What kind of Ash do you want?

weedle_mchairybug · Sep 3, 2014

OminousFlare said:
Still doesn't bring Pokemon to Dragon Balls' level of alpha male shounen. More than half of the Pokemon anime franchise is filled with idealistic values, including the value of losing at the leagues. The leagues aren't Super Seiyan's level of pumping adrenaline; they are marketed to be educational at best. Otherwise, you'd have planet-destroyers like Arceus wiping out the planet every fifth episode.

The leagues ARE about Ash trying to fight his way to the top (and BTW, since Super Saiyans aren't even in the original Dragon Ball, I'm talking strictly about the original Dragon Ball series, not Dragon Ball Z, which didn't even have a tournament until, what, the Cell Games saga?), that's good enough for it being shonen (especially early Dragon Ball-style shonen, which didn't even feature planet-destroyer characters. Heck, that didn't even occur until Dragon Ball Z.). He did deal with World conquering villains, but with the tournaments, he definitely had to make sure to get to the top, increasing each time in rank until by the Piccolo Jr. Saga, he managed to actually win a tournament. And when your goal is to become the best, which naturally implies progression, especially increasing in rank, yes, you do have to if not win the leagues, at the very least actually increase in rank to show you actually learned something.

Or maybe they thought that since the protagonist sells in the previous seasons, they might as well use him again in the new season. A poor marketing choice by your logic, sure, but still, it makes sense.

By your logic, they would have followed PokeSpecial's route, heck, even the games route of replacing the protagonist since those proved to be selling points in the previous chapters/games.

So one kid is smart enough not to follow the sheep. Big deal. We are talking about an entire demographic here, thank you.

Actually, there are stories about how there were plenty of other kids of the age range who felt Misty was better. Oh, and that kid I mentioned? He went over to the Elementary School right next to our high school. I don't know whether he was successful, but I do know he was extremely confident that several of the kids there would have supported Misty, and its unlikely that confidence was unfounded.

OminousFlare · Sep 3, 2014

weedle_mchairybug said:
The leagues ARE about Ash trying to fight his way to the top (and BTW, since Super Saiyans aren't even in the original Dragon Ball, I'm talking strictly about the original Dragon Ball series, not Dragon Ball Z, which didn't even have a tournament until, what, the Cell Games saga?), that's good enough for it being shonen (especially early Dragon Ball-style shonen, which didn't even feature planet-destroyer characters. Heck, that didn't even occur until Dragon Ball Z.). He did deal with World conquering villains, but with the tournaments, he definitely had to make sure to get to the top, increasing each time in rank until by the Piccolo Jr. Saga, he managed to actually win a tournament. And when your goal is to become the best, which naturally implies progression, especially increasing in rank, yes, you do have to if not win the leagues, at the very least actually increase in rank to show you actually learned something.

That's clearly unfair. By not taking Dragon Ball Z into consideration, you are merely comparing one season of the show to Pokemon's six seasons, which is completely idiotic. Progression throughout multiple seasons clearly didn't work well for Dragon Balls either.

weedle_mchairybug said:
By your logic, they would have followed PokeSpecial's route, heck, even the games route of replacing the protagonist since those proved to be selling points in the previous chapters/games.

No, by my logic, they would have failed hard, which they did with B/W's release. Why would they replace Satoshi if he's doing well? That never happens in most anime anyway. And yes, we're talking about the anime here, not the games or the manga. There are many cases where the protagonist was never replaced in long-running anime, such as One Piece and Naruto. The creators were clearly trying to go that route with Satoshi.

weedle_mchairybug said:
Actually, there are stories about how there were plenty of other kids of the age range who felt Misty was better. Oh, and that kid I mentioned? He went over to the Elementary School right next to our high school. I don't know whether he was successful, but I do know he was extremely confident that several of the kids there would have supported Misty, and its unlikely that confidence was unfounded.

Still sounds like an insignificant number of kids grasping at straws. But hey, many people want Transformers movies to have a good story too so, you're not alone.

weedle_mchairybug · Sep 3, 2014

OminousFlare said:
That's clearly unfair. By not taking Dragon Ball Z into consideration, you are merely comparing one season of the show to Pokemon's six seasons, which is completely idiotic. Progression throughout multiple seasons clearly didn't work well for Dragon Balls either.

I'm relegating to Dragon Ball because you implied it had to be something like planet destroying aspects and super saiyans to qualify, which Dragon Ball wasn't (and BTW, Dragon Ball had different seasons: The Pilaf Saga, World Tournament Saga, Red Ribbon Army Saga, King Piccolo Saga, and Piccolo Jr. Saga are all seasons in Dragon Ball, yes, even in Japan. Dragon Ball Z was an entirely new series, not merely a new season).

No, by my logic, they would have failed hard, which they did with B/W's release. Why would they replace Satoshi if he's doing well? That never happens in most anime anyway. And yes, we're talking about the anime here, not the games or the manga. There are many cases where the protagonist was never replaced in long-running anime, such as One Piece and Naruto. The creators were clearly trying to go that route with Satoshi.

For the record, Yu-Gi-Oh and, heck, even Digimon, Pokémon's rival franchise, has replaced its entire main cast. Digimon in particular is still doing fairly well despite that, and if DBZ Fan is correct, it's even going to have a new show soon.

Still sounds like an insignificant number of kids grasping at straws. But hey, many people want Transformers movies to have a good story too so, you're not alone.

I actually did a petition of 9,000 from my neighborhood, some including kids of Pokémon's age, and even some from the elementary school alluded to there. That's not even getting into at least one online petition that hat 30,000 signatures. That's definitely not "insignificant" at all. And that's not getting into how Misty's the only Pokémon main protagonist to actually be cosplayed frequently at Anime Weekend Atlanta.

OminousFlare · Sep 3, 2014

weedle_mchairybug said:
I'm relegating to Dragon Ball because you implied it had to be something like planet destroying aspects and super saiyans to qualify, which Dragon Ball wasn't (and BTW, Dragon Ball had different seasons: The Pilaf Saga, World Tournament Saga, Red Ribbon Army Saga, King Piccolo Saga, and Piccolo Jr. Saga are all seasons in Dragon Ball, yes, even in Japan. Dragon Ball Z was an entirely new series, not merely a new season).

Yes, Dragon Ball wasn't. End of story. How many years did those so-called seasons (not counting DBZ) take to be released? How many years did Pokemon's seasons take to be released?

weedle_mchairybug said:
For the record, Yu-Gi-Oh and, heck, even Digimon, Pokémon's rival franchise, has replaced its entire main cast. Digimon in particular is still doing fairly well despite that, and if DBZ Fan is correct, it's even going to have a new show soon.

You're joking, right? I'm a huge Digimon fan, and even I could see that Xros Wars was Digimon's Black and White. It was an utter disaster with a poor man's version of the protagonist from the first season... OH, RIGHT. Maybe if they have kept the first season's protagonist! Let's reboot the first season! That's what DBZ Fan's so-called "new show" really is, a reboot of the first season.

weedle_mchairybug said:
I actually did a petition of 9,000 from my neighborhood, some including kids of Pokémon's age, and even some from the elementary school alluded to there. That's not even getting into at least one online petition that hat 30,000 signatures. That's definitely not "insignificant" at all. And that's not getting into how Misty's the only Pokémon main protagonist to actually be cosplayed frequently at Anime Weekend Atlanta.

30,000 out of... what's the population of the world again? Ah right, merely accounting to billions.

weedle_mchairybug · Sep 3, 2014

OminousFlare said:
Yes, Dragon Ball wasn't. End of story. How many years did those so-called seasons (not counting DBZ) take to be released? How many years did Pokemon's seasons take to be released?

Okay, that's about seven years/seasons, maybe eight if we count the Bansho fan saga.

You're joking, right? I'm a huge Digimon fan, and even I could see that Xros Wars was Digimon's Black and White. It was an utter disaster with a poor man's version of the protagonist from the first season... OH, RIGHT. Maybe if they have kept the first season's protagonist! Let's reboot the first season! That's what DBZ Fan's so-called "new show" really is, a reboot of the first season.

We've also got Yu-Gi-Oh, as well as some other Animes that replaced its main characters. Heck, Goku got replaced by the Majin Buu Saga, as well. His name was Goten. I think Gundam also replaced its main characters as well.

30,000 out of... what's the population of the world again? Ah right, merely accounting to billions.

Yeah, and the amount for Brock returning was even less than that, yet guess what, he returned due to demands after Tracey came along. We've also got fan conventions showing Misty frequently in Anime conventions, even in Japan, in fact.

OminousFlare · Sep 3, 2014

weedle_mchairybug said:
Okay, that's about seven years/seasons, maybe eight if we count the Bansho fan saga.

End of debate. I win.

weedle_mchairybug said:
We've also got Yu-Gi-Oh, as well as some other Animes that replaced its main characters. Heck, Goku got replaced by the Majin Buu Saga, as well. His name was Goten. I think Gundam also replaced its main characters as well.

SOME other anime. Some other anime of which their plot-style the Pokemon writers didn't feel like following, in contrast to the far more profitable major anime like Naruto, One Piece, and Detective Conan (I think even Bleach kept its protagonist, IIRC?).

weedle_mchairybug said:
Yeah, and the amount for Brock returning was even less than that, yet guess what, he returned due to demands after Tracey came along.

So why didn't Kasumi return after your so-called 'demands' that outweigh the number of Takeshi-demands? Because of the script. So again, your numbers hardly matter, the script (and to that extent, the profit) does.

weedle_mchairybug said:
We've also got fan conventions showing Misty frequently in Anime conventions, even in Japan, in fact.

So what? Nostalgiaf**s like to cosplay older characters all the time. You're not going to make me take nostalgia seriously, are you?

weedle_mchairybug · Sep 3, 2014

OminousFlare said:
SOME other anime. Some other anime of which their plot-style the Pokemon writers didn't feel like following, in contrast to the far more profitable major anime like Naruto, One Piece, and Detective Conan (I think even Bleach kept its protagonist, IIRC?).

Yeah, and the anime's suffering from it as well. Look at the ratings. Heck, the Ponyta episode, a filler, was the most high rated episode, while the lowest known rated episode was the Pike Queen Lucy episode.

So why didn't Kasumi return after your so-called 'demands' that outweigh the number of Takeshi-demands? Because of the script. So again, your numbers hardly matter, the script (and to that extent, the profit) does.

That's frankly because the writers became cynical and figured they'd ignore the audience (an action that, again as noted above, is actually driving away even its intended demographic). Eisner felt doing cheapquels of Disney films was a good idea. Look what happened: He got fired largely because of mismanagement the company suffered from his reign, and Disney still isn't much better off with Iger in charge. While the movies themselves are doing well, Disney Channel and some of its Disney owned channels aren't doing so hot, and Gay Days at Walt Disney World actually is drawing in far less people than years before largely because parents are wising up. And just so you're aware, Takeshi Shudo and Mayumi Iizuka fully acknowledged that removing Misty, heck, ignoring her was a total mistake. In fact, the ratings went up when Misty actually returned very briefly, so they should have used their heads and actually brought her back in for the main cast.

And again, the script for Last Action Hero also resulted in the movie bombing, and that's exactly what's happening with recent Pokémon seasons, especially BW. Heck, the most recent movie did poorly at the box office.

So what? Nostalgiaf**s like to cosplay older characters all the time. You're not going to make me take nostalgia seriously, are you?

I don't have nostalgia. I remember everything with very good clarity. Nostalgia implies basically losing your mind and corroded memories, stuff that I have yet to encounter. And I don't cosplay, anyways. And yes, there are a lot more Misty fans out there, and if we recruit them all together and do a global boycott, we will pressure them enough to force them to bring her back.

OminousFlare · Sep 3, 2014

weedle_mchairybug said:
Yeah, and the anime's suffering from it as well. Look at the ratings. Heck, the Ponyta episode, a filler, was the most high rated episode, while the lowest known rated episode was the Pike Queen Lucy episode.

That's frankly because the writers became cynical and figured they'd ignore the audience (an action that, again as noted above, is actually driving away even its intended demographic). Eisner felt doing cheapquels of Disney films was a good idea. Look what happened: He got fired largely because of mismanagement the company suffered from his reign, and Disney still isn't much better off with Iger in charge. While the movies themselves are doing well, Disney Channel and some of its Disney owned channels aren't doing so hot, and Gay Days at Walt Disney World actually is drawing in far less people than years before largely because parents are wising up. And just so you're aware, Takeshi Shudo and Mayumi Iizuka fully acknowledged that removing Misty, heck, ignoring her was a total mistake. In fact, the ratings went up when Misty actually returned very briefly, so they should have used their heads and actually brought her back in for the main cast.

And again, the script for Last Action Hero also resulted in the movie bombing, and that's exactly what's happening with recent Pokémon seasons, especially BW. Heck, the most recent movie did poorly at the box office.

I don't have nostalgia. I remember everything with very good clarity. Nostalgia implies basically losing your mind and corroded memories, stuff that I have yet to encounter. And I don't cosplay, anyways. And yes, there are a lot more Misty fans out there, and if we recruit them all together and do a global boycott, we will pressure them enough to force them to bring her back.

tl;dr: "I'm a Misty Fanboy that's butthurt about it."

Time to move on, kid.

weedle_mchairybug · Sep 4, 2014

OminousFlare said:
tl;dr: "I'm a Misty Fanboy that's butthurt about it."

Time to move on, kid.

First of all, I didn't even care initially if Misty got replaced, and I learned she had been replaced when Disney Adventures made that clear, this was way back when AG was actually starting BTW. I also figured she was going on her own journey as I stopped watching at Johto at the time (not because of the content of the episodes, but because of that stupid Socka Party thing and similar stupid events drove me away from Kids WB. That and a growing fear that I'll be ostracized for effectively watching a baby show). Heck, I didn't even mind May initially, seeing no quarrel with her. It wasn't until May 2006, about three years after AG started, that, while I was at the hospital, I actually saw May for what she actually was when I saw, or rather, heard her basically whining like a poodle, just like the Fiorello Fangirls, the characters from Love Hina, and all of that, just like a Hina, in other words. THAT'S when I became certain she had to be stopped and when I learned about how Misty ended up removed, the poorly-written reason she was removed, and how Brock got exempt, that got me even more determined. I wanted Misty back, in other words, because I wanted to destroy the Hina stereotypes, any and all negative stereotypes on women, improve women's lot in life. Misty never fit that stereotype at all, Princess vs. Princess made that clear (my mom even pointed that out when I asked, and she's not even a fan of the series, never mind Misty).

Oh, and BTW, I had no problem with women becoming mothers even back then (she already showed hints about having a motherly nature when trying to tend to Pikachu in the first episode of the entire Anime franchise. All Togepi did was expand it, and even with Togepi she did still do a lot of stuff. I'd know because I sat through Johto just to analyze things.). After all, women have reproductive organs for a reason, and being a mother doesn't take away from someone's strength. And I definitely would not consider abortion a women's strength at all.

OminousFlare · Sep 4, 2014

weedle_mchairybug said:
First of all, I didn't even care initially if Misty got replaced, and I learned she had been replaced when Disney Adventures made that clear, this was way back when AG was actually starting BTW. I also figured she was going on her own journey as I stopped watching at Johto at the time (not because of the content of the episodes, but because of that stupid Socka Party thing and similar stupid events drove me away from Kids WB. That and a growing fear that I'll be ostracized for effectively watching a baby show). Heck, I didn't even mind May initially, seeing no quarrel with her. It wasn't until May 2006, about three years after AG started, that, while I was at the hospital, I actually saw May for what she actually was when I saw, or rather, heard her basically whining like a poodle, just like the Fiorello Fangirls, the characters from Love Hina, and all of that, just like a Hina, in other words. THAT'S when I became certain she had to be stopped and when I learned about how Misty ended up removed, the poorly-written reason she was removed, and how Brock got exempt, that got me even more determined. I wanted Misty back, in other words, because I wanted to destroy the Hina stereotypes, any and all negative stereotypes on women, improve women's lot in life. Misty never fit that stereotype at all, Princess vs. Princess made that clear (my mom even pointed that out when I asked, and she's not even a fan of the series, never mind Misty).

Oh, and BTW, I had no problem with women becoming mothers even back then (she already showed hints about having a motherly nature when trying to tend to Pikachu in the first episode of the entire Anime franchise. All Togepi did was expand it, and even with Togepi she did still do a lot of stuff. I'd know because I sat through Johto just to analyze things.). After all, women have reproductive organs for a reason, and being a mother doesn't take away from someone's strength. And I definitely would not consider abortion a women's strength at all.

We're done. You're basically repeating what you said in the other thread. Also, crying =/= whining. Learn the difference.

Also, mothers are boring. You're taking it too seriously when you start to compare anime characters to real women. Haruka and Hikari are entertaining. Period.

Wobbu · Sep 4, 2014

Yes, you are both done. Please keep the discussion relevant to your ideal version of Ash rather than arguing about the anime in general.

JulietteHoennPrincess · Sep 6, 2014

kogaaprentice32 said:
Umm one that retains his experience from season to season.

BW was the only time he did not. AG he did,DP he did and XY he did.

weedle_mchairybug · Sep 6, 2014

JulietteHoennPrincess said:
BW was the only time he did not. AG he did,DP he did and XY he did.

Well, AG is debatable, considering that he didn't actually advance in rank (he still got the same rank he did in Johto), but I agree with you regarding DP, not to mention the disaster that was BW. Ash may have lost to Paul in DP regarding Elekid, but at least Paul was experienced and his Elekid may have at least one region's worth of experience, not to mention used Pikachu's Volt Tackle against him. How Ash lost to Trip just has no excuse whatsoever, especially when the latter was literally just out of the door to his first year as a trainer when he fought.

JulietteHoennPrincess · Sep 6, 2014

weedle_mchairybug said:
Well, AG is debatable, considering that he didn't actually advance in rank (he still got the same rank he did in Johto), but I agree with you regarding DP, not to mention the disaster that was BW. Ash may have lost to Paul in DP regarding Elekid, but at least Paul was experienced and his Elekid may have at least one region's worth of experience, not to mention used Pikachu's Volt Tackle against him. How Ash lost to Trip just has no excuse whatsoever, especially when the latter was literally just out of the door to his first year as a trainer when he fought.

I still think BW wanted to be a reboot but not be an official one and that alone made it one huge mess. If BW was a "Direct" follow up to DP in terms of writing it may not be hated so much. BW Ash felt so out of place after AG and DP that it felt like a reboot even if it was not really one. But than when Dawn came back she used his counter shield which made me wonder why
Ash was even regressed if they brought that back. IDK Unova was very confusing for me

weedle_mchairybug · Sep 6, 2014

JulietteHoennPrincess said:
I still think BW wanted to be a reboot but not be an official one and that alone made it one huge mess. If BW was a "Direct" follow up to DP in terms of writing it may not be hated so much. BW Ash felt so out of place after AG and DP that it felt like a reboot even if it was not really one. But than when Dawn came back she used his counter shield which made me wonder why
Ash was even regressed if they brought that back. IDK Unova was very confusing for me

Makes me wish they actually went through with actually making DP a grand finale rather than wasting time on fillers and then running out of time thanks to BW's impending release, especially considering there were a lot of hints that DP was initially supposed to actually be Ash's grand finale. I maintain their inclusion of Ash in BW was last minute because they wasted time on fillers and wanted to meet Gen 5's release date on time (we didn't even get any hints that the anime would even cover a new generation until the Zoaroak movie, the final movie of DP, and there was a lot of heavy foreshadowing that Ash would actually win the league as well. I don't think we even got any information that Ash was even going to be in BW until way late into the Sinnoh League. We got hints as early as Movie 4 that there would be an Advanced Generation, and in AG, we got hints that there was going to be a Diamond and Pearl starting with Movie 7, three movies before DP.).

And to be honest, outside of the whole pattern of bringing over the former female for a brief interaction with the current cast, I'm not sure why Dawn even NEEDED to be in Best Wishes. There weren't any Pokémon Contests in Unova, certainly not any trans-regional contests, nor was she trying to avoid something she didn't like. Even May at least had a trans-regional ribbon to be aiming for. I mean, honestly, Ash doesn't interrupt his journey mid-region to visit friends, so why should Dawn?

AFeralFurry · Sep 6, 2014

I'd honestly like Ash to be more like his counterpart, Red. Pokemon Origins proved that you can have an inexperienced, but still awesome Red. There's really no reason for Ash not to grow up at least a little.

JulietteHoennPrincess · Sep 6, 2014

AFeralFurry said:
I'd honestly like Ash to be more like his counterpart, Red. Pokemon Origins proved that you can have an inexperienced, but still awesome Red. There's really no reason for Ash not to grow up at least a little.

Red just spammed his Charzard and pretty much failed with training his other Pokemon. At least Ash focuses on training hall of his team.

AFeralFurry · Sep 6, 2014

JulietteHoennPrincess said:
Red just spammed his Charzard and pretty much failed with training his other Pokemon. At least Ash focuses on training hall of his team.

I suppose that's true, for when he was onscreen. However, he clearly spent a lot of time training his other Pokemon, as we can see during the champion battle where Charizard goes last, right after we saw his other team members.

I do admit Origins Red's win against the champion was silly, though.

And, while Ash does train his whole team, he makes the critical mistake of never using them when he travels between regions, therefore ensuring he's quite weak when Pikachu won't cut it.

Regardless, though, it's just an opinion. Ash isn't a horrible trainer by any means, but I know he can get better. I guess I want him less childish, more serious? *Shrug*

JulietteHoennPrincess · Sep 6, 2014

AFeralFurry said:
I suppose that's true, for when he was onscreen. However, he clearly spent a lot of time training his other Pokemon, as we can see during the champion battle where Charizard goes last, right after we saw his other team members.

I do admit Origins Red's win against the champion was silly, though.

And, while Ash does train his whole team, he makes the critical mistake of never using them when he travels between regions, therefore ensuring he's quite weak when Pikachu won't cut it.

Regardless, though, it's just an opinion. Ash isn't a horrible trainer by any means, but I know he can get better. I guess I want him less childish, more serious? *Shrug*

The difference here is Ash is representing the player so him using his own past Pokemon in a region would be weird. While for Red we saw him in only 4 eps and one region. Kinda hard to compare the two tbh when one is a mini series so a lot was done off screen and they could make him seem op since he would never be shown again. that is what I mean with hard to compare the two. Luckily with Alan in that Mega evo they showed him as a skilled trainer already in the same verse of Ash so even when the Mega Evo special series is done Alan himself can still appear in the main anime. Which really I hope they make it so they both cross path. (That would explain why Team Flare has not been shown in the Ash episodes.)

As for him being serious idk I see Ash as like Goku and Luffy who are serious if friends are in danger but goofy most of the time. I guess Naruto is a lot more serious more but the tone of Shippuden to me at least seems more emotional than DBZ or OP.

Sorry if I came off rude I just see people hating on Ash and finding Red amazing. Plus this really bias Red vs Ash pics on Tumblr I feel if someone likes Red they automatically hate Ash.

AFeralFurry · Sep 6, 2014

JulietteHoennPrincess said:
The difference here is Ash is representing the player so him using his own past Pokemon in a region would be weird. While for Red we saw him in only 4 eps and one region. Kinda hard to compare the two tbh when one is a mini series so a lot was done off screen and they could make him seem op since he would never be shown again. that is what I mean with hard to compare the two. Luckily with Alan in that Mega evo they showed him as a skilled trainer already in the same verse of Ash so even when the Mega Evo special series is done Alan himself can still appear in the main anime. Which really I hope they make it so they both cross path. (That would explain why Team Flare has not been shown in the Ash episodes.)

As for him being serious idk I see Ash as like Goku and Luffy who are serious if friends are in danger but goofy most of the time. I guess Naruto is a lot more serious more but the tone of Shippuden to me at least seems more emotional than DBZ or OP.

Sorry if I came off rude I just see people hating on Ash and finding Red amazing. Plus this really bias Red vs Ash pics on Tumblr I feel if someone likes Red they automatically hate Ash.

Nah, I don't hate Ash. I actually feel sorry for the guy since he always lose the tournaments.

The BW one especially was bad, losing a 6 on 5 battle.

I just want him to improve, maybe win, y'know? If he represents us, it's kinda sad he always loses. He should at least win one time.

I do admit, though, I'm not fond of Ash's "use Pikachu until I can't" strategy, but that's neither here nor there.

What kind of Ash do you want?

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