE YOU POST : - IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW A TIER LIST WORKS PLEASE DONT POST WITHOUT KNOWING. DO SOME REASERCH ON THE MATTER FIRST. IF YOU DO POST WITHOUT KNOWING AND SHOW THIS WITHIN YOUR POSTS YOU WILL BE INFRACTED, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Yours Truly, S+M mods.

Information

This is a discussion thread for one of the very few things PC is missing, a Tier List. Here you can discuss why you think a Pokemon should have a higher or lower Tier than it already does.

Uber

Pokémon too powerful for OU; a catch-all playing field. Anything goes as far as Pokémon allowed, this is also classed as a ban list from standard play.

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys (All forms excluding Speed)
Dialga
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias (regardless of Soul Dew)
Latios (Same as Latias)
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Wobbuffet

Comments

Nothing

OU

Pokémon who are used frequently in battle. Since our focus is on battling COMPETITIVELY, one can safely assume that Pokémon used often in battle are stronger than most other Pokémon because the object of competitive play is ultimately victory in battle, which is achieved by using a "powerful" team.

USED OFTEN, STRONG.

Abomasnow
Aerodactyl
Azelf
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong
Celebi
Cresselia
Deoxys (Speed)
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Electivire
Forretress
Gallade
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heatran
Heracross
Hippowdon
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon
Lucario
Kingdra
Machamp
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Metagross
Milotic
Ninjask
Porygon-Z
Roserade
Salamence
Scizor
Skarmory
Shaymin - S ("Skymin")
Snorlax
Spiritomb
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tentacruel
Togekiss
Tyranitar
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Weavile
Weezing
Yanmega
Zapdos

Comments

Nothing

BL

These Pokémon are not seen as often as those in the OU tier, but are considered too powerful for UU play (Also considered a ban list for UU). These Pokémon ARE NOT considered any weaker than Pokémon in the OU tier.

USED OCCASIONALLY, STRONG

Alakazam
Ambipom
Arcanine
Articuno
Azumarill
Blaziken
Charizard
Crobat
Empoleon
Entei
Espeon
Exeggutor
Feraligatr
Floatzel
Flygon
Gardevoir
Hariyama
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Lickilicky
Ludicolo
Magmortar
Marowak
Medicham
Mesprit
Miltank
Mismagius
Moltres
Pinsir
Porygon2
Raikou
Rampardos
Regice
Regigigas
Regirock
Registeel
Rhyperior
Sceptile
Shaymin
Slaking
Slowbro
Slowking
Smeargle
Staraptor
Tangrowth
Tauros
Torterra
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Uxie
Venusaur
Zangoose

Comments

Nothing

UU

UU - Pokémon not used often, that are relatively weak.

USED RARELY, WEAK


Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Arbok
Ariados
Armaldo
Banette
Bastiodon
Beautifly
Beedrill
Bellossom
Bibarel
Blastoise
Butterfree
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Castform
Chatot
Cherrim
Chimecho
Claydol
Clefable
Cloyster
Corsola
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Delcatty
Delibird
Dewgong
Ditto
Dodrio
Dorapion
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Dustox
Electrode
Exploud
Farfech'd
Fearow
Flareon
Frosslass
Furret
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Glaceon
Glalie
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Jynx
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kecleon
Kingler
Kricketune
Lanturn
Lapras
Ladian
Leafeon
Linoone
Lopunny
Lumineon
Lunatone
Luvdisc
Luxray
Magcargo
Manectric
Mantine
Masquerain
Mawile
Meganium
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Mr. Mime
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelliper
Persian
Phione
Pidgeot
Pikachu
Plusle
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Purugly
Quagsire
Quilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Scyther
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shedinja
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Solrock
Spinda
Stantler
Steelix
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Swellow
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Tropius
Unown
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vigoroth
Vileplume
Volbeat
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wormadam [All]
Xatu

Comments

Nothing as of now.

So start discussing what you think belongs and doesn't belong and we'll go from there.

Updates

-Azumarill (Huge Power) moved to BL and Azumarill (no Huge Power) moved to NU
-Nidoking, Pinsir, Poliwrath and Kangaskhan moved to UU
-Marowak (with Thick Club) moved to OU
-Dugtrio moved to OU
-Mamoswine moved to BL
-Mantine moved to UU
-Probopass moved to UU
-Ambipom moved to BL
-Gallade moved to BL
-Houndoom moved to UU
-Mesprit moved to BL
-Vaporeon moved to OU
-Ending Tier discussion until list is updated
-OU changed to Smogon's
-BL changed to Smogon's
-NU tier removed according to Smogon's Tier List
-UU changed to Smogon's
-Reopening tier chat

 

[celestial_okami]

Not sure if this thread belongs here but it is kind of appropriate. Also, I'd like to point out some differences between Marriland's Tier list and Smogons (as you describe it).

(copied from The Clan org. thread.)

Uber > OU -- BL > UU > NU
_______\_ _ _ _ _ _/

Uber is too strong for OU.
OU is used more than BL
BL is too strong for UU
OU is used more than UU
Everything is stronger than NU

The idea here is that pokemon people wouldn't consider for OU because they aren't used there very often, but are too strong to fall into UU. BL is basically the UU equivalent of Ubers. BL is not its own tier, it is a meta tier which is used to separate OU and UU better, so asking for a BL battle is pretty meaningless.

The only reason you would want to move a pokemon between tiers separated by power is because it is too powerful for the tier it is in.

I prefer Smogon's consideration of pokemon, although they don't have a very up-to-date tierlist but rather a large discussion. Also, having good base stats or nice moves by itself doesn't qualify you for a tier. Liking or disliking a pokemon isn't a good justification for putting in a certain tier. You also have to consider the strength of the pokemon relative to others in the tier you are placing if you want to consider something as UU or BL.

I also don't think that PC really contains enough 'serious' players or a strong enough competetive environment to come up with a good tier list. I'm not trying to be a suck up and I certainly am not being elitist, but I think that we'd be best leaving tier construction up to people like those at smogon and ShoddyBattle users.

As for response to your consideration of pokemon in certain tiers, I'd like to make a few comments.

Starmie - If you are trying to compare it Azelf you are missing something huge. Next to Donphan and Forretress, Starmie is one of the best Rapid Spinners in the game. Unlike 'phan and 'tress, it has a recovery move, bolt-beam (and lets not forget the importance of Ice beam), as well as an ability which basically renders it immune to status. It has excellent speed and special attack, and its defenses and HP (while nothing to write home about) are at least not horrible. Comparing a Spinner to Special Attacker / Sweeper is really comparing apples to oranges. On the Special Atk side sure Azelf might be better in a ton of ways, but it can't spin.​

Tangrowth - Tangrowth's power lies in its physical defense and resistance to one of the best and most common attacks in the game, namely Earthquake. It has access to Doublepowders, Leech Seed, and Knock Off, the incredibly versatile Hidden Power, and host of other moves. It has better base HP, defense, and special attack than Donphan, and the moves available to it allow for a more diverse moveset than either of the other three physical walls you mentioned. It also has an ability which could see at least some use. Donphan's Sturdy is basically useless given that we play in an environment with clauses, but Tangrowth's could be used on a weather team. I'm not sure where you are getting the 2KO out of Metagross either. CB Max atk Metagross has to maximum damage both times to kill a Max def. Tangrowth without Leftovers, and the chances of getting that lucky with your accuracy and damage is just barely above .2%. It doesn't have Ice Shard for taking down dragons and it does have different weaknesses, but that it has options the others clearly don't. That makes it different, not worse.​

BL - Any issues you have with BL are resolved by considering the difference between OU and BL to be usage only. Complaining that one pokemon is in BL and another is in OU is pointless because BL is a meta-tier. It isn't different in power than OU.​

UU - Agreed, Azumarill is BL.​

NU - Butterfree is among the most useful of pokemon in NU, but being able to sleep with near perfect accuracy probably isn't that much of an issue for the NU tier, and anytime you are going to have a UU battle you could use Butterfree anyway. Machamp isn't in NU or UU because its too powerful. Can Butterfree say that its too powerful for NU?​

Wobbuffet - Really, it gets me every time that people don't understand how insanely powerful Wob is. The video you posted also doesn't really prove anything. He switches in and the opponent can't escape. If they have a choice band they surely die to the inevitable Counter / Mirror Coat. If they don't have said choice item, Encore ensures they can't do anything tricky. If Encore hit an attack, you Counter / Mirror Coat / Switch to counter. If Encore got some other move, you switch to another pokemon and then get in some free set-up (EXTREMELY underrated how powerful this is), and if you are going to die you have Destiny Bond. Huge HP coupled with leftovers and some optional Wish-passing, and you have a terrible, terrible opponent you would hate to see on every team.​

Anyway, I know most people will probably go tl;dr but thats my response for now!

 

[Ooka]

Finally, someone responded, alright, discussion starts:

Starmie - If you are trying to compare it Azelf you are missing something huge. Next to Donphan and Forretress, Starmie is one of the best Rapid Spinners in the game. Unlike 'phan and 'tress, it has a recovery move, bolt-beam (and lets not forget the importance of Ice beam), as well as an ability which basically renders it immune to status. It has excellent speed and special attack, and its defenses and HP (while nothing to write home about) are at least not horrible. Comparing a Spinner to Special Attacker / Sweeper is really comparing apples to oranges. On the Special Atk side sure Azelf might be better in a ton of ways, but it can't spin.

To be honest, in the amount of time I have battled, I have only faced 1 Rapid Spinning Starmie, and it was Richard Steel's. I have to say, it didn't work that well at all, and even he admitted this and switched Rapid Spin for another Special Attack and went to Choice Specs Starmie. There are way too many Pokemon that Rapid Spin much better, and it hardly ever gets used as such.

Tangrowth - Tangrowth's power lies in its physical defense and resistance to one of the best and most common attacks in the game, namely Earthquake. It has access to Doublepowders, Leech Seed, and Knock Off, the incredibly versatile Hidden Power, and host of other moves. It has better base HP, defense, and special attack than Donphan, and the moves available to it allow for a more diverse moveset than either of the other three physical walls you mentioned. It also has an ability which could see at least some use. Donphan's Sturdy is basically useless given that we play in an environment with clauses, but Tangrowth's could be used on a weather team. I'm not sure where you are getting the 2KO out of Metagross either. CB Max atk Metagross has to maximum damage both times to kill a Max def. Tangrowth without Leftovers, and the chances of getting that lucky with your accuracy and damage is just barely above .2%. It doesn't have Ice Shard for taking down dragons and it does have different weaknesses, but that it has options the others clearly don't. That makes it different, not worse.

Well, I watch a lot of videos on youtube, and I've seen a Metagross with Leftovers almost 2HKOs a Tangrowth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS_YOm3z95k
I know you're probably sceptic of if the Tangrowth is EV trained right, but I've battled this person (he has my battle video on his page) and he knows how to ev train right. I know it has Leech Seed, but Seriously, look at the other options from Pokemon that deserve to be OU, even Miltank has a more reliable move and it isn't OU.

NU - Butterfree is among the most useful of pokemon in NU, but being able to sleep with near perfect accuracy probably isn't that much of an issue for the NU tier, and anytime you are going to have a UU battle you could use Butterfree anyway. Machamp isn't in NU or UU because its too powerful. Can Butterfree say that its too powerful for NU?

No, but it does get U-Turn, which is a free damage switch (even after Mean Look) while the opponent is asleep. Of course it doesn't make a good lead due to Weavile with Pursuit, but it helps for late game sweeping even in the OU metagame.

 

[celestial_okami]

To be honest, in the amount of time I have battled, I have only faced 1 Rapid Spinning Starmie, and it was Richard Steel's. I have to say, it didn't work that well at all, and even he admitted this and switched Rapid Spin for another Special Attack and went to Choice Specs Starmie. There are way too many Pokemon that Rapid Spin much better, and it hardly ever gets used as such.

On the contrary, too few pokemon can rapid spin. Of the special-attacking spinners, Torkoal and Blastoise are next in line for special attack at 85, and Starmie certainly leads with 100. Most spinners tend to be physically based, not special. Steel may have just found that Spinner-starmie didn't work for his team, it doesn't mean that Starmie isn't one of the best spinners.

If you want to move it to BL just because it isn't used much anymore (remember, BL and OU aren't different in power) we can reference the ShoddyBattle stats but there we find Starmie comes in #15, Donphan at #25, and Forretress at #12. Still seems pretty popular. In contrast to your example, my personal battle experience has brought me up against quite a few spin-Starmies. But thats just metagame discussion, and as we all know the metagame fluctuates. Keeping an up-to-date listing of pokemon uses to separate OU and BL would be next to impossible unless all of us used a program like Shoddy.

Well, I watch a lot of videos on youtube, and I've seen a Metagross with Leftovers almost 2HKOs a Tangrowth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS_YOm3z95k
I know you're probably sceptic of if the Tangrowth is EV trained right, but I've battled this person (he has my battle video on his page) and he knows how to ev train right. I know it has Leech Seed, but Seriously, look at the other options from Pokemon that deserve to be OU, even Miltank has a more reliable move and it isn't OU.

Well we can argue video vs. damage calculator, but its probably more likely that the person in the battle you are referencing didn't have a max defense Tangrowth or you got extremely lucky. In regards to Miltank I believe you were referencing recovery moves, but Leech Seed isn't entirely that and I shouldn't have to explain why. Moveset also isn't the only thing that determines tier placement.

I don't think you are trying to argue that Tangrowth should be UU so your argument doesn't seem to have too much of a point because the BL tier is based on usage, but thats more of a metagame discussion. I haven't seen more than one or two Tangrowths OR Miltanks in my whole experience, but I use Miltank not uncommonly myself.

No, but it does get U-Turn, which is a free damage switch (even after Mean Look) while the opponent is asleep. Of course it doesn't make a good lead due to Weavile with Pursuit, but it helps for late game sweeping even in the OU metagame.

Right, but once again we are arguing whether or not its too powerful for the tier it is in, which is NU and doesn't have a well-established metagame. Does it stand out by having a huge advantage in Stats, movepool, or ability over its competition (say, Machamp to Delibird)? Its ability to deal SE damage to a low-defense OU tier pokemon is a bit unimportant. Its tier placement is only important if you want to have an NU battle. You can use it in OU and UU if you want, nothing is stopping you! Again, the only important consideration is whether or not its too powerful for NU.

 

[Ooka]

Well, since I don't feel like dragging this on for all eternity (which I'm sure would happen) then I'll just say, you're right. I'll change it now.

EDIT: This thread has just become boring.

 

[Saito]

abomasnow is more on BL, and you left out tentacruel which is OU/bl

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Kazaam, I won't stick this yet. And how long do you plan to have this discussion.

When an agreement is settled, a closed list of tiers can be stuck in the Battles forum. Until then, it's better if it's in the main D/P forum.

-MOVED-

 

[MegaDitto]

I also don't think that PC really contains enough 'serious' players or a strong enough competitive environment to come up with a good tier list. I'm not trying to be a suck up and I certainly am not being elitist, but I think that we'd be best leaving tier construction up to people like those at smogon and ShoddyBattle users.

PC has proved it's self in the past that it has an good competitive form. You are right at where the Tier list should be left that. Being that Shoddy is new. Smogon is possibly the best and the only site that should.

 

[Zungie]

With the risk of sounding brainless, is this basically classing pokémon on an overall basis?
Like taking info. from everything about it and compiling a list of which is most powerfull?
If so, then I think you guys are wasting your time mostly.
Any pokémon that is well trained can put any other through it's paces.
They're created to have certain strenths, and certain weakness'.
I mean, how often do you whitewash someone in a battle?
And if you have more than once, you must have been facing someone with a Bidoof and a Ditto as there team.

Regards, Zungie.

 

[Ooka]

With the risk of sounding brainless, is this basically classing pokémon on an overall basis?
Like taking info. from everything about it and compiling a list of which is most powerfull?
If so, then I think you guys are wasting your time mostly.
Any pokémon that is well trained can put any other through it's paces.
They're created to have certain strenths, and certain weakness'.
I mean, how often do you whitewash someone in a battle?
And if you have more than once, you must have been facing someone with a Bidoof and a Ditto as there team.

Regards, Zungie.

Actually, I highly doubt that a Weavile against a Volbeat would be very fair, so that's why this list exists, just to show people what Pokemon belong where, and which are more usable than others.

 

[Zungie]

Hmm maybe you're right to an extent.
Although I'd love to see you come up with a list that is fine with the morjority.
Everybody likes different pokémon, uses them for different reasons and so on.
For example, if you check the Strategies & Movesets board regularly, you'd know how much I prize my Wailord.
Yet you've classed it as UU I believe.
Admittedly, there are alot of pokémon in OU that would give it a real tough fight, but I reakon it could take most of UU.
And Tangrowth? Well it's already been said.
:D

 

[Ooka]

He, Shiny Umbreon, can you go ahead and lock/sticky this in the battling section?

 

[Anti]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves guys. Locking this would ruin the point of the thread. As the metagame evolves, we will have to make necessary changes to the list, especially since I can see several errors off the top of my head.

For example, since when are nidoking, pinsir, and Kangaskhan BL? They're UU, I'm pretty dang sure...and same with poliwrath. Too many BL pokemon IMO that should be either OU or UU. for example, how is thick club marowak BL? That thing is OU all the way. It lols at many physical walls and destroys them with ease :0 And how is /THE/ best finisher in the game, dugtrio, BL?

And IMO, tauros and ambipom should stay in the same tier, whether it's BL or OU.

Just some things I noticed, so yeah.

 

[Ito_Igami]

Blastiose is a great pokemon and should be considered BL rapid spin can learn egg moves mirror coat and haze it also learns counter from the move tutor and and why isn't Alakazam considered OU along with Gengar and Dugtrio could be ran as Adamant natured and beat just about any electric type except Jolteon with an advantageous hidden power plus suckerpunch destroys Gengar and Alakazam

 

[Anti]

Blastiose is a great pokemon and should be considered BL rapid spin can learn egg moves mirror coat and haze it also learns counter from the move tutor and and why isn't Alakazam considered OU along with Gengar and Dugtrio could be ran as Adamant natured and beat just about any electric type except Jolteon with an advantageous hidden power plus suckerpunch destroys Gengar and Alakazam

...end punctuation...where is it? O_o

But deciphering what you said, Dugtrio is usually ran adamant anyways, it's not a new idea by any means. Gengar is OU already also ;/ and I'd disagree, I think Zam belongs in BL since its power in OUs has fallen quickly. EncoreZam used to rock until sash users and annoying new additions like that ruined it, so yeah.

And about the whole sticky concept, I'm all for it, but I do vote to keep this open, as mentioned earlier.

 

[Ooka]

So can you sticky this Shiny Umbreon?

Also, I completely agree with you on the Poliwrath, Nindoking, Kangaskan, and Pinsir thing.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Yes, whatever. I can sticky this in the Battle Stadium, but I don't think a discussion thread is needed after the list is made. The Pokémon won't change, the moves won't change. Why do we need to keep updating? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best thing would be to organize a list where everybody agrees before we treat it as an official one. When it happens, there will be a closed sticky list. Is that okay for you?

And, by the way,

-MOVED and STUCK-

 

[Waker of Chaos]

Machamp isn't in NU or UU because its too powerful. Can Butterfree say that its too powerful for NU?

I honestly don't believe Machamp should be in NU. He should be moved to BL, especially considering Double Battles. He has No Guard and DynamicPunch, and using him can make moves like Zap Cannon useful. He also as good enough Attack to put a dent in a lot of Pokémon, and even though he isn't all that fast, I don't think that really stops him except against a full fledged special sweeper of the Psychic type (Azelf for example).

That's just my take on this. Everything else is fine.

 

[Anti]

I think we need to have some profound discussion before we make anything official. Besides, the metagame is aklways evolving and it would be a bad idea to close discussion on it IMO.

Obviously everything uber is official. so no arguing that.

And seriously, what is luxray doing in BL? That thing is in NO way too powerful for UUs, there are better pokemon for sure there.

 

[Faceless*]

Mamoswine is not OU, it's much more suited in BL