Whats so bad about Johto?

[randomspot555]

You need to calm down, and stop with the attitude.

Click the report button. Otherwise, sometimes people disagree with you. Deal with it.

I do have willpower. If I didn't have willpower, I'd be acting the way you're acting. First of all, I NEVER read the anime spoilers forum and I don't do into Episode Discussion threads revelant to episodes I haven't seen. I don't read the spoilers. I go to the site to find out about the games, not the anime, but they have the episode pictures in the middle and on the sides with the title that gives away what happens in the episode. I go to serebii.net, and it says on the side "up next in Japan" with the picture and everything. I don't go to the forums unless it's to speak to my friends on there. I don't go in the anime section. I'm talking about pictures on the front page.

It's not like those give away anything. If the episode is "Pikachu goes to the Beach!" and it shows a picture of Pikachu on the beach, is it really that big of a spoiler?

Aren't you the person who watches Pokemon for fun? The only thing a Pokemon episode title or one picture could give away is a hint of what the plot could be. And you don't care for plot so...I fail to see what you're complaining about.

A lot of you seem to be getting aggravated with anyone who likes Johto, and dislikes Sinnoh. I've seen every Sinnoh episode, and was bored watching most of them. None of the characters appeal to me, except for Lyra and Khoury.

And I think those are two of the worst characters. And it has nothing to do with them being from Johto, but moreso their horrible personalities. If Lyra falls into obscurity along with Duplica and Ritchie, I'll be very happy.

Khory...meh, he was okay. Could be decent, but I doubt it.

 

[Sweet Smoochum]

Click the report button. Otherwise, sometimes people disagree with you. Deal with it.

It's not like those give away anything. If the episode is "Pikachu goes to the Beach!" and it shows a picture of Pikachu on the beach, is it really that big of a spoiler?

And I think those are two of the worst characters. And it has nothing to do with them being from Johto, but moreso their horrible personalities. If Lyra falls into obscurity along with Duplica and Ritchie, I'll be very happy.

Khory...meh, he was okay. Could be decent, but I doubt it.

I made my point clear. They're no reason for me to.

Dawn's first gym battle, Ash gets Gible, Ash's Infernape evolves in episode with Empoleon, etc. Yes, that doesn't spoil anything. ;)

That's okay. You don't have to like those characters just because I do. I personally liked Duplica and Richie. I liked the episode where Ash, Misty, Brock and Duplica dressed up like Team Rocket. I liked Richie for nicknaming his Pokemon. Lyra was an instant favorite of mine when I saw she was the new protagonist for HeartGold and SoulSilver. I'm happy she made some appearances in the anime, and I'm happy she has a Chikorita. (That was my first Pokemon.)

Out of every season in Johto, I loved Master Quest the most. I loved the Pokemon league episodes. Bayleef vs Houndoom and Charizard vs Blaziken were my two favorite battles. I liked Misty's Corsola. I liked the Whirl Cup. I like the episodes with Lugia and the baby named Silver.

 

[Jolene]

I've seen every Sinnoh episode, and was bored watching most of them. None of the characters appeal to me, except for Lyra and Khoury. .

That kinda invalidates everything, really.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Please tell me what is required of a Water Pokemon Master, citing specific tasks and/or events to compete and win in to advance that goal.

I'll give you a hint: It's vaguely/not defined for a reason. The entire franchise is about coming up with the answers for yourself. That's why there's ambiguity in so much of it.

Ok, for specific tasks, there is the Whirl Cup (which is explicitly stated to make one a Water Pokemon Master.).

As for the whole "ambiguity" issue, it's exactly why Pikachu was never given a gender up until now (Ikue Ohtani stated in an interview that the writers deliberately kept Pikachu's gender vague in an attempt to get both genders to connect with it.), however, starting with DP142, that ended up changing (even with the advent of DP, people still insisted that Pikachu has not been confirmed to be a male due to the fact that games=/=anime and that his not having a heart-shaped tail was just for convenience issues and not a true confirmation.). If they can change their minds in regards to Pikachu's gender, then so can their not defining what a Pokemon Master is.

 

[randomspot555]

Ok, for specific tasks, there is the Whirl Cup (which is explicitly stated to make one a Water Pokemon Master.).

You win one competition and you become a Water Pokemon Master? Seriously? Sounds like something that's fairly easy to achieve.

 

[Kimicatdemon]

Click the report button. Otherwise, sometimes people disagree with you. Deal with it.

Okay, this is kind of off topic to say, but, wat? You acknowledge you are stepping out of line and continue anyway? Braincells... you need them....

To make this post on topic, I kinda felt that johto should have served more of a reason to explain why Ash keeps seeing ho-oh... It's like, "Oh Ho-oh must really like you!" Well guess what, Richie is almost, if not exactly the same... why does he not see Ho-oh? Why did you only place Falkner is one episode? WHY DID YOU MAKE HIM SO CONFUSED OVER THE TYPE HE HATES? FALKNER, BIRDS HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OVER GRASS, YOU SHOULD LIKE THEM.

On the plus side, Gary's cloak was full of awesome and win... Too bad we didn't get to see him much in this arc, DESPITE BEING ASH'S RIVAL AT THIS POINT STILL. You would think he would get a bit more screen time or something considering the last arc made him look like....err...how do I say this and be nice....a jerk? Yeah, let's go with that. He was a total jerk in the last arc, so this arc should have given him some screen time so one could view just HOW different he is. But no....

Finally, The only gym leaders that were any good development wise were Whitney and Morty. Gym leaders are KIND OF IMPORTANT on Ash's journey, so they should ALL be solid characters. They messed up on the first one, so it's hard to take the rest seriously...I really just stopped watching it for a bit after Falkner's appearance, then I started watching towards the end of Whitney's appearance because I wanted to see Morty. At least he was given some good justice. His buddy is still crazy in my opinion though.... but in a nice way... I mean... come on... PURPLE SUUUIIIITTT.

 

[randomspot555]

Okay, this is kind of off topic to say, but, wat? You acknowledge you are stepping out of line and continue anyway? Braincells... you need them....

No. The proper way to deal with one who is deemed problematic isn't to call them out in public, because that does nothing. It's to report it to the staff. I was simply instructing the user how to do that. I highly doubt I've done anything to warrant an infraction or any type of staff action, but if a user thinks I do, they should do something about it.

Speaking of braincells, it is "what" not "wat".

I kinda felt that johto should have served more of a reason to explain why Ash keeps seeing ho-oh...

Ho-Oh is basically the plot-device to keep Ash going. He usually sees him right before he goes to a new region.

 

[sanny the hedgehog]

Johto was the first of the series I watched, but I still like the original series better. Everything after Johto sucked :X

i completely agree with that statement, my good sir!!

johto and the original series were the best ones evur!!!
and like you said, everything from there went completely downhill.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

You win one competition and you become a Water Pokemon Master? Seriously? Sounds like something that's fairly easy to achieve.

Not exactly, as you have to fight through dozens of trainers before you can attempt to get to the quarterfinals, let alone the finals, and there is a pretty likely chance that the trainer will also end up not making it beyond the qualification round as well. If anything, it is actually a very difficult attempt that might require a few retries to get to (IE, you have to rechallenge the Whirl Cup from the beginning.). Even if it was, if we go by the whole "You have to beat a league to become a Pokemon Master" definition, then what Ash has to do is fairly easy to achieve, as well.

 

[Semidos]

Not exactly, as you have to fight through dozens of trainers before you can attempt to get to the quarterfinals, let alone the finals, and there is a pretty likely chance that the trainer will also end up not making it beyond the qualification round as well. If anything, it is actually a very difficult attempt that might require a few retries to get to (IE, you have to rechallenge the Whirl Cup from the beginning.). Even if it was, if we go by the whole "You have to beat a league to become a Pokemon Master" definition, then what Ash has to do is fairly easy to achieve, as well.

Yes. You're right. Beeing Water Pokemon Master is exactly the same thing like being Pokemon Master. It's not properly defined what you have to do to be him.

 

[Kimicatdemon]

No. The proper way to deal with one who is deemed problematic isn't to call them out in public, because that does nothing. It's to report it to the staff. I was simply instructing the user how to do that. I highly doubt I've done anything to warrant an infraction or any type of staff action, but if a user thinks I do, they should do something about it.

Speaking of braincells, it is "what" not "wat".



Ho-Oh is basically the plot-device to keep Ash going. He usually sees him right before he goes to a new region.

"wat" was intentional. I spelt it in that way because I could no believe the level of intelligence I am seeing. You're aggravating everyone by trying to change their opinions with the way you view things, however, they have brought up many points, some being repeated over and over. I'm sure they can call out ten times the amount of events of proof on their behalf than what you have told us, seeing how you keep repeating the same events over and over.

If they need to have Ho-Oh be his plot device, they need to have it be a bit more active and less scarcely seen. especially in Johto. Mostly because A. It's counter part is there B. The towers and the three beast are connected... And yet it was only mentioned here and there. We saw more Lugia than Ho-Oh and guess who the plot device in question is.

 

[CliveKoopa]

*sigh* If only the anime was more like the games......

That will never happen. The anime will never have TMs/HMs or living, breathing creatures being shoved into a PC and Ash beating the Elite Four. The anime tends to have a more realistic logic and keeps all game mechanics out.

 

[randomspot555]

"wat" was intentional. I spelt it in that way because I could no believe the level of intelligence I am seeing. You're aggravating everyone by trying to change their opinions with the way you view things,

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions.

I'm simply presenting my side of both my opinions and their lines of thought.

"Johto got better ratings": So what, popularity doesn't mean it's better.

"Johto wasn't so commercialized": Yes it was. It promoted the Pokemon franchise just like Kanto promoted Kanto, Hoenn promoted Hoenn, and Sinnoh promoted Sinnoh. The double standard here is ridiculous.

I don't know how long you've been reading this anime forum, but this isn't so much anime discussion as much as it is complaining about the anime.

however, they have brought up many points, some being repeated over and over.

Many of their points don't make any sense. If people like Johto better for any subjective reason, that's good for them. Nothing I can do about that.

The poster who doesn't care about character development and evolutions and just wants a fun Pokemon episode? Ok, then clearly Sinnoh won't be her taste. She knows what she likes.

But crap like blaming Sinnoh for promoting the HG/SS games is...well, crap.

I'm sure they can call out ten times the amount of events of proof on their behalf than what you have told us, seeing how you keep repeating the same events over and over.

You haven't been here long enough. Weedle has been repeating his schtick for the better part of four years.

If they need to have Ho-Oh be his plot device, they need to have it be a bit more active and less scarcely seen. especially in Johto. Mostly because A. It's counter part is there B. The towers and the three beast are connected... And yet it was only mentioned here and there. We saw more Lugia than Ho-Oh and guess who the plot device in question is.

The Legendary Pokemon in the anime have always been strange. Some are heavily featured, others seem reserved for the movies. Look at the mess with the GS Ball. Celebi was supposed to be in the anime seires, but then they were told they were going to use him in one of the Johto movies.

It seems that the anime producers take a cautious approach to Legendary Pokemon in the anime. They don't want to do anything too definitive with them so the movies can still do whatever.

Seriously, about the repetitiveness of my posts: You can say the same of them too. I didn't post on this board for like weeks, maybe months. I come back to see what's up, and it's the same crap. Complaining threads vastly outweigh threads productively discussing the anime, and a few threads that had potential getting hijacked.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

That will never happen. The anime will never have TMs/HMs or living, breathing creatures being shoved into a PC and Ash beating the Elite Four. The anime tends to have a more realistic logic and keeps all game mechanics out.

Not that I care one way or another in terms of how the Sinnoh League turns out or not, but wasn't it supposedly implied that Ash will actually beat the Sinnoh League and face the Sinnoh Elite 4 in a tournament as well? If such is the case, It's possible that he might beat at least one this time around.

Again, not that I particularly care whether he wins the league and manages to challenge the Elite 4 in Sinnoh or not (The only thing that I truly desire in this case is that Ash get to the Top 4 this time around, at least.), just pointing something out.

"Johto got better ratings": So what, popularity doesn't mean it's better.

Didn't really stop people from panicking to stay on the air, though. I mean, if there is truly a difference, why is it that people still react as if this will be the show's last days (by "they" I mean corporate executive, of course). They of all people should know there is a difference.

"Johto wasn't so commercialized": Yes it was. It promoted the Pokemon franchise just like Kanto promoted Kanto, Hoenn promoted Hoenn, and Sinnoh promoted Sinnoh. The double standard here is ridiculous.

I really wouldn't say that it was really THAT commercialized compared to, say, Sinnoh. In Johto, most of the plotlines were Anime-only, with the only things tying it to the game material being the Bug Catching Contest, Jasmine needing medicene for Amphy, the Red Gyarados plotline (kind of) and I think that's it. The Anime never covered the Team Rocket Heist on the radio tower, Falkner was never stated or even implied to have inherited his gym from his dad (on a related note, he also seemed to have a cockier personality in the anime.), they omitted Silver, they relocated the League Championship to an anime only location, and even the Red Gyarados plotline omitted the Generator part. Likewise, with DP, they pretty much emulated the games plotline almost completely. I think the only real difference in the anime was the omission of the Bomb subplot. Heck they even emulated the Gym Leader's parties perfectly. Yes, Johto did ultimately promote Gen II, but it at least didn't do it to the extent that almost the entire plotline was an exact copy/paste of the game plotline (Which I think is what Semidos and some others were complaining about.).

I don't know how long you've been reading this anime forum, but this isn't so much anime discussion as much as it is complaining about the anime.

Honestly, it doesn't really make that much of a difference, anyhow. All discussions are are an excuse to complain now. In several of my classes seem to have the teacher complaining about how history went or how the textbook sucked or something like that.

About Ho-Oh, considering Channeling the Battle Zone had May spotting Ho-Oh before Ash did (never mind the fact that pretty much everyone in the area saw Ho-Oh there as well, and at least one of them [Brock] definitely shouldn't have seen it seeing how he's not pure of heart.), as well as the fact that Ho-Oh wasn't even included in "Home is where the Start is," I'm not sure if it should even be considered a plot point anymore.

The poster who doesn't care about character development and evolutions and just wants a fun Pokemon episode? Ok, then clearly Sinnoh won't be her taste. She knows what she likes.

I don't think that Semidos didn't care about character development or anything like that. Otherwise, I think his reaction to how Misty was like in Johto would have been the exact opposite of his loyalty to her. And Yes, Misty did receive development. Certainly moreso than Brock, anyways.

 

[randomspot555]

Not that I care one way or another in terms of how the Sinnoh League turns out or not, but wasn't it supposedly implied that Ash will actually beat the Sinnoh League and face the Sinnoh Elite 4 in a tournament as well? If such is the case, It's possible that he might beat at least one this time around.

There's been no implications. It's just the Sinnoh E4 and specifically the Champion have been particularly active in Sinnoh.

What I remember about the E4, and this was a long time ago and don't remember where it came from, is that you have to win all the regional leagues and then you face the E4 in your native region. Anybody confirm this? I know something like this was mentioned in an episode, but I can't remember for the life of me where.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

There's been no implications. It's just the Sinnoh E4 and specifically the Champion have been particularly active in Sinnoh.

What I remember about the E4, and this was a long time ago and don't remember where it came from, is that you have to win all the regional leagues and then you face the E4 in your native region. Anybody confirm this? I know something like this was mentioned in an episode, but I can't remember for the life of me where.

I think it was stated that in order to face the Elite 4 in the Anime, you have to win the league. Even then, it has to be in the region that you won it in. I think it was in the episode where Dawn (or rather, her Buizel) challenges Lucian.

 

[CliveKoopa]

Not that I care one way or another in terms of how the Sinnoh League turns out or not, but wasn't it supposedly implied that Ash will actually beat the Sinnoh League and face the Sinnoh Elite 4 in a tournament as well? If such is the case, It's possible that he might beat at least one this time around.

Where was it implied that Ash will face the Elite Four? I don't recall anywhere in the anime where it says he will face them or even beat the Sinnoh League.

 

[Charmander__]

All I'ma say is JOHTO WAS THE BEST

 

[tough]

Let's breakdown why Johto was bad, and try to differ from Vernikova's posts, since she kinda took most of the main arguments I had:

-The team was thoroughly underdeveloped and overachieved at everything. Much like in the games, the Gym Leaders were far too weak, and the only one that provided an inch of difficulty had to be taken down by Kanto Pokemon, which brings me to the next point...

-The Kanto team overshadowed it. As much as I hate a contrived evolution, evolved Pokemon are simply more capable, and since there was only one evolution with his entire Johto team, it didn't help his Johto team make an impression. In fact, his most notably capable Johto Pokemon (until Phanpy evolved in the Battle Frontier), Heracross, was shafted in the tailend of the region because it had problems with one of Ash's Kanto Pokemon.

-Extremely contrived and non-canon plot points. Since the writers couldn't simply make Ash and co. appear out of thin air in Goldenrod to stop Team Rocket's takeover of the Johto media, they had to make another Team Rocket subplot somehow. In comes the Whirl Islands arc, which was a bit of a distraction with an arbitrary legendary and the return of an oft-forgotten character in Richie. Then there was the Whirl Cup, which, IMO, gave Totodile and Kingler (again, see my last point) time to shine, and it gave Misty something to do, something she severely lacked. Also, there was the Lake of Rage subplot, which was also poorly handled because Lance's anime debut overshadowed it because OMGDRAGONGUY.

-FILLER. Yes, Vern mentioned it earlier, but Johto had a lot of filler. And I don't care what any of you think; none of it was good. Half of Johto didn't even advance the plot, and the one plot point that was clear from even before Johto started got shafted in favor of more contrived plot points, and they arbitrarily made it into a movie so that we'd forgive them. I don't buy it. Anyway, there could've been much more character development / evolutions had 90% of Johto not been terrible, poorly-handled filler.

-Teasing the audience. Larvitar. That is all.

-A simple matter of fanboying the games. Face it, half of you only say Johto's decent because you love the games and you don't want anyone to say anything bad about them. The reason Johto failed in the anime was the same reason it failed in the games; it failed as a standalone region and needed to fall on Kanto to have any substance. By itself, it can't really do much, and is a weak, boring region. (With good music, I'll admit.)

-Brock and Misty were there? Really? I couldn't notice with how much they focused on Ash. Oh, but then Brock had three evolutions in Johto...right...that's three times more than Ash had...Can you smell the distraction? And Weedle, before you even get on my ass about this, all of Misty's pushed plot points that you've outlined are the writers' ideas to try and dodge the filler, get her to do something, and to try and make us remember she exists. The fact of the matter is, so much more could've been done with the both of them. They did a half-decent job with Misty (though...Politoed? Really?), but Brock's only redeeming factors were Foretress and Crobat.

-The sheer length of it. It got so boring, so fast, that I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one here) just wanted it to end after a while. He has his eighth badge, FFS; stop trying to force a tired plot point down our throats at the last minute. He's not going to catch that Larvitar. He's not getting his Lapras back. Just go to the League, lose, baww for two seconds and then MOVE ON. KTHNX.

-The lack of interesting character conflict. Gary was only seen at the very end of the Orange Islands, 2-3 episodes in the journey through Johto, then on his return in the Silver League Conference, where they battled and it could've just as easily happened in Kanto (albeit, the result would've been different, but it would've cemented Ash's goals. What conflict did his loss to Richie create? None; he saw him once -- maybe twice, if my memory is off -- and they were friendly towards one another.) because most of their Pokemon were Kanto Pokemon anyway. Ash had no other concrete rivals in Johto, and in Hoenn, the spotlight of character conflict was put on May, who had more rivals than Ash could ever hope to have. (The one-shot appearances by Harrison, Morrison and Tyson don't count. Don't give me that bullcrap.) At least Sinnoh fixed this by giving what's probably the most interesting conflict character thus far in Paul.

So don't try to tell me Johto was great. It was the worst season, by far, and it lasted for much longer than it needed to. And what did the extra time do to it? Nothing but give me and I'm sure many others a gigantic headache. It was easily the worst season in Pokemon. And if you don't like Contests, you're ignoring half of what makes Pokemon interesting to watch in the first place, for reasons of bravado or ignorance or whatever your deluded reasons are. They at least give someone other than Ash the spotlight for a second.

Yeah, Johto sucked. Sorry. It's true. :|

You are a stupid loser and you can't make your opinions out of facts since your ****** opinions are not facts at all,Johto series and the Johto team was ten times better then the Hoenn and Sinnoh series and the loser Sinnoh team which were over taken by that damn Infernape.

The Kanto team never ever overshadowed Johto at all or even the Johto Team. Your point sucks **** and don't make any sense what so ever.

A pokemon don't need to evolve to be capable in battles since this is retarded non sense of your's,Bayleef ,Cyndaquil ,Totodile, Noctowl,Phanpy and Heracross were all well train and handled in the Johto, one pokemon evolving in Johto was perfectly well handled since the writers plan it that way,this isn't the games were a pokemon needs to evolve to be strong and in the anime a pokemon prove to its self that it can battle with out having to evolve,your points sucks and Heracross never had a promblem with a Kanto pokemon on the team and the writers plan ffor Heracross to be at Oak's lab,you are very dumb.

Johto plots were advance well done,Misty was well handled and she had tons of battles and screen time,Brock had a whole lot of good pokemon on his team so he didn't need to be redeem at all,Team Rocket sub plot was well done in this region and this region was the last time we would see the good old classic Team Rocket in stead of the bland boring Team Rocket in the Hoenn series.

Johto fillers were the best of this series with most of them being good classics,Sinnoh didn't fix anything right at all since Sinnoh was the worst series ever and Paul was a very uninteresting character rival with no good conflict unlike Ash and Gary had in the golden years of Kanto and Johto. Ash had a good rival in Johto and that was Gary,you fail again idiot.

Johto was a very good series with good well handled pokemon,great charcters like Misty ,Brock and Gary,this was the best season of pokemon and the reason Johto lasted longer is because they plan it that way and this series is was makes pokemon a true interesting series not those stupid contest crap which made pokemon decline big time during the AG and DP sagas era.

It is true that Johto was one of the true last great seasons of pokemon,a very memorable series that will always be in out hearts during, the last golden years of pokemon. A whole lot of people love this series and it will always been remember for being a true pokemon classic.

Weedle_mchairbug.Your opinions are not facts and they suck like you,Johto had enough of pokemon battles and the newer seasons of pokemon like Hoenn and Sinnoh suck real bad and these two series were terrible, a lot of people loved Johto fillers but they hated the Pokemon contest crap which didn't improve the anime at all,this is why contest are gone after Sinnoh ended they were not like by a whole lot of people,the anime imporve without those stupid contest crap that we got bored of during the Hoenn and Sinnoh sagas.

The Kanto and Johto sagas had a ver higher ratings then the DP series did and the Sinnoh series had the lowest ratings in the entire pokemon anime making it and the AG series one of the worst series to ever be made part of pokemon anime series.

A whole lot of people hated the DP series due to whole crappy it really was and the pokemon were poorly done for the Sinnoh series and the plots were terrible awful unthinkable and forgotten,this was the worst era of pokemon and this series will be the most hated out of them all.

 

[Kirbychu]

Tough, you need to learn about this little thing called respect. Watch this video, it should help.



Why do you feel a need to insult people just for having a different opinion than you? It's an incredibly immature display. No, everyone who thinks Johto was a bad series is not a "stupid loser" just because they dislike what you like. I'm closing this to prevent a future flamewar. You bumped this thread anyways.

Closed