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Is it Racism if there is no malicious intent?

Adrasteia

Adrasteia

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Hello.
I'd like to ask you a question I'm sure a few people have discussed of at least thought about. Is a sentence that comes across and racist, sexist or any other kind of -ist really wrong or deserving of punishment if the person saying it has no malicious intent or is just a little ignorant.

My Great Uncle (the brother of my Grandfather) is the sweetest man you will ever meet (awful jokes aside) he can talk to anyone and have fun doing it, but sometime in his ignorance he will say something stupid. We were at an Indian restaurant and my uncle said 'Oh, you people like cricket.' Though while not a derogatory statement it is generalising a culture by stereo typing them. I can personally guarantee that he had no malicious intent nor did he mean it in a derogatory way. He's just a little ignorant and the server laughed with him so there was no insult taken.
Now my question. Do you believe in a situation like this you should just let it go as ignorance of a man in his early 60's, should you point it out as not being an okey thing to say or should someone have made a complaint? I'd love to hear your opinions :)
 
maccrash

maccrash

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it's still racist, of course -- fundamentally, deep-rooted racism is still racism. that being said, some degree of leeway should probably be granted considering the dude grew up when it was considered okay & he shouldn't Necessarily be expected to change with the times, considering his age & all. that doesn't make it any more okay, but it's just the fact of the matter.

so, basically, it's still not okay to say, but it's kind of understandable as to why someone like him would say something like that, if that makes sense.
 
Adrasteia

Adrasteia

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maccrash said:
it's still racist, of course -- fundamentally, deep-rooted racism is still racism. that being said, some degree of leeway should probably be granted considering the dude grew up when it was considered okay & he shouldn't Necessarily be expected to change with the times, considering his age & all. that doesn't make it any more okay, but it's just the fact of the matter.

so, basically, it's still not okay to say, but it's kind of understandable as to why someone like him would say something like that, if that makes sense.
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Perfect sense, it may be partialy the time of his upbringing that lead to his ignorance on the matter but he feels no animosity towards anyone different from himself so it's still a little different
 
Bay

Bay

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This one I have mixed feelings about. On the one hand, I had instances where some people said a stereotype in front of me, like the one time a friend of mine mentioned stuff like Cambodians running all the donut shops. I didn't say anything as I knew he didn't mean any ill intent and I do know Cambodian family members that work in donut shops, but I probably should had warn him that some folks will not be cool with that. Oddly enough, a few weeks ago while in an Asian supermarket I overheard a discussion between one Chinese person and a Cambodian and they said the same thing.

Whether a racist or any other -ism comment deserves punishment I think depends on the situation. The "cricket" situation above in the first post while I would personally warn them to be careful what they say next time I think it's not such a huge deal for a compliant. If there's a situation where there is ill intent in someone's words, like say someone saying to another person they should go back to their country, that warrants a much bigger discussion I think.
 
Sydian

Sydian

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When I was three, I told a black lady she reminded me of chocolate cake. That's what three year olds like so I'm sure I really meant for that to be a compliment, but I was told I couldn't say things like that because it would hurt someone's feelings, so I got the picture after that. So in these cases of someone saying something ignorant like that without really meaning for it to sound mean, I think they should still be told, "hey, that's not okay" and I think it's a bit less excusable with age honestly. Like yeah, I would expect that from someone around 60+, but surely with that age in mind, they are capable of learning better than that. And even if they aren't and are unwilling to change their comments, then after they've been told "whoa that's wrong," it can't be excused as ignorance anymore.

I don't think I made a lick of sense. 8)
 
Nakuzami

Nakuzami

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well

is it racism? in such situations, not really. at least in the sense that it doesn't necessarily make the speaker racist. it can still be a racist remark though, regardless of intent.

I say some racist remarks all the time, honestly. In jest, sure, but I still realize that they're racist remarks. I'm not racist, though.

That goes for most things of the like, as well, such as sexism and other stereotypical remarks. Have I made sexist remarks before? Towards both genders. Have I made remarks on gay stereotypes before? Yep, and I'm still hella gay. Have I made remarks regarding American stupidity? Every day, but I'm still, for better or worse, American, lol.

For a more extreme example, when I was five, I once called a black friend of mine (well he was a hell of a lot older than me but idk my friend group had a five, seven, and teenage-somethin' year olds in it lol) a ******, after hearing the word from someone else. I literally had no idea what the word was or what it meant. Was it a racist word? Of fucking course. Was I a racist five year old? No. I haven't used the term in such a manner since, lol.

So, in response to the main questions, are these remarks still wrong? Yes. Are they deserving of punishment? Not really, so long as there was no malicious intent behind it. Should people be scolded or reminded not to make such remarks? If someone's offended by it, go right ahead. Are they racist? Remarks can be inherently racist, definitely, but that doesn't mean the person uttering the remarks is necessarily a racist.
 

Psychic

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To answer the thread title, yes. People often don't intend to be malicious, or don't even realize that what they're saying might be considered racist, but that doesn't mean it can't hurt others, or still contribute to racism. Racism is very deeply ingrained in our cultures in ways we often don't even realize. It's important to be aware of that and ask ourselves why we think these things, and seek to change how we view the world.

The question in the OP is very different, though. It's always tricky to decide whether or not to call out racism, and it definitely depends on the situation, the person, and your relationship to them. I really don't like to wave away racism/sexism/homophobia/etc just because someone grew up with those views, and people's views can definitely change for the better with time and understanding. That said, I still have to pick my battles whenever my grandmother says something ignorant, because I know that challenging her views doesn't usually go well! There are definitely ways to point out racism with people who don't recognize their racism, so here's some advice I've found online:

Also of note:
  • Just because the server at the restaurant laughed, doesn't mean the remark was acceptable, nor does it absolve your uncle. The server may have just been acting polite, or maybe the server didn't mind, but other people did.
  • Making a racist joke is still racist and gross, even if you don't think you're racist, or are "doing it ironically." It's childish, and just because the person you're talking to may be okay with it, your words can still hurt other people, or may encourage actual racists to think their views are acceptable.

~Psychic
 
gimmepie

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I personally think that racism is all about intent. Whilst remarks like your grandfathers are not necessarily okay, if he himself does not discriminate against people of that culture he isn't racism towards them.

Similar thing goes for "ironic racism", when you make an ironically racist comment you're more making fun of racist people that the race you mentioned. If this is misconstrued as a malicious remark you should definitely apologise and explain the reasoning behind it and you should be a bit weary about hurting peoples' feelings but making those jokes in no way makes a person a racist either unless they're foolish enough to actually believe what they're saying.
 
OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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Nakuzami said:
well

is it racism? in such situations, not really. at least in the sense that it doesn't necessarily make the speaker racist. it can still be a racist remark though, regardless of intent.

I say some racist remarks all the time, honestly. In jest, sure, but I still realize that they're racist remarks. I'm not racist, though.

That goes for most things of the like, as well, such as sexism and other stereotypical remarks. Have I made sexist remarks before? Towards both genders. Have I made remarks on gay stereotypes before? Yep, and I'm still hella gay. Have I made remarks regarding American stupidity? Every day, but I'm still, for better or worse, American, lol.

For a more extreme example, when I was five, I once called a black friend of mine (well he was a hell of a lot older than me but idk my friend group had a five, seven, and teenage-somethin' year olds in it lol) a jirachi, after hearing the word from someone else. I literally had no idea what the word was or what it meant. Was it a racist word? Of psyducking course. Was I a racist five year old? No. I haven't used the term in such a manner since, lol.

So, in response to the main questions, are these remarks still wrong? Yes. Are they deserving of punishment? Not really, so long as there was no malicious intent behind it. Should people be scolded or reminded not to make such remarks? If someone's offended by it, go right ahead. Are they racist? Remarks can be inherently racist, definitely, but that doesn't mean the person uttering the remarks is necessarily a racist.
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Reading your comment reminded me of a history professor of mine who made jokes about nearly every race, religion, and gender (including his own).
Also, you called your friend a pokémon's name (Jirachi) or is that the censor?


There is history in words (as a history major of color I should know that quite well), but the intent changes over time, people shift the meaning into something else. Take the word Gay for example, it once was used as an insult (heck it still is) but now homosexuals (,especially men) use it proudly (there appears to be N word privileges though).
In my Chicano's studies class I learned that Mexicans were once called Cockroach people (never heard it in my life so it was a bit surprising) but the author of a book we read used it as a symbol of resilience, like the cockroaches we won't be defeated no matter how much we get stomped on. Likewise jokes like can help lighten up the darkness of the word's past and reduce the harshness of the words.
 
Grey Wind

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Yes. I feel like the "it wasn't intentional racism" rhetoric is just a cop out for people who don't want to feel guilty about what they said or did. What you intended didn't really matter; your words were still racist, were still influenced by racism and still contribute to racism.


I agree with what Psychic said about the more specific question in the OP. If someone is genuinely just uneducated/ignorant about what they've said then I don't think an aggressive approach is a good option.
 
Nakuzami

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OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire said:
Also, you called your friend a pokémon's name (Jirachi) or is that the censor?

Take the word Gay for example, it once was used as an insult (heck it still is) but now homosexuals (,especially men) use it proudly (there appears to be N word privileges though).
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Jirachi is a censor lol. I'll give you a hint: starts with an "n"

Also, gay originally meant joyous/happy, then turned into a descriptor for homosexuals (not sure how with that one), but faggot, for example, is a word meaning a bundle of sticks. It became a derogatory remark towards homosexuals because they used to burn them along with witches, but they weren't deemed "important" enough so they'd just be tossed on the burning faggots beneath the pyre. Similarly, fag means cigarette in areas like the UK. There's a case when a word's meaning is also location-based. It's considered derogatory in the USA, but not in many other places.
 
Adrasteia

Adrasteia

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Nakuzami said:
Jirachi is a censor lol. I'll give you a hint: starts with an "n"

Also, gay originally meant joyous/happy, then turned into a descriptor for homosexuals (not sure how with that one), but haggot, for example, is a word meaning a bundle of sticks. It became a derogatory remark towards homosexuals because they used to burn them along with witches, but they weren't deemed "important" enough so they'd just be tossed on the burning haggots beneath the pyre. Similarly, hag means cigarette in areas like the UK. There's a case when a word's meaning is also location-based. It's considered derogatory in the USA, but not in many other places.
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I love seeing how confused Americans get when an English person says 'I'm off to smoke a fag'
 
Universe

Universe

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Racist jokes and terms should only be said by those they are about-- only they have the right to reclaim that same racist joke or term. If you're not the person who would normally be hearing said remark from others, past or present, then you're not allowed to say it or you risk being absolutely racist regardless of the intent.

That's the beginning, middle, and end.
 
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Esper

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Lots of people (probably most people) aren't aware of their prejudices, but that doesn't mean they don't exist and don't affect their actions. I was just hearing on the radio a few days ago about prejudices that doctors have and how some medical schools are having their students take (I'm sorry, I don't remember the term) one of those blind reaction tests to measure your unconscious bias. There was one example of a student whose family was from Iran and she found out that she had a bias against brown and Muslim people, completely to her surprise, but then she thought about it and could see how it was accurate. So in her case she might have done something, perhaps dismissing the concern of a patient, and she would have been completely unaware of the consequences of it.
 
Alexander Nicholi

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Universe said:
Racist jokes and terms should only be said by those they are about-- only they have the right to reclaim that same racist joke or term. If you're not the person who would normally be hearing said remark from others, past or present, then you're not allowed to say it or you risk being absolutely racist regardless of the intent.

That's the beginning, middle, and end.
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So positive racism is okay, right? If I'm white I can joke about the KKK... but wait, so can black people! That's illogical.

Racism is fucking racism, and there isn't some loophole if you match your socks. Lol
 
Universe

Universe

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Nick said:
So positive racism is okay, right? If I'm white I can joke about the KKK... but wait, so can black people! That's illogical.

Racism is fucking racism, and there isn't some loophole if you match your socks. Lol
Click to expand...

Had someone reread my post to make sure I made sense. I really don't know what else to say to this.
 
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Livewire

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The fact that it's unintentional/unforced is what actually makes it racist, lmao. Ingrained, learned behaviors that you don't necessarily think about before saying is basically racism in a nutshell, really.
 
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gimmepie

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Stormbringer said:
The fact that it it's unintentional/unforced is what actually makes it racist, lmao. Ingrained, learned behaviors that you don't necessarily think about before saying is basically racism in a nutshell, really.
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Perhaps but people should still remember that irony is a thing. If I make a joke about Asians being bad drivers, white people being racist or black people liking chicken, I'm more likely to be taking a shot at the people who believe things like that than perpetuating the stereotype.

We as a society shouldn't condone or encourage racism, but we also need to chill out a little bit and not scream discrimination every time someone makes a bad joke.
 
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