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The PCNation

Somewhere_

i don't know where
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  • That depends on the definition; as there are a few regarding this, some being rituals and others definitions in the rule of law.. If I'm going by the Christian rite, it is with a man and a women. However, for all tense and purposes, it would be in our best interests to go by the legal definition while creating our country. This way, we can insure that everyone is equal.

    Exactly, but the Christian rite should remain the Christian rite. If Christians only want to marry between a man and a women, they shouldn't be forced to marry couples other than only a man and a woman. However, a judge should have to marry anyone because the government should not exclude any groups and allow everyone to be equal.
     

    Nah

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    I feel that we're starting to stray a bit too far from the purpose of the thread/event here. What we're trying to decide right now is what basic form of government and economy we want PCNation to have. Not to preach our personal beliefs about government or argue about the definition of marriage or if Soviet Russia's communist economy worked and whatever else it is y'all are talking about......I'm starting to have a hard time following the conversation really.

    We need to nail the basics down before we get into the specifics.
     

    Thepowaofhax

    Spectre
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    I do believe a Democratic Republic will most likely be the best governmental system, and given our resources, we could exploit ores such as coal. Capitalism seems like a good economical system due to that.
     
    5,983
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  • Why not have ores under public ownership? Ores come from the ground, and the ground belongs to the state. Besides, I don't think it's prudent to distribute the profits from those resources to whoever gets their first when the profits can be distributed to all of society.
     

    Thepowaofhax

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    Why not have ores under public ownership? Ores come from the ground, and the ground belongs to the state. Besides, I don't think it's prudent to distribute the profits from those resources to whoever gets their first when the profits can be distributed to all of society.

    The economy would be a lot better under a regulated capitalism than communism; as true communism can never work as it requires:

    A). Humanity to get away from it's delusional greed and other inherently self-centered parts of our nature. Thus, it is against human nature and would either require complete authoritarian rule, of which, is against Marxist ideals and would still lead to an upper-class.
    B). A society full of makers in an economic system that creates takers. Why get a job when I can let those idiots pay for my money with redistribution?
    C). Forced instillation of Communism into the youth by indoctrination and assimilation, of which assimilation cannot work without consequence. Indoctrination can deal with point A, but it will never be true Communism because it would require authoritarian rule, of which is again, against a the stateless and classless society Communism wants.

    While yes, the wealth does go to who gets to the resources first, they will need people to dig it out of the ground and they will do it for money. Seeing as mining is a dangerous job, I can see the miners getting a hefty pay. However, Democratic Socialism could work if you were hinting to Socialism, but if our society becomes that of mainly takers, we could see a fall in stability. I could see your point if you want Democratic Socialism, however.
     
    Last edited:
    25,539
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  • The economy would be a lot better under a regulated capitalism than communism; as true communism can never work as it requires:

    A). Humanity to get away from it's delusional greed and other inherently self-centered parts of our nature. Thus, it is against human nature and would either require complete authoritarian rule, of which, is against Marxist ideals and would still lead to an upper-class.
    B). A society full of makers in an economic system that creates takers. Why get a job when I can let those idiots pay for my money with redistribution?
    C). Forced instillation of Communism into the youth by indoctrination and assimilation, of which assimilation cannot work without consequence. Indoctrination can deal with point A, but it will never be true Communism because it would require authoritarian rule, of which is again, against a the stateless and classless society Communism wants.

    While yes, the wealth does go to who gets to the resources first, they will need people to dig it out of the ground and they will do it for money. Seeing as mining is a dangerous job, I can see the miners getting a hefty pay. However, Democratic Socialism could work if you were hinting to Socialism, but if our society becomes that of mainly takers, we could see a fall in stability. I could see your point if you want Democratic Socialism, however.

    You're confusing communism and socialism. Communism isn't a good idea because all the resources belong to the government which gives the government too many chances to be greedy and take more for themselves. In socialism resources are owned by everyone more or less, the government just regulates things.

    As for worrying about those who won't work, it seems simple enough to me; if you don't work you don't get any access to resources.
     

    Thepowaofhax

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    You're confusing communism and socialism. Communism isn't a good idea because all the resources belong to the government which gives the government too many chances to be greedy and take more for themselves. In socialism resources are owned by everyone more or less, the government just regulates things.

    As for worrying about those who won't work, it seems simple enough to me; if you don't work you don't get any access to resources.

    If you want to be technical, in true communism (which is a stateless government), and not Lenninism or Stalinism, the ownership is prescribed to the community. The state or government cannot own the resources for the mere reason that true communism aims for a stateless, money-less and classless society.

    And if we go by "no work, no resources, etc", I could be for that. I'd still much prefer regulated capitalism, however.
     

    Somewhere_

    i don't know where
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  • You're confusing communism and socialism. Communism isn't a good idea because all the resources belong to the government which gives the government too many chances to be greedy and take more for themselves. In socialism resources are owned by everyone more or less, the government just regulates things.

    As for worrying about those who won't work, it seems simple enough to me; if you don't work you don't get any access to resources.

    Socialism is theft. There is no reason why my money should be going to other people involuntarily. For example, government run welfare is bad. It is theft, not sharing.

    Go to #2 under Contents:
    https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Costs_of_the_welfare_state

    US Gov Failure:
    http://www.cato.org/research/welfare

    Government spending on welfare:
    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/welfare_spending

    Rate of people on welfare:
    http://dailysignal.com/2011/10/31/welfare-dependence-keeps-growing/
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/08/08/this-chart-showing-welfare-dependency-will-ruin-your-day/
     
    25,539
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  • Socialism is theft. There is no reason why my money should be going to other people involuntarily. For example, government run welfare is crap. Churches and charities do a better job

    Go to #2 under Contents:
    https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Costs_of_the_welfare_state

    US Gov Failure:
    http://www.cato.org/research/welfare

    Government spending on welfare:
    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/welfare_spending

    Rate of people on welfare:
    http://dailysignal.com/2011/10/31/welfare-dependence-keeps-growing/
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/08/08/this-chart-showing-welfare-dependency-will-ruin-your-day/

    Socialism would solve a lot of the worlds problems. A better distribution of resources would counteract things like famine/poverty and reduce discrimination due class division. Besides you miss the point, it's not like your hard-earned money gets spent on other people. Everyone who contributes to the system shares resources, including money, as a collective.

    What you're displaying isn't logic, it's greed. Admittedly though, greed is the route of capitalism these days.
     

    Somewhere_

    i don't know where
    4,494
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  • Socialism would solve a lot of the worlds problems. A better distribution of resources would counteract things like famine/poverty and reduce discrimination due class division. Besides you miss the point, it's not like your hard-earned money gets spent on other people. Everyone who contributes to the system shares resources, including money, as a collective.

    What you're displaying isn't logic, it's greed. Admittedly though, greed is the route of capitalism these days.

    I just displayed how welfare, which is part of socialism makes poverty worse! And wanted free stuff is greed. Not wanting your money stolen by the government is not greed. So if I rob your house, and you try to stop me, you are the greedy one?

    Uhhhhh, I just showed how my money is spent on other people. Its "voluntarily" contributing at gunpoint!
     
    Last edited:

    Blueredemption

    Never stop exploring!
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    Ah! Such intensity, so little progress... It might be a good idea to throw a poll up to find out what the majority wants instead of only the loud minority. I have no problem with the debating, it's fun to read xD I just feel that it will never end.

    Huh, that would mean for a tiny amount of time we would be a direct democracy :D
     
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  • The economy would be a lot better under a regulated capitalism than communism; as true communism can never work as it requires:

    A). Humanity to get away from it's delusional greed and other inherently self-centered parts of our nature. Thus, it is against human nature and would either require complete authoritarian rule, of which, is against Marxist ideals and would still lead to an upper-class.
    B). A society full of makers in an economic system that creates takers. Why get a job when I can let those idiots pay for my money with redistribution?
    C). Forced instillation of Communism into the youth by indoctrination and assimilation, of which assimilation cannot work without consequence. Indoctrination can deal with point A, but it will never be true Communism because it would require authoritarian rule, of which is again, against a the stateless and classless society Communism wants.

    While yes, the wealth does go to who gets to the resources first, they will need people to dig it out of the ground and they will do it for money. Seeing as mining is a dangerous job, I can see the miners getting a hefty pay. However, Democratic Socialism could work if you were hinting to Socialism, but if our society becomes that of mainly takers, we could see a fall in stability. I could see your point if you want Democratic Socialism, however.

    I never said that the system should be communism, I only said that certain natural resources be publicly owned. They're not the same thing.

    What's wrong about having certain natural resources as a state-run industry? Norway does it for their oil, and they can fund a lot of their education as well as other government programs. And besides, if we have a democratic system, then these state-run industries will be under democratic oversight. The business can be audited at any time by a governmental agency, the profits of the business have to be regularly reported for every budget (since the profits help fund the state in a state-run industry), the pay of the workers and managers can be regulated and negotiated by a democratically elected body (and so you avoid excessive executive compensation), and since they're at arm's length from the government, it'll be harder for them to get away with disregarding environmental protection regulations. That sounds like a good system to me.

    And it's not even like there should be no competition in those resource industries at all - far from it. We can allow competition to keep such a large company on its toes. Furthermore, shares of the business can be freely sold as long as the government has the majority stake. These are all measures to allow the natural resources of the land to benefit the public in an efficient way.

    I just displayed how welfare, which is part of socialism makes poverty worse!

    Exactly how do those links display how welfare makes poverty worse? How do you rule out the case that poverty has been steadily becoming more severe in these past decades, and would have been even worse if not for those welfare programs? It's said all too often and I shouldn't be repeating this, but correlation does not equal causation.

    Not wanting your money stolen by the government is not greed. So if I rob your house, and you try to stop me, you are the greedy one?

    You get a lot out of taxation. For one, the government enforces law, security, and contracts. Have fun living in a state where people can rip you off whenever they like, where your liberties are infringed with no authority to petition to, where roads are paved with your own blood and sweat, where unregulated food and drink poisons you and unregulated products hurt you, and so on and so forth. You criticize people who want stuff for free, so I hope you recognize that it would be very difficult to obtain those benefits and others still if the government stopped "stealing" from you.

    Okay just speaking broadly now: I don't know if it's just an American thing, but y'all need to stop getting your bonnets rustled whenever the slightest suggestion of collective ownership or redistribution is mentioned. It's like you're all still in the Cold War with Domino Theory, and instead of fearing the fall of Vietnam to communism you think that one socialist policy is going take us all the way to Stalin mode. We do not have to go Chicken Little at the mere consideration of socialism.

    So let's consider each policy on whether it's beneficial to society or not, instead of just saying "oh it's freedom let's take that, that's always good" or "oh that's socialism we can't have that, that's always bad". If we define policies as good or bad just because of the political label we give them, that's cooking up a recipe for disaster.
     
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  • Right, at some point today I actually will be throwing up a pole to help decide. That will conclude this first part of the event and after we've tallied the votes we'll move on to the constitution.
     

    Sword Master

    You underestimate my power!
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  • I'm in for this. I say that the British way is right as having an unelected House of Lords stops any silly ideas from the government. May be un democratic, but Democracy is flawed.
     

    Nah

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    Okay just speaking broadly now: I don't know if it's just an American thing, but y'all need to stop getting your bonnets rustled whenever the slightest suggestion of collective ownership or redistribution is mentioned. It's like you're all still in the Cold War with Domino Theory, and instead of fearing the fall of Vietnam to communism you think that one socialist policy is going take us all the way to Stalin mode. We do not have to go Chicken Little at the mere consideration of socialism.

    So let's consider each policy on whether it's beneficial to society or not, instead of just saying "oh it's freedom let's take that, that's always good" or "oh that's socialism we can't have that, that's always bad". If we define policies as good or bad just because of the political label we give them, that's cooking up a recipe for disaster.
    It probably is an American thing. When you consider that this country went through the "Red Scare" in the '20s, the McCarthy era, and half the Cold War was about "stopping the spread of communism", not to mention that corporations have some influence in politics here and we have a sub-par education system and a media that I like to think of as trolls half the time, I don't think it's hard to see why many Americans are vehemently opposed to communism or anything remotely similar to it (like socialism).

    I do agree though that it's a little ridiculous that people aren't willing to look at things rationally and make decisions based on the merits of something rather than just on simplistic and biased ideas, but hey that's the US for you. Though I also feel like some of you paint socialism in a slightly more favorable light than you should.

    I'm in for this. I say that the British way is right as having an unelected House of Lords stops any silly ideas from the government. May be un democratic, but Democracy is flawed.
    Could you elaborate on this please? I'm not sure how an unelected house "stops any silly ideas from the government" really.
     

    Somewhere_

    i don't know where
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  • I never said that the system should be communism, I only said that certain natural resources be publicly owned. They're not the same thing.

    What's wrong about having certain natural resources as a state-run industry? Norway does it for their oil, and they can fund a lot of their education as well as other government programs. And besides, if we have a democratic system, then these state-run industries will be under democratic oversight. The business can be audited at any time by a governmental agency, the profits of the business have to be regularly reported for every budget (since the profits help fund the state in a state-run industry), the pay of the workers and managers can be regulated and negotiated by a democratically elected body (and so you avoid excessive executive compensation), and since they're at arm's length from the government, it'll be harder for them to get away with disregarding environmental protection regulations. That sounds like a good system to me.

    And it's not even like there should be no competition in those resource industries at all - far from it. We can allow competition to keep such a large company on its toes. Furthermore, shares of the business can be freely sold as long as the government has the majority stake. These are all measures to allow the natural resources of the land to benefit the public in an efficient way.



    Exactly how do those links display how welfare makes poverty worse? How do you rule out the case that poverty has been steadily becoming more severe in these past decades, and would have been even worse if not for those welfare programs? It's said all too often and I shouldn't be repeating this, but correlation does not equal causation.



    You get a lot out of taxation. For one, the government enforces law, security, and contracts. Have fun living in a state where people can rip you off whenever they like, where your liberties are infringed with no authority to petition to, where roads are paved with your own blood and sweat, where unregulated food and drink poisons you and unregulated products hurt you, and so on and so forth. You criticize people who want stuff for free, so I hope you recognize that it would be very difficult to obtain those benefits and others still if the government stopped "stealing" from you.

    Okay just speaking broadly now: I don't know if it's just an American thing, but y'all need to stop getting your bonnets rustled whenever the slightest suggestion of collective ownership or redistribution is mentioned. It's like you're all still in the Cold War with Domino Theory, and instead of fearing the fall of Vietnam to communism you think that one socialist policy is going take us all the way to Stalin mode. We do not have to go Chicken Little at the mere consideration of socialism.

    So let's consider each policy on whether it's beneficial to society or not, instead of just saying "oh it's freedom let's take that, that's always good" or "oh that's socialism we can't have that, that's always bad". If we define policies as good or bad just because of the political label we give them, that's cooking up a recipe for disaster.

    The issue is it creates welfare dependency. This article does not use the US, but England: http://www.cato.org/blog/how-welfare-state-traps-poor-dependency-british-version

    I never said anything about the not government creating a law that said companies had to label GMO's and other stuff in their food/products.

    Why does government have to build roads? http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/take-public-private-road-efficiency This article also describes how when the government runs things, they lack innovation. Nothing new. Can you please explain how your Democratic Socialism allows for small companies to grow despite the large company monopoly? From the way you are putting it, it sounds exactly what you dont want! You also mention how it will protect the environment. With a free market, people will begin to stop buying from the companies that ruin the environment. The companies that provide clean energy, or ruin the environment less will be bought from more. As a result, the environment stays safe.
     

    Somewhere_

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  • Poll is up. Make sure you all vote.

    I will! :D

    I am going Direct Democracy (Capitalist) because PC is small enough for it to be applied and representative democracy is flawed. We can see this today especially in the US. A president can win an election with only 17% of the popular vote due to the electoral college stuff.

    Im slightly disappointed there isn't an option for (although I wouldnt vote for it):

    "ANARCHY! No government, and free market runs everything!"
     
    25,539
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  • I will! :D

    I am going Direct Democracy (Capitalist) because PC is small enough for it to be applied and representative democracy is flawed. We can see this today especially in the US. A president can win an election with only 17% of the popular vote due to the electoral college stuff.

    Im slightly disappointed there isn't an option for (although I wouldnt vote for it):

    "ANARCHY! No government, and free market runs everything!"

    Anarchy would kind of defeat the purpose of the event xD
     
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