• Our software update is now concluded. You will need to reset your password to log in. In order to do this, you will have to click "Log in" in the top right corner and then "Forgot your password?".
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.

Whats so bad about Johto?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MadaraUchiha.

Typhlosion Master
  • 297
    Posts
    15
    Years
    I dont get it, a lot of people say Johto (Seasons 3-5) were the worst/horrible. What is so bad about them? The last time I have seen a episode from them was when I was like 6 or so but I liked them. What is the reason most people didnt like those seasons?
     

    Vernikova

    Banned
  • 4,039
    Posts
    16
    Years
    Bad filler
    Character development
    Johto Pokémon were overshadowed much in the League by the Kanto Pokémon
    More than one character had no goal that the writers were working over the entire span
    Johto Pokémon as a whole
    Etc
     

    Semidos

    Misty Fan Forever
  • 183
    Posts
    14
    Years
    • Seen Aug 11, 2014
    I dont get it, a lot of people say Johto (Seasons 3-5) were the worst/horrible.
    Huh? I didn't notice. People which I know say that Johto was the best and DP is the worst. I think the same. Johto was the best. Good fillers, and storyline. Great characters. No Contests. Just Ash with his GYM Battles, what was better, because the show should be focused only on Ash. This is his show.
     
  • 2,688
    Posts
    19
    Years
    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    Bad filler

    Hoenn, BF, Sinnoh, and even Kanto/Orange Islands had bad filler. Your point?

    Character development

    When was character development bad? Heck, AG and DP also went through similar processes. Should you claim that it's bad as well?

    Johto Pokémon were overshadowed much in the League by the Kanto Pokémon

    Ok, that I might be able to agree with. However, they did much better than the Hoenn League (where the GLs were treated like how JJM are normally treated, and despite basically plowing through the Gym Leaders like they would JJM, they still stayed at Top 8)

    More than one character had no goal that the writers were working over the entire span

    Misty had the Water Pokemon Master goal, and if I must say, they did focus on it a bit (Whirl cup, the water race in Alto Mare, the fishing contest, her defeating a water gym leader, which, at the time of that episode airing, was a pretty big milestone as prior to that, none of the characters faced a Gym Leader other than Ash, regardless of whether said gym leader was an official Gym Leader or not.). Besides, her goal at least got more work by the writers than Brock, anyways, especially seeing how Brock barely had ANY episodes relating to his goal.

    Johto Pokémon as a whole

    Meh, I thought the Hoenn team's development was far worse, seeing how they basically demolished the Gym Leaders far too easily, and how despite Ash basically beating them as he would JJM, he still stayed at Top 8.
     

    Vernikova

    Banned
  • 4,039
    Posts
    16
    Years
    weedle_mchairybug said:
    Hoenn, BF, Sinnoh, and even Kanto/Orange Islands had bad filler. Your point?

    I enjoy those fillers over Johto's. That's the point.

    When was character development bad? Heck, AG and DP also went through similar processes. Should you claim that it's bad as well?

    Lack of character development is what I meant.

    Misty had the Water Pokemon Master goal, and if I must say, they did focus on it a bit (Whirl cup, the water race in Alto Mare, the fishing contest, her defeating a water gym leader, which, at the time of that episode airing, was a pretty big milestone as prior to that, none of the characters faced a Gym Leader other than Ash, regardless of whether said gym leader was an official Gym Leader or not.). Besides, her goal at least got more work by the writers than Brock, anyways, especially seeing how Brock barely had ANY episodes relating to his goal.

    Those are a few bones tossed her way. Far less than focusing on her goal.

    Meh, I thought the Hoenn team's development was far worse, seeing how they basically demolished the Gym Leaders far too easily, and how despite Ash basically beating them as he would JJM, he still stayed at Top 8.

    Some of the Hoenn Pokémon were rather memorable though. Corphish comes to mind quickly.
     
  • 2,688
    Posts
    19
    Years
    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    I enjoy those fillers over Johto's. That's the point.



    Lack of character development is what I meant.

    Misty went through Character development, as she had a few flashbacks to her past, and she also went from being a complete hothead to somewhat cooled down.

    Those are a few bones tossed her way. Far less than focusing on her goal.

    If you are going to say that, then Ash's gyms and even the leagues are also nothing more than just a few bones tossed in his way, as well, as there was absolutely no definition for a Pokemon Master so as far as we're concerned, he's not focusing on his goal, so he's just as useless as Misty. See the paradox? If you have to say that what she did was bones tossed her way, then you'll have to say the same thing about what Ash does as well, as that is the exact same thing.

    Some of the Hoenn Pokémon were rather memorable though. Corphish comes to mind quickly.

    Yeah, and I will most likely cite all 493 pokemon, doesn't necessarily mean that they are that good. Besides which, I just don't like it when rookie pokemon beat Gym Leaders at a very easy rate in a manner similar to JJM and Caterpie in episode 3, as that makes the GLs, which are supposed to be experts, seem like a total joke.
     

    Vernikova

    Banned
  • 4,039
    Posts
    16
    Years
    weedle_mchairybug said:
    Misty went through Character development, as she had a few flashbacks to her past, and she also went from being a complete hothead to somewhat cooled down.

    One person going through small development, which took away anything interesting from her character, doesn't keep Johto from having bad character development.

    If you are going to say that, then Ash's gyms and even the leagues are also nothing more than just a few bones tossed in his way, as well, as there was absolutely no definition for a Pokemon Master so as far as we're concerned, he's not focusing on his goal, so he's just as useless as Misty. See the paradox? If you have to say that what she did was bones tossed her way, then you'll have to say the same thing about what Ash does as well, as that is the exact same thing.

    Did you just try to use wordplay on me? The reason why Gym battls aren't bones is because they're the main plot of the show, along with Contests for the girl too. Unlike these animé-only side tournaments and one episode plots that don't change anything in the series by that much. It's obvious that a Pokémon Master in the animé has some connection with battling, which is why he participates in battles, so he furthers his goals by battling trainers and participating in the leagues.

    Misty wasn't given much besides those one episode battles and that small tournament anyway.

    Nice try but no.

    Yeah, and I will most likely cite all 493 pokemon, doesn't necessarily mean that they are that good. Besides which, I just don't like it when rookie pokemon beat Gym Leaders at a very easy rate in a manner similar to JJM and Caterpie in episode 3, as that makes the GLs, which are supposed to be experts, seem like a total joke.

    Which has nothing to do with what I said.

    You're starting to become no fun Mr. weedle. I'm losing my interest rather quickly.
     
  • 2,688
    Posts
    19
    Years
    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    One person going through small development, which took away anything interesting from her character, doesn't keep Johto from having bad character development.



    Did you just try to use wordplay on me? The reason why Gym battls aren't bones is because they're the main plot of the show, along with Contests for the girl too. Unlike these animé-only side tournaments and one episode plots that don't change anything in the series by that much. It's obvious that a Pokémon Master in the animé has some connection with battling, which is why he participates in battles, so he furthers his goals by battling trainers and participating in the leagues.

    Misty wasn't given much besides those one episode battles and that small tournament anyway.

    Nice try but no.

    Doesn't matter if it's part of the main plot or not. If it doesn't have a defined goal, then it simply is throwing bones, regardless. In order for it to truly matter, it should be completely defined, and have a definite end tacked on so we'd know what to expect. And for the record, Contests are NOT a main plot of the show (May would have stayed instead of being replaced if that were the case.)

    Which has nothing to do with what I said.

    You're starting to become no fun Mr. weedle. I'm losing my interest rather quickly.

    Well, guess what, the world and the internet is never fun. Get used to it. The world isn't all fun and games. And relates in the sense that it deals with memorability of pokemon.
     
  • 165
    Posts
    14
    Years
    • Seen Jan 28, 2012
    I dont get it, a lot of people say Johto (Seasons 3-5) were the worst/horrible. What is so bad about them? The last time I have seen a episode from them was when I was like 6 or so but I liked them. What is the reason most people didnt like those seasons?

    I liked Johto until the end of Master Quest... That's when it took a turn to become pretty bad, like the Unown episode, or the mistakes during the beginning of the Johto league. (Can't remember them off the top of my head) Then it got better again, not sure what happened there though. But it was only a few episodes, the rest was absolutely fine.
     

    pyronical

    KOFFING!
  • 32
    Posts
    14
    Years
    • Seen Mar 9, 2010
    Huh? I didn't notice. People which I know say that Johto was the best and DP is the worst. I think the same. Johto was the best. Good fillers, and storyline. Great characters. No Contests. Just Ash with his GYM Battles, what was better, because the show should be focused only on Ash. This is his show.


    I agree completely with Semidos... most of what I've read, people generally think Johto was the best and I'm one of them.

    On a side note, Season 3's intro is the best.
     
  • 2,688
    Posts
    19
    Years
    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    I may have read some posts disparaging Johto before on SPPf and BMGf, as well as to a lesser extent, Pokecommunity, but I've watced the Johto episodes on that CN marathon that was leading up to the premiere of DP on June 2nd-June 3rd, and I felt that Johto wasn't as bad as those posts made it out to be. It also was apparent to me that Misty actually did far more in those episodes than was hinted. Even IF they were mere bone throws (which honestly, seeing how Ash's goal is never defined and given specific parameters as to how to achieve it, Ash's gyms and even the league is ultimately just bone throwing as well, regardless of whether it is part of the main plot point ["Pokemon Master?" Hah! They'd need to define and give the exact parameters and steps to acheving that goal that is absolutely uncontradictory in order for his gyms and leagues to be non-bone throws in my eyes.]), she at least did far more than Brock in that season anyways.
     
  • 1,402
    Posts
    18
    Years
    I liked Johto a lot. More than DP. DP doesn't really interest me. I've seen all the DP episodes so far, then I go back to watch Johto and I like the Johto episodes more. (I haven't seen every Johto episode, but I go see the ones I haven't seen and I like those more.) I loved the Lugia episodes, the Whirl Cup, everything. Misty, Casey, Sakura, Richie, Harrison, etc are more likable than the characters now. I love Bayleef. I like Ash's Johto pokemon the most. I loved when Bayleef battled Harrison's Houndoom and prevented it from using Flamethrower and Crunch by using Vine Whip, and won. I loved Master Quest. The only thing I didn't like was when Misty left. I wish she could have stayed for Hoenn instead of having Max there. :/ I would have liked to know Misty's reaction to Team Aqua because they're both fans of water pokemon and the water.

    Back then, it was if Ash had to earn the gym leader's respect. Now, they're nice to him. I guess the writers wanted to be nicer to him this season (meaning DP)?
     
  • 2,688
    Posts
    19
    Years
    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    I liked Johto a lot. More than DP. DP doesn't really interest me. I've seen all the DP episodes so far, then I go back to watch Johto and I like the Johto episodes more. (I haven't seen every Johto episode, but I go see the ones I haven't seen and I like those more.) I loved the Lugia episodes, the Whirl Cup, everything. Misty, Casey, Sakura, Richie, Harrison, etc are more likable than the characters now. I love Bayleef. I like Ash's Johto pokemon the most. I loved when Bayleef battled Harrison's Houndoom and prevented it from using Flamethrower and Crunch by using Vine Whip, and won. I loved Master Quest. The only thing I didn't like was when Misty left. I wish she could have stayed for Hoenn instead of having Max there. :/ I would have liked to know Misty's reaction to Team Aqua because they're both fans of water pokemon and the water.

    Back then, it was if Ash had to earn the gym leader's respect. Now, they're nice to him. I guess the writers wanted to be nicer to him this season (meaning DP)?

    Going by the ratings in Japan, I tend to think that most people might agree with you.
     

    Mew~

    THE HOST IS BROKEN
  • 4,163
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen Apr 13, 2016
    I like all the seasons... im just like that XD
    I like the newer seasons better though... they always find a way to improve on the anime :) People were bored of the fillers so they tried adding contests (liked by loads of people, not every one :\)
    I liked the battles in johto but their was not enough! Other then the battles i think the only reason i like it is because... nostalgia or... i just cant hate it XD its pokemon 8D

    Going by the ratings in Japan, I tend to think that most people might agree with you.
    have you even seen the ratings? Most of the country watches it... it has great ratings.. not here... in japan XDXD That includes pokemon sunday 8D

    even if they are bad.. i think people dont like pokemon DP becuase they have lost interest in pokemon and keep clinging on to the old episodes XD (ill admit i will one day... :\ when im 77 years old)

    No matter how great the next gen of pokemon will be there will still be a few crying about how rubbish it is and they miss the old days... GET OUT OF THE ROCK AND SMELL THE FREASH AIR!!! Kanto and johto are gone :\ GET OVER IT!!!!

    Again: NOSTALGIA JUNK NEEDS ITS OWN STICKY THREAD!!!!!

    People, dont take the stuff im saying personally :\ THIS IS DEBATE
     
    Last edited:
  • 2,688
    Posts
    19
    Years
    • Seen Aug 29, 2020
    I like all the seasons... im just like that XD
    I like the newer seasons better though... they always find a way to improve on the anime :) People were bored of the fillers so they tried adding contests (liked by loads of people, not every one :\)
    I liked the battles in johto but their was not enough! Other then the battles i think the only reason i like it is because... nostalgia or... i just cant hate it XD its pokemon 8D


    have you even seen the ratings? Most of the country watches it... it has great ratings.. not here... in japan XDXD That includes pokemon sunday 8D

    From what little I've seen of the ratings, it was around 5.5, maybe 6.5, and Johto was about 8.8, tops. That's not "most" of the country. And I know this thanks to Nickstr. Heck, it's also implied that prior to DP, the worst ratings of any japanese episode of Pokemon belonged to Queen of the Serpentine. That implies that DP had managed to sink even further than the lowest rated episode of AG, and formerly the lowest rated episode of the Pokemon Anime ever.

    even if they are bad.. i think people dont like pokemon DP becuase they have lost interest in pokemon and keep clinging on to the old episodes XD (ill admit i will one day... :\ when im 77 years old)

    No matter how great the next gen of pokemon will be there will still be a few crying about how rubbish it is and they miss the old days... GET OUT OF THE ROCK AND SMELL THE FREASH AIR!!! Kanto and johto are gone :\ GET OVER IT!!!!

    Again: NOSTALGIA JUNK NEEDS ITS OWN STICKY THREAD!!!!!

    I have been out of a rock for a very long time. And yes, Kanto and Johto may not be current anymore, but that doesn't mean that the writers should just cheat their audience by making bad writing, nor should they make writings that cause ratings to sink even further. Ask Nickstr if you don't believe me, he himself served as a witness of how the ratings are going down severely.
     

    DonRoyale

    Get on my choppa!
  • 1,723
    Posts
    15
    Years
    Let's breakdown why Johto was bad, and try to differ from Vernikova's posts, since she kinda took most of the main arguments I had:

    -The team was thoroughly underdeveloped and overachieved at everything. Much like in the games, the Gym Leaders were far too weak, and the only one that provided an inch of difficulty had to be taken down by Kanto Pokemon, which brings me to the next point...

    -The Kanto team overshadowed it. As much as I hate a contrived evolution, evolved Pokemon are simply more capable, and since there was only one evolution with his entire Johto team, it didn't help his Johto team make an impression. In fact, his most notably capable Johto Pokemon (until Phanpy evolved in the Battle Frontier), Heracross, was shafted in the tailend of the region because it had problems with one of Ash's Kanto Pokemon.

    -Extremely contrived and non-canon plot points. Since the writers couldn't simply make Ash and co. appear out of thin air in Goldenrod to stop Team Rocket's takeover of the Johto media, they had to make another Team Rocket subplot somehow. In comes the Whirl Islands arc, which was a bit of a distraction with an arbitrary legendary and the return of an oft-forgotten character in Richie. Then there was the Whirl Cup, which, IMO, gave Totodile and Kingler (again, see my last point) time to shine, and it gave Misty something to do, something she severely lacked. Also, there was the Lake of Rage subplot, which was also poorly handled because Lance's anime debut overshadowed it because OMGDRAGONGUY.

    -FILLER. Yes, Vern mentioned it earlier, but Johto had a lot of filler. And I don't care what any of you think; none of it was good. Half of Johto didn't even advance the plot, and the one plot point that was clear from even before Johto started got shafted in favor of more contrived plot points, and they arbitrarily made it into a movie so that we'd forgive them. I don't buy it. Anyway, there could've been much more character development / evolutions had 90% of Johto not been terrible, poorly-handled filler.

    -Teasing the audience. Larvitar. That is all.

    -A simple matter of fanboying the games. Face it, half of you only say Johto's decent because you love the games and you don't want anyone to say anything bad about them. The reason Johto failed in the anime was the same reason it failed in the games; it failed as a standalone region and needed to fall on Kanto to have any substance. By itself, it can't really do much, and is a weak, boring region. (With good music, I'll admit.)

    -Brock and Misty were there? Really? I couldn't notice with how much they focused on Ash. Oh, but then Brock had three evolutions in Johto...right...that's three times more than Ash had...Can you smell the distraction? And Weedle, before you even get on my ass about this, all of Misty's pushed plot points that you've outlined are the writers' ideas to try and dodge the filler, get her to do something, and to try and make us remember she exists. The fact of the matter is, so much more could've been done with the both of them. They did a half-decent job with Misty (though...Politoed? Really?), but Brock's only redeeming factors were Foretress and Crobat.

    -The sheer length of it. It got so boring, so fast, that I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one here) just wanted it to end after a while. He has his eighth badge, FFS; stop trying to force a tired plot point down our throats at the last minute. He's not going to catch that Larvitar. He's not getting his Lapras back. Just go to the League, lose, baww for two seconds and then MOVE ON. KTHNX.

    -The lack of interesting character conflict. Gary was only seen at the very end of the Orange Islands, 2-3 episodes in the journey through Johto, then on his return in the Silver League Conference, where they battled and it could've just as easily happened in Kanto (albeit, the result would've been different, but it would've cemented Ash's goals. What conflict did his loss to Richie create? None; he saw him once -- maybe twice, if my memory is off -- and they were friendly towards one another.) because most of their Pokemon were Kanto Pokemon anyway. Ash had no other concrete rivals in Johto, and in Hoenn, the spotlight of character conflict was put on May, who had more rivals than Ash could ever hope to have. (The one-shot appearances by Harrison, Morrison and Tyson don't count. Don't give me that bullcrap.) At least Sinnoh fixed this by giving what's probably the most interesting conflict character thus far in Paul.

    So don't try to tell me Johto was great. It was the worst season, by far, and it lasted for much longer than it needed to. And what did the extra time do to it? Nothing but give me and I'm sure many others a gigantic headache. It was easily the worst season in Pokemon. And if you don't like Contests, you're ignoring half of what makes Pokemon interesting to watch in the first place, for reasons of bravado or ignorance or whatever your deluded reasons are. They at least give someone other than Ash the spotlight for a second.

    Yeah, Johto sucked. Sorry. It's true. :|
     
    Status
    Not open for further replies.
    Back
    Top