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The PCNation

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  • Monopolies are prevented, or rather restricted for 2 reasons:

    The larger the company, the harder it will be to control. It will fall apart eventually because of lack of teamwork, greedy people, etc.

    High prices and low quality will make room for new competition. People would buy the cheaper, better products from other companies. And these companies will be forced to create innovative ideas to grow.

    If monopolies are prevented and fall apart by themselves, then why did the US government step in to break up the monopolies of AT&T and Standard Oil? Should we have simply waited until it broke up by itself? Is it worth waiting years, potentially decades for big companies to abuse the market just because "it'll break up by itself"?

    Have you heard of barriers to entry? It's a pretty important concept in economics. High prices and low quality will not make room for new competition, if new start-ups cannot overcome barriers to entry. If you can't afford to build up the capital, or the economy of scale, or survive predatory pricing, then you can't fight a monopoly. Good products don't spring out of the ground, they need capital and investment and the survival of the firm to form. And companies don't have to be forced to create innovative ideas when they have a monopoly. That's why monopolies are bad - because they stifle growth - and that's why governments have legitimate reasons to break them up.

    A market with a monopoly is no longer a free market, because prices no longer reflect the balance between supply and demand, and therefore they don't properly signal for the allocation of resources any longer. If market forces aren't working, how do you expect the monopoly to just break up by itself?

    United States isn't capitalist. Similar to how we are a Republic, not a Democracy. We are almost, but not quite. Anyways, we are heading in a more left direction. For example, Net Neutrality was recently passed less than a year ago.

    You should provide definitions for all these words you're using because:

    Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods and services for profit, with a price system providing price signals for the allocation of the factors of production.

    Which aptly describes the economic system of the United States, yet you say the US isn't capitalist. And:

    Democracy is further defined as (a:) "government by the people; especially : rule of the majority (b:) " a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections."

    According to political scientist Larry Diamond, it consists of four key elements:

    A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections.
    The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life.
    Protection of the human rights of all citizens.
    A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

    Which again describes very well the political system of the United States, yet you say that the US isn't a democracy.

    As for social mobility (rather lack thereof), isn't that more of social expectations? And there are many other factors other than just economy such as schooling systems. And the public schools in the US aren't exactly good, and they vary on the location.

    You said about socialist systems that "everyone is stuck where they are- lower class! There will be no room to even move from the lower class to a higher class." But there's more social mobility in countries with more socialist economies meaning that less people get stuck in a particular class. That's what you meant when you said everyone's stuck in the same class, right?
     

    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

    10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
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  • If monopolies are prevented and fall apart by themselves, then why did the US government step in to break up the monopolies of AT&T and Standard Oil? Should we have simply waited until it broke up by itself? Is it worth waiting years, potentially decades for big companies to abuse the market just because "it'll break up by itself"?

    Have you heard of barriers to entry? It's a pretty important concept in economics. High prices and low quality will not make room for new competition, if new start-ups cannot overcome barriers to entry. If you can't afford to build up the capital, or the economy of scale, or survive predatory pricing, then you can't fight a monopoly. Good products don't spring out of the ground, they need capital and investment and the survival of the firm to form. And companies don't have to be forced to create innovative ideas when they have a monopoly. That's why monopolies are bad - because they stifle growth - and that's why governments have legitimate reasons to break them up.

    A market with a monopoly is no longer a free market, because prices no longer reflect the balance between supply and demand, and therefore they don't properly signal for the allocation of resources any longer. If market forces aren't working, how do you expect the monopoly to just break up by itself?



    You should provide definitions for all these words you're using because:



    Which aptly describes the economic system of the United States, yet you say the US isn't capitalist. And:



    Which again describes very well the political system of the United States, yet you say that the US isn't a democracy.



    You said about socialist systems that "everyone is stuck where they are- lower class! There will be no room to even move from the lower class to a higher class." But there's more social mobility in countries with more socialist economies meaning that less people get stuck in a particular class. That's what you meant when you said everyone's stuck in the same class, right?

    Most economists admit that the U.S. has become a mixed econmy, incorporating parts of capitalism and socialism. Most, if not all countries are now mix economies.


    We are a representative democracy or Republican Democracy (it's where our major parties get their names from).


    How about we try to come up with a bill of rights?
    I: Freedom of Speech, Religion, Press, and Assembly.
     
    5,983
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  • Most economists admit that the U.S. has become a mixed econmy, incorporating parts of capitalism and socialism. Most, if not all countries are now mix economies.

    Yes, but let's not muddy the waters here - the United States is a very capitalist country. Can you name even one government owned enterprise off the top of your head (if you're from the US)?

    For Canada, it's easy. We have the CBC (public broadcasting), Bank of Canada, Via Rail, Ontario Power Generation (in Ontario), the LCBO (liquor industry in Ontario), Metrolinx (manages public transport in the GTA), as well as OLG (gambling in Ontario). For a person living in Toronto, all of those are examples of government owned corporations that you'd bump into throughout your life and play significant roles in our economies.

    A lot of the posters are suggesting that the US isn't that capitalist and all, but let's be real here.
     

    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

    10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
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  • Yes, but let's not muddy the waters here - the United States is a very capitalist country. Can you name even one government owned enterprise off the top of your head (if you're from the US)?

    For Canada, it's easy. We have the CBC (public broadcasting), Bank of Canada, Via Rail, Ontario Power Generation (in Ontario), the LCBO (liquor industry in Ontario), Metrolinx (manages public transport in the GTA), as well as OLG (gambling in Ontario). For a person living in Toronto, all of those are examples of government owned corporations that you'd bump into throughout your life and play significant roles in our economies.

    A lot of the posters are suggesting that the US isn't that capitalist and all, but let's be real here.
    Compared to Canada and other countries we are quite capitalistic.
    Let's see there's Amtrak and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Amtrak isn't very useful for us who don't live in the east coast. There are likely more but I don't know them. Our government tends to not advertise these things.


    Btw does Canada has a good rail system in the west? The east (close to the U.S. border) is the most populated area of Canada irc. Amtrak could use some suggestions for us in the Western U.S.


    There is no clear boundary between Capitalist and Socialism anymore (if it's ever been clear), there's a spectrum ranging from US to the Nordic countries. I think we should avoid labelling at this point and implement sound policy rather than get caught up between the two.
     

    Somewhere_

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  • Why natural monopolies do not exist:

    https://mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly

    Example of a supposed "natural" monopoly and why it is actually "unnatural:"

    https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1994/11/cj14n2-6.pdf

    Anyways, government intervention is usually never good, and actually creates monopolies. For example, the postal service is a monopoly.

    Another reason why government intervention is bad:

    https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/markets-monopolies
     
    5,983
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  • Why natural monopolies do not exist:

    https://mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly

    Example of a supposed "natural" monopoly and why it is actually "unnatural:"

    https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1994/11/cj14n2-6.pdf

    How is this relevant to the discussion? I don't think I've mentioned natural/unnatural monopolies.

    Anyways, government intervention is usually never good, and actually creates monopolies. For example, the postal service is a monopoly.

    And what's so bad about a postal service monopoly? Don't we like having delivery standards and a common postage rate, so a person in Alaska gets the same postal service as someone in New York? If there wasn't a postal service monopoly, then there'd be no guarantee of service.

    Anyways, what about those times when government intervention broke monopolies?

    Another reason why government intervention is bad:

    https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/markets-monopolies

    Do you understand what the article is saying? In any case, I respectfully disagree with Mr. Rahn. It's unfair to compare the telecom and the hotel industry because the development of telecom infrastructure is something that everybody can use. If you had telecom industries building infrastructure that only serves them and no one else, then you're missing out on economies of scale. You'll have certain areas that are underserviced. If every telecom company only followed their personal interest, then everybody loses because a poorly connected telecom infrastructure is inefficient. Does that make sense?
     

    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

    10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
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  • How is this relevant to the discussion? I don't think I've mentioned natural/unnatural monopolies.



    And what's so bad about a postal service monopoly? Don't we like having delivery standards and a common postage rate, so a person in Alaska gets the same postal service as someone in New York? If there wasn't a postal service monopoly, then there'd be no guarantee of service.

    Anyways, what about those times when government intervention broke monopolies?



    Do you understand what the article is saying? In any case, I respectfully disagree with Mr. Rahn. It's unfair to compare the telecom and the hotel industry because the development of telecom infrastructure is something that everybody can use. If you had telecom industries building infrastructure that only serves them and no one else, then you're missing out on economies of scale. You'll have certain areas that are underserviced. If every telecom company only followed their personal interest, then everybody loses because a poorly connected telecom infrastructure is inefficient. Does that make sense?
    Our Postal Service here in the U.S. is inefficient. Their monopoly has been broken for the most part with the rise of other Postal services like Fed Ex in addition to E-mail. So our socialist elements are inefficient compared to their private company counterparts. It's one reason for why Americans don't think Socialism will work here...

    Anyways, Enough about the U.S. and Canada. We're talking about PC Nation here. I'll be nice if we knew what resources we have to develop or share depending on which route we take.
     
    25,553
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  • Assume as far as natural resources go that we're in the middle ground, as for man-made resources we currently don't have any to export because we don't have a country. It'd be in the hands of private entities until such time as governance is determined.
     

    Melody

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  • Shouldn't we be defining how our government should work right now? Like we've hammered down that we want it to be democratic, and I personally think it should be democratic by popular votes, so now we all need to draft up some framework.

    For example the first rule should be that we can't change away from being democratic without a unanimous vote (100% of voters support). Secondly we should decide how votes are going to be conducted. I suggest via poll thread, but you guys can suggest other methods of ballot too. Google Docs Forms are fairly robust. :)
     
    25,553
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    Years
  • Shouldn't we be defining how our government should work right now? Like we've hammered down that we want it to be democratic, and I personally think it should be democratic by popular votes, so now we all need to draft up some framework.

    For example the first rule should be that we can't change away from being democratic without a unanimous vote (100% of voters support). Secondly we should decide how votes are going to be conducted. I suggest via poll thread, but you guys can suggest other methods of ballot too. Google Docs Forms are fairly robust. :)

    It sounds like you're talking a constitution, that's the next part of the event for those interested. If you're all ready to actually vote on what system we use just let me know.
     

    Thepowaofhax

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    I still say you should reveal what natural resources we have in our little country, @Gimmepie.
     
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  • I still say you should reveal what natural resources we have in our little country, @Gimmepie.

    Let's go with what I'm familiar with then and say that our primary exports are raw ores and that we also have fairly decent farming/livestock and timber. How does that sound?
     

    Thepowaofhax

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    Let's go with what I'm familiar with then and say that our primary exports are raw ores and that we also have fairly decent farming/livestock and timber. How does that sound?

    Seeing as such ores could be coal, we could easily be very profitable as a Capitalist nation assuming other countries around us are ok with fossil fuel burning. We should exploit this as well as other ores (such as silver for circuitry, Etc).
     

    Somewhere_

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  • Shouldn't we be defining how our government should work right now? Like we've hammered down that we want it to be democratic, and I personally think it should be democratic by popular votes, so now we all need to draft up some framework.

    For example the first rule should be that we can't change away from being democratic without a unanimous vote (100% of voters support). Secondly we should decide how votes are going to be conducted. I suggest via poll thread, but you guys can suggest other methods of ballot too. Google Docs Forms are fairly robust. :)

    Why dont we try and brainstorm for something other than a Democracy? I mean, its the best thing we have, but Democracy isn't truly 100% freedom. If its a group deciding on what rights we can and can't have, that isn't exactly freedom...

    I think it might be a little hard lol. And a direct Democracy like ancient Athens isn't exactly applicable. Not to mention you can't appease everyone.

    Well now I sound like an Ancapist. If we truly want to represent everyone, we just wouldnt have a government. Rather than a strong fed, could local governments work better? But this worries me for defense against other nations because if the local governments aren't unified somewhat, each one would be taken out by any military.
     

    Melody

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  • Why dont we try and brainstorm for something other than a Democracy? I mean, its the best thing we have, but Democracy isn't truly 100% freedom. If its a group deciding on what rights we can and can't have, that isn't exactly freedom...

    I think it might be a little hard lol. And a direct Democracy like ancient Athens isn't exactly applicable. Not to mention you can't appease everyone.

    Well now I sound like an Ancapist. If we truly want to represent everyone, we just wouldnt have a government. Rather than a strong fed, could local governments work better? But this worries me for defense against other nations because if the local governments aren't unified somewhat, each one would be taken out by any military.

    The tradeoffs for a democracy are acceptable. If you're worried about minority rights, then representative democracy is also a path we could take.
     

    Somewhere_

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  • The tradeoffs for a democracy are acceptable. If you're worried about minority rights, then representative democracy is also a path we could take.

    Because America's representative democracy totally worked for LGBTQ+. There is NO reason why a group of people should be deciding what the citizens can or can not do (except for murder and stuff like that of course). Shouldn't they have had the right to marry in the first place? Why does government even have to be in marriage?

    this is why we need a limited government! The government should not be dictating our personal lives! I am a cis straight Bible-believing Christian too.
     

    Thepowaofhax

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    Why dont we try and brainstorm for something other than a Democracy? I mean, its the best thing we have, but Democracy isn't truly 100% freedom. If its a group deciding on what rights we can and can't have, that isn't exactly freedom...

    I think it might be a little hard lol. And a direct Democracy like ancient Athens isn't exactly applicable. Not to mention you can't appease everyone.

    Well now I sound like an Ancapist. If we truly want to represent everyone, we just wouldnt have a government. Rather than a strong fed, could local governments work better? But this worries me for defense against other nations because if the local governments aren't unified somewhat, each one would be taken out by any military.
    A Bill of Rights and harsh consequences to those who try to infringe on others rights should be put in place (preferably a death penalty for those who want to limit rights in office in those Bill of Rights. However, they should still have the Freedom of Speech to say what they want to remove from it, etc.)

    Because America's representative democracy totally worked for LGBTQ+. There is NO reason why a group of people should be deciding what the citizens can or can not do (except for murder and stuff like that of course). Shouldn't they have had the right to marry in the first place? Why does government even have to be in marriage?

    this is why we need a limited government! The government should not be dictating our personal lives! I am a cis straight Bible-believing Christian too.

    And you're implying our Bill of Rights in our potential constitution can't prevent the ABC army from having their rights infringed upon? And even back then, a majority around the time where Gay Marriage was an issue in 2001 thought that marriage was a Christian Rite. Therefore, many saw no reason for there to be Gat Marriage. It has changed now, and legal marriage is now a thing. Not the one by a preacher, but one by judge. Therefore, that group finally got their demands from our government in the form of the Supreme Court demanding it. While yes, I say we need a limited government, a Democracy is essentially one depending on how it is built and will fall when the citizens become willingly ignorant.

    Also, identity politics such as what you've said (claiming you're CIS-Straight Christian) is not going to be healthy for a democracy. Such neo-Progressive jargon attracts toxic neo-Progressives. They hurt the groups they claim to be fighting for most of the time and always convey an image that they seem weak enough to fall over MERE WORDS. I do not know about you, but if our citizens become such a toxic collective, we could have another atrocity at hand.
     
    Last edited:

    Somewhere_

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  • A Bill of Rights and harsh consequences to those who try to infringe on others rights should be put in place (preferably a death penalty for those who want to limit rights in office in those Bill of Rights. However, they should still have the Freedom of Speech to say what they want to remove from it, etc.)

    And you're implying our Bill of Rights in our potential constitution can't prevent the ABC army from having their rights infringed upon? And even back then, a majority around the time where Gay Marriage was an issue in 2001 thought that marriage was a Christian Rite. Therefore, many saw no reason for there to be Gat Marriage. It has changed now, and legal marriage is now a thing. Not the one by a preacher, but one by judge. Therefore, that group finally got their demands from our government in the form of the Supreme Court demanding it. While yes, I say we need a limited government, a Democracy is essentially one depending on how it is built and will fall when the citizens become willingly ignorant.

    Also, identity politics such as what you've said (claiming you're CIS-Straight Christian) is not going to be healthy for a democracy. Such neo-Progressive jargon attracts toxic neo-Progressives. They hurt the groups they claim to be fighting for most of the time and always convey an image that they seem weak enough to fall over MERE WORDS. I do not know about you, but if our citizens become such a toxic collective, we could have another atrocity at hand.

    I dont exactly agree with the neo-Progressive vocabulary- I was just using it to push my point a bit haha. In my opinion, it is unnecessary. Some go as far to actually SEGREGATE the different groups for EQUALITY.

    Everyone should have the right to free speech. There should be a Bill of Rights that protects the people and a constitution that limits the hell out of the government.

    Marriage is a contract between two people, regardless of gender or sexuality. There is no reason why the government should collect a tax for it or interfere in any way, other than allowing judges to perform these marriages. And pastors/priests/etc should not be forced to marry anyone- that is Christian/Jewish/ other religion marriage, which is still a contract. If a group of people do not believe another person's marriage fits their version of marriage, they shouldn't have to marry them (unless it is a judge).
     

    Thepowaofhax

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    Marriage is a contract between two people, regardless of gender or sexuality. There is no reason why the government should collect a tax for it or interfere in any way, other than allowing judges to perform these marriages. And pastors/priests/etc should not be forced to marry anyone- that is Christian/Jewish/ other religion marriage, which is still a contract. If a group of people do not believe another person's marriage fits their version of marriage, they shouldn't have to marry them (unless it is a judge).

    That depends on the definition; as there are a few regarding this, some being rituals and others definitions in the rule of law.. If I'm going by the Christian rite, it is with a man and a women. However, for all tense and purposes, it would be in our best interests to go by the legal definition while creating our country. This way, we can insure that everyone is equal.
     
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