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Whats so bad about Johto?

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Vernikova

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    weedle_mchairybug said:
    Doesn't matter if it's part of the main plot or not. If it doesn't have a defined goal, then it simply is throwing bones, regardless. In order for it to truly matter, it should be completely defined, and have a definite end tacked on so we'd know what to expect. And for the record, Contests are NOT a main plot of the show (May would have stayed instead of being replaced if that were the case.)

    No it isn't. Everyone knows it isn't. Ash gets to participate in the show's main plot. That's not throwing a bone; that's having the biggest bone in the damn show. You want to know what's throwing a bone? The small list of things you listed is.

    Well, guess what, the world and the internet is never fun. Get used to it. The world isn't all fun and games. And relates in the sense that it deals with memorability of pokemon.

    Ooh, someone getting mad? Maybe upset? Let's try not get emotional here weedle-y.

    It generalizes the point too much. It'd never work due to the amount of Pokémon that have more than one appearance.
     

    Semidos

    Misty Fan Forever
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    Johto was good, because it was fun. It's not important having strong Gym Leaders to defeat, or characters development. This is really unnecesary. Show must be fun. Actually Johto fillers were the best than in every other region. Maybe DP has more action. But it isn't so fun. Maybe DP has more rivals and more pokemon evolutions, but simply it's not worth watching. Original series and beginning of AG were just good entertainment.
     
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    No it isn't. Everyone knows it isn't. Ash gets to participate in the show's main plot. That's not throwing a bone; that's having the biggest bone in the damn show. You want to know what's throwing a bone? The small list of things you listed is.

    No... his main goal is trying to be a Pokemon Master, and that's the main plot. BUT! the goal is never defined, never given any actual steps that are absolutely essential to trying to achieve said goal, so it IS, in essence, throwing a bone at Ash, even though it is a main plotpoint. Stop being blinded by this and actually observe things for once. Wanna know how goals work? They have an endpoint where you have accomplished the goal, and most importantly they are defined completely. If the goal isn't clearly defined (as in, you don't know the exact parameters, the exact conclusions, the exact definition of said goal), then regardless if it is the main plot of the show, it IS throwing bones, even though it is, indeed the main plot point. Either the goal is completely, and uncontradictedly defined, or it isn't truly focused on, and it just serves as bone throws. It's that simple. Seeing how Ash's goal of becoming the worlds greatest Pokemon Master has never been defined at all, that means, whatever he did ultimately amounted to bone-throws, same as Misty. Either you say that it all is or it all isn't. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no exceptions. Call me a nihilist if you want. It doesn't matter, as the fact is that goals need to be absolutely defined in every way, shape or form in a story or in real life, as otherwise, it is bone throwing, regardless of it being part of the main plot.

    If you honestly think that it isn't, then enlighten me, give me the exact parameters, the exact goal, the exact definition of becoming a Pokemon Master without ANY contradictions whatsoever. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't ever say that what Ash does is NOT bone throws, even with it being the main plot of the anime.

    And Weedle, before you even get on my ass about this, all of Misty's pushed plot points that you've outlined are the writers' ideas to try and dodge the filler, get her to do something, and to try and make us remember she exists.

    And so is Ash's plotpoints in Johto, as ultimately, the only reason we knew he existed in Johto is because of his participating in Johto. And ultimately, that's exactly the situation Ash is in from the start. They never established an absolute concrete definition what a Pokemon Master is, so as far as I'm concerned or anyone else is concerned, he's filler as a result. In order for something to truly matter it must be defined, as otherwise, it's meaningless and nonexistant.
     

    Vernikova

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    weedle_mchairybug said:
    No... his main goal is trying to be a Pokemon Master, and that's the main plot. BUT! the goal is never defined, never given any actual steps that are absolutely essential to trying to achieve said goal, so it IS, in essence, throwing a bone at Ash, even though it is a main plotpoint. Stop being blinded by this and actually observe things for once. Wanna know how goals work? They have an endpoint where you have accomplished the goal, and most importantly they are defined completely. If the goal isn't clearly defined (as in, you don't know the exact parameters, the exact conclusions, the exact definition of said goal), then regardless if it is the main plot of the show, it IS throwing bones, even though it is, indeed the main plot point. Either the goal is completely, and uncontradictedly defined, or it isn't truly focused on, and it just serves as bone throws. It's that simple. Seeing how Ash's goal of becoming the worlds greatest Pokemon Master has never been defined at all, that means, whatever he did ultimately amounted to bone-throws, same as Misty. Either you say that it all is or it all isn't. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no exceptions. Call me a nihilist if you want. It doesn't matter, as the fact is that goals need to be absolutely defined in every way, shape or form in a story or in real life, as otherwise, it is bone throwing, regardless of it being part of the main plot.

    Except I am observing. You're just making assumptions that just because no one is saying "This will be a direct impact on becoming a Pokémon Master," he isn't advancing his dream. His goal is trying to become a Pokémon Master. Who says that winning enough leagues and all that jazz isn't not leading up to his goal? You can't so you can't say that bones are being thrown at Ash. I can't either. You can say so about Misty because she didn't do much of anhything similar to Ash who clearly trying to advance his goal by competing in the Pokémon League and the Batte Frontier. Except those bones that were thrown at her anyway.

    It's hilarious that you, out of all people, are telling me to stop being blind about this show.

    If you honestly think that it isn't, then enlighten me, give me the exact parameters, the exact goal, the exact definition of becoming a Pokemon Master without ANY contradictions whatsoever. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't ever say that what Ash does is NOT bone throws, even with it being the main plot of the anime.

    Except you can't. The creators never defined it because they want people to make up their own definition. I can give you any definition that hasn't been shown on the show and be correct because of that.
     

    RivalGator

    I hate them all.
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    I thought Johto was all right, but I was really mad that they left Silver out. That was the worst part. But other than that, I liked it an awful lot.
     
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    Except I am observing. You're just making assumptions that just because no one is saying "This will be a direct impact on becoming a Pokémon Master," he isn't advancing his dream. His goal is trying to become a Pokémon Master. Who says that winning enough leagues and all that jazz isn't not leading up to his goal? You can't so you can't say that bones are being thrown at Ash. I can't either. You can say so about Misty because she didn't do much of anhything similar to Ash who clearly trying to advance his goal by competing in the Pokémon League and the Batte Frontier. Except those bones that were thrown at her anyway.

    It's hilarious that you, out of all people, are telling me to stop being blind about this show.

    All right, look, if they truly cared about the whole "Pokemon Master" thing being an important plot point in the show, then Ash's story would have ENDED when he beat Brandon, as he has already proven himself to have become a Pokemon Master by defeating possibly the strongest trainer in the world (far stronger than even a regional champion), so he has no rival after that. Seeing how he didn't stop, and now he's LOSING against Gym Leaders, making it seem as though all of AG never happened, that ultimately PROVES that it is throwing bones, or at least very similar. As I said before, if it isn't defined, it is pointless, meaningless, and nonexistant.

    Except you can't. The creators never defined it because they want people to make up their own definition. I can give you any definition that hasn't been shown on the show and be correct because of that.

    Yeah, and the creators also deliberately kept Pikachu's gender in the dark in order to attract both genders, and that now cannot work with the advent of Where No Togepi has gone before. If they can do something as unthinkable as revealing officially Pikachu's gender, then they can certainly give a definition to a Pokemon Master.
     

    Vernikova

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    weedle_mchairybug said:
    All right, look, if they truly cared about the whole "Pokemon Master" thing being an important plot point in the show, then Ash's story would have ENDED when he beat Brandon, as he has already proven himself to have become a Pokemon Master by defeating possibly the strongest trainer in the world (far stronger than even a regional champion), so he has no rival after that. Seeing how he didn't stop, and now he's LOSING against Gym Leaders, making it seem as though all of AG never happened, that ultimately PROVES that it is throwing bones, or at least very similar. As I said before, if it isn't defined, it is pointless, meaningless, and nonexistant.

    Another assumption on your part. Who said that Brandon was the strongest trainer in the world? Perhaps a regional Champion or someone like Brandon isn't such a powerful trainer in that world. Which brings me to the point of the word "If" that you've just used. If he was one of the strongest trainers in the world, they would've likely stated that he was finally a Pokémon Master.

    Also, regarding Gym Leaders, it's obvious he can't win against everyone. Especially with newly captured Pokémon. Your last sentence doesn't even make sense in this case. Just because it isn't defined doesn't mean it's nonexistant. The title is clearly there in the show.

    Yeah, and the creators also deliberately kept Pikachu's gender in the dark in order to attract both genders, and that now cannot work with the advent of Where No Togepi has gone before. If they can do something as unthinkable as revealing officially Pikachu's gender, then they can certainly give a definition to a Pokemon Master.

    There've been hints before about Pikachu's gender. It was actually pretty obvious what its gender was as long as you watched the episodes in almost any saga. As I said, the creators don't want to state what it is so it won't happen until said otherwise.

    I win.
     
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    xxashxx

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    I liked Johto but the series was sort of a filler after the Orange Islands and the GS ball was never discovered so basically they did not finish the Johto era completely. The might in future episodes if the base any off of HG/SS though but I don't know that they will. I would like to see what happens with the GS ball as they need to finish that part.:)
     
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    Johto was the first of the series I watched, but I still like the original series better. Everything after Johto sucked :X
     

    Caelus

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    I don't really hate Johto, but one thing I dislike about it is the amount of fillers it had. :/ Most of them weren't so great in my opinion.
     

    XxDawnfanxX

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    I was a big fan of the Johto Region, I didn't have anything to really hate and I really enjoyed the series. I suppose since I loved Kanto and Johto came along and was similar but a whole new region excited me.
     

    Takoto

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    I really liked the Johto seasons... In my opinion, the anime went down-hill after it. Hoenn was alright. Sinnoh? Oh god, I can't even watch it without ether cringing or wanting to punch something.

    ...If we separeted the Sinnoh saga into it's own animé, it'd be the worst animé ever. Why? Dawn is... annoying? No, that's a massive under-statement, she's the worst character in the series by far, and Barry? Annoying as well. I'll stop ranting now.

    The point is, there are much, much worse seasons than Johto. The Orange Islands was... boring. Hoenn? Every episode was very...forgettable? Nothing was really brilliant about it, but it was rather boring. Sinnoh? Annoying to the point of being un-watchable.

    Johto had it's faults, but I thought it was quite good.
     

    Jolene

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    The Johto episodes put me off watching Pokemon for ages. The entire arc was horribly paced. Hardly anything interesting happened between the gym battles - it felt so tedious tuning in every week just to be greeted with poorly-concieved filler. When they decided to detour from the main adventure and take part in the Whirl Islands tournament - that's when I gave up on the show.

    I started watching the show again when Advanced Battle came on TV, and I quite liked it. The writers have definitely gotten better at pacing.
     
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    Johto was the first time the writers attempted a three year/season region, which is why we received so many terrible fillers and the horrible pacing. They now have gotten better at keeping things interesting.

    I have to disagree with many of you. I think the Johto saga is terrible. Sure, I liked it when I was younger, but now I can't stand it. I'm fond of the sagas that last only one season, which is why the original series and Battle Frontier are my favorites.
     
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    Filler is most peoples problem.
    Isn't it ironic that what is considered the best Pokemon generation by most has the most hated seasons on the show?
     
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    Filler is most peoples problem.
    Isn't it ironic that what is considered the best Pokemon generation by most has the most hated seasons on the show?

    I don't see why people have a problem with loads of fillers. They are just another episode IMO same with gym episodes. Filler or non-filler, I love all the episodes the same.
     
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    I personally like fillers, because even though it didn't contribute the main plot, the episodes were interesting. I think you guys were better off not watching every single episode week after week. I missed a lot of Johto episodes, which is probably why I actually enjoyed it. The reason I can't enjoy DP, is because I'm always going on serebii, and they have the episode pictures up or they have 1 pic and it ruins the whole episode for me. :/ They also state what happens as well. I wish they'd put the titles of new episodes in spoilers or something.
     

    Semidos

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    Johto has the best fillers ever. Master Quest was the best season which includes interesting Whirl Island arc. I agree newer seasons has not so many fillers, but if there is any, it it boring. Frankly. I still like watching old seasons (before AG). Ok, ok. Everybody has his favourite seasons, we must accept this.
     
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