Aegislash Suspect Test

[Zeffy]

Well, after the Deoxys ban, Smogon has finally listened to the community and announced Aegislash as the next suspect. If you've never played as or against Aegislash, then you should consider yourself lucky.

this is a link; good observation zeff​

I think we can all agree that Aegislash is one of the most, if not the most, versatile Pokemon in XY OU. In fact, it's so versatile that it can counter one of its counters by merely changing sets. Though the mixed attacker variant is more or less the most used Aegislash set in the ladder, I think you'll find that its other sets are just as potent. That aside, it also has a nifty ability with a matching helpful move - Stance Change and King's Shield. In addition to a pseudo 720 BST, Aegislash is something of a threat to most. With that in mind, please share to us what you think about Aegislash and whether or not it should be banned.

Some questions that might come up:

Is Aegislash broken? How?
What are the surefire counters for all Aegislash sets? More specifically, is there a true counter to Aegislash?
How does Aegislash affect the XY OU metagame in general? Elaborate.
Without Aegislash, what do you think will happen to the meta?

 

[srinator]

Is Aegislash broken? How?

Stance change is what makes Aegislash rise above most pokemon in ou,esp since going into that defensive stance not only protects u from any attack bar status moves but also cripples physical contact attackers. It allows it to tank hits as well dish out one of the most powerful shadow ball in game. It's versatility is also a major factor since you can't always have the right check to it.
Almost every team keeps one or more aegi checks and that should say enough.

What are the surefire counters for all Aegislash sets? More specifically, is there a true counter to Aegislash?
I don't think Aegislash has a true counter since it can deal massive damage to anything if it gets a chance, but life orb exca and landorus can p ko it, if it decides to stay in. Landorus can deal with most physical aegi's, give that it hasn't set up a lot.strong eq users don't need to worry about kings shield either, but no one is ever safe switching into aegi. Chest with bullet proof can make shadow ball aegi cry but flash cannon p Reks it. Mons like mandibuzz and hippo can check to an extent but sub toxic ruins their day.
So I would say no there is no true counter.
Please don't say Bisharp since it's not a counter, it's simple a check.

How does Aegislash affect the XY OU metagame in general? Elaborate

Aegislash is the most centralised mon in ou this tbh, but what really needs to be considered is the fact that it's also one of the best mixed attacker we have ever seen. 150/150 attack stats, r u kidding me?it can be used both in stall as well as ho, also so many pokemons that were ou last gen will see much more usage when aegi gets banned. The fact that many mons were deemed bad in ou because of one pokemon should say a lot about it. It's kind of really shaped the current meta.


Without Aegislash, what do you think will happen to the meta?

To be honest I think many mons will come out of their hiding and megas like garde and medicham will see more usage. I also think rachi can become popular now.

 

[Anti]

Aeg is obviously really versatile, but I do think it's worth pointing out that rarely does such versatility really cost you, and while nothing counters all of its sets, there are plenty of good initial switch-ins to Aegislash that can scout for its impact with more of a margin of error than against other "what set is it running?" Pokemon like Deoxys-S, Mega Lucario, or even something like DPP Salamence. It's an amazing pivot, breaker, tank, etc., but while I think its versatility adds to its effectiveness, playing cautiously--and having a really solid initial switch-in, like Mandibuzz, Heatran, or Mega Venusaur--can prevent it from taking out a Pokemon from sheer surprise factor. Conversely, its versatility is much more troublesome for me just in the sheer amount of good sets it can run. The breaker, tank, Toxic staller, and SD sets all have different counters and can devastate a team even if you know what it is. So for me, Aeg's versatility is less problematic in-battle, but it becomes an issue during team-building. It's one of the few Pokemon that you can really never be over-prepared for.

Ghost is an OP offensive type and Aeg has the perfect tools to use it. Simple enough. Its defensive typing is more of a mixed bag, and while it allows Aeg to pivot better than probably every pivot ever, it is forced out by a pretty large number of OU threats: Bisharp, both Charizard formes, some Mega Venusaur, Tyranitar, Heatran, Keldeo, Greninja, LO Terrakion, Rotom-W, Landorus, Landorus-T, etc. These are dangerous Pokemon, and King's Shield can only do so much. As an avid/obsessive Aeg user, I find its low Speed and vulnerability in blade form (and even shield form if many of the above threats come in) to be a significant downside to using it. Of course, it also checks or straight-up counters a ton of annoying Pokemon and can Pursuit trap some of them. I guess my point is that Aeg's typing and ability allow it to be the dominant force of OU, but just as soon as it takes momentum for you, you'll have to deal with some other behemoths. Who likes switching into Landorus? Charizard? If only 60 base Speed weren't so exploitable (and maxing it out to net surprise kills, outpace Azumarill and Mawile, etc. really compromises its bulk).

So not to run this into the ground, but it really is DPP Latias to me--easily the best glue Pokemon in the metagame, fantastic pivoting capabilities, unique and useful defensive typing, great stats and offensive typing as well, and bulky, difficult to wear down, and fairly versatile. And both are/were "metagame glue" Pokemon that undoubtedly define the metagame and almost singlehandedly limit certain Pokemon while increasing the utility of others. Both can be Pursuit trapped and can cede momentum (as Latias often did to prime U-turn spammer Scizor). And I think the comparison is useful because I think Latias is a fascinating ban case itself, where you could make a compelling argument for or against a ban. If Aegislash gets banned, the metagame will almost certainly profoundly shift in a way it didn't when, say, M-Kanga was banned (hey let's just use a new OP attacker!!!), as Aeg is pretty irreplaceable. Just like Latias. I guess it depends how much you think centralization is important in determining if a Pokemon is broken.

The writing has been on the wall for this test for a very long time. I think it will probably get banned. Personally, I'm pretty torn about it. If you pressed me, I would probably say that we should BAN Aegislash simply because it's so good at what it does and is so difficult to stop without it doing its job. It's one of the few Pokemon in OU that really can transcend bad match-ups and still somehow get two kills and hold off key opposing Pokemon for much of the match. And then there are King's Shield 50/50s, which can be super egregious but are much easier to teambuild around than, say, priortity Taunts and Thunder Waves from Thundurus which are just the worst. @_@

Fascinating Pokemon, can't wait for the conclusion of the test.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Aegislash shouldn't be banned in my opinion.

It's probably the best Pokemon in OU after Thundurus right now, but I don't think it's that broken. See, most of its sets share the same weaknesses: a Knock Off/Pursuit vulnerability, a reliance on King's Shield and a huge weakness to Mega Gyarados/Charizard X. King's Shield allows the opponent to somewhat play around Aegislash with a setup move, a hazard or a double switch.

The Shuca Berry set with Shadow Ball, HP Ice, Flash Cannon and King's Shield is the best in my opinion since it allows Aegislash to trounce some of its checks, such as Mamoswine.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Aegislash is broken and i think anti sums it up. Aegislash can go mixed, special, fast, sub Toxic, physical. Basically it can be tailored to do anything and having base 150 defenses AND offenses its clear to see why its broken. Guess wrong? You just lost a pokemon or got something crippled badly. Ghost is also the BEST STAB move to have in the game at this current time.

It can also crap all over its checks and "counters" easily (it has no counters or really any good checks). So much so that you need more than one thing to beat it or your team will probably get picked apart by it because Aegislash also has ridiculous durability and is so easy to bring in. It also supports the team with Kings Shield which just makes it easier to bring in. Hippowdon and Mandibuzz arent counters, Charizard-X isnt a counter, Megasaur isnt a counter, they are checks and pretty bad checks because they all get worn down so easily its unreal. Hippowdon loses to Balloon sets (also LO special moves still 2hko sp.def variations), Mandibuzz and Zard cant take a Head Smash. Flash Cannon is also taken non too kindly from Mandibuzz. Megados gets hammered by Sacred Sword (also cant switch in cos Shadow Ball wastes normal Gyarados and it also cant KO unboosted). Megasaur loses to SD Iron Heads/Head Smash and cant really do anything relevant back apart from....Earthquake for a 4hko...lol. The phys def version also hates taking special moves. Sp.Def Heatran loses to fast versions and cant really take LO Shadow Balls or Sacred Swords like at all. Notice the trend here?

My gripe with Aegislash in a nutshell is that its too unpredictable, too easy to switch in and hard to wear down and that its counters and checks frankly suck in counter and checking it because they either lose to one of its moves or have no recovery and cant do any relevant damage back.

 

[oshizlgzngahr]

I hate the thing, I hope it's banned. It belongs in ubers, considering it's used in ubers more than some actual ubers!

 

[champagnepapi]

Hmm I am on the fence about this poke, it's 2 potentially broken aspects are very potent, that it can force 50-50 predicts with KS and potentially beat even dd tar or zard x, and the fact that shadow ball rips through teams. I deter from using psychics on most of my squads because of this, Aegis can weaken almost any member of a team easily without prediction and comes in on a lot of pokes, with stuff like lati@s being complete aegis bait. I think this ease of use and potency is really questionable, but I am not sure it should be banned, I dont think its as versatile as many people claim [people bring up the fact that it can run multiple sets effectively as needed, but SD isnt ripping through teams like spooky plate, subtoxic gets destroyed by cm clefable and bisharp].

Edit: I was lurking the megathread and found an interesting post, wondering what everyone thinks.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ost-of-perdition.3511596/page-15#post-5588573

 

[BadPokemon]

Any bulky wall with scald/willo/leech seed/ etc can defeat it. My manectric takes care of them easily with flamethrower. Kings shield doesn't protect from status. It's not OP unless you let it set up. I personally don't have a problem with it. Deoxys shouldn't have bean banned, either. Knock off is so rampant and any fast dark type can OHKO it.

 

[Anti]

I don't understand why Mega Kangaskhan is Uber.

Any bulky wall with Thunder Wave/Will-O-Wisp/Leech Seed/Scald/*Ghost typing*/etc. can beat it. My Aegislash (!) takes care of them easily with SubToxic. That little weird baby Kanga doesn't protect from status. It's not OP unless you let it set up. I personally don't have a problem with it. Lugia shouldn't be banned either. Knock Off and Stealth Rock are so rampant and any fast Dark-type can OHKO it.

 

[Zeffy]

I don't understand why Mega Kangaskhan is Uber.

I think part of how it became Uber is Parental Bond Seismic Toss, but I'm not quite sure. I wasn't paying attention then.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, didn't they quick ban Mega Kanga? -checks- Yes they did. The reasons were raw power, nearly impossible to revenge kill, and limits team building. It's worth noting that SubToxic Aegislash wasn't really a thing back then, just SD and mixed. Now that I think about it, there's several safe switch ins for Mega Kanga buut the thread is about Aegislash, so I'd rather not continue :p

 

[Anti]

Read the post before mine. Then read my post again.

 

[MoxieInfinite]

I hate the thing, I hope it's banned. It belongs in ubers, considering it's used in ubers more than some actual ubers!

How good it is in Ubers has nothing to do with it being (potentially) broken in OU. Aegislash is trash in Ubers, where its only real niche is checking Xerneas. Mega Scizor and Landorus Therian are both better in Ubers than Aegislash, but they arent broken in OU at all.

 

[srinator]

How good it is in Ubers has nothing to do with it being (potentially) broken in OU. Aegislash is trash in Ubers, where its only real niche is checking Xerneas. Mega Scizor and Landorus Therian are both better in Ubers than Aegislash, but they arent broken in OU at all.

I agree, aegi's main aim is always checking xern and only because of geoxern it carries gyro ball. To be honest it may be broken in ou but not that (don't kill me for this) good in ubers in my opinion . Don't get me wrong checking geoxern is a massive feat but I ran a sub geoxern and I know many do the same, and hp fire does like
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 204-242 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Which is still quite a lot

This is what I wonder tho, some mons may be deemed broken in a specific tier but below par in other tiers, banning seems idk kinda unfair.

 

[Esoj]

Well, Aegislash, for me, is not so "overpowered" as sounds here. I've built teams with Aegislash and it's just like other good pokemon. Is a strong pokemon, versatile, useful, but not a superstar. It lacks of speed, Stance Change can be a set up bait if it is well predicted and it's weak to common attacks like EQ, Flamethrower and Shadow Ball (to name a few).

Unlike Kanga (for example) this pokemon can be defeated or stopped in most cases by several pokes: Gliscor, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Swampert, Quagsire, Gastrodon, Megazards, Mandibuzz, etc. Swampert can hit it with EQ, sponge one Shadow ball or claw and hit it back with a possible 2hko, Swampert can move twice while Aegislash can only move one turn, like most of the cases; Charizard Y can burn it out with stab+sun flamethrower, Aegislash will not have time to give a Head Smash; unaware Quagsire does not care about stats boost, it can defeat Aegislash with Scald and EQ while recovering from any damage. Just some examples.

I think it fits ok in the place it is. Is strong against some pokemon and is weak to others, showing normal flaws.
If it get banned, what it will do with the Ubers? a check to Xerneas and Giratina? kinda interesting, but would be a waste of a great pokemon that make a better job in the current place.

 

[oshizlgzngahr]

How good it is in Ubers has nothing to do with it being (potentially) broken in OU. Aegislash is trash in Ubers, where its only real niche is checking Xerneas. Mega Scizor and Landorus Therian are both better in Ubers than Aegislash, but they arent broken in OU at all.

When you can switch between the attack stats of Deoxys-N and the defense stats of Deoxys-D (Almost), with a move that halves your attack, then there's a problem. Most people have to run 2-3 Pokemon just to hit it hard. And when you do hit it hard with EQ, there goes weakness policy and that's multiple Pokemon being sacrificed just to kill the thing. Burn him, nope he can go specially based, paralyze him, he has gyro ball. Aegislash is broken, it's unpredictable, and it's stats are too good. He needs to be uber. I had less of a problem with mega Lucario (a Pokemon banned to ubers) than I did with Aegislash.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Gliscor, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Swampert, Quagsire, Gastrodon

All 2hko'd by Shadow Ball. Can only switch in once in Landorus-T's case who only wins because its faster. The rest lose.


Megazards, Mandibuzz

Headsmash Ohko's all of these. Fast Aeigislash also beats Mandibuzz with Flash Cannon.


<stuff about swampert>

Swampert is 2hko'd by Shadow Ball so it cannot switch in.

If it get banned, what it will do with the Ubers? a check to Xerneas and Giratina? kinda interesting, but would be a waste of a great pokemon that make a better job in the current place.


Irrelevant. What a pokemon does in ubers doesnt matter if its banned. Even if it sucks in ubers (see: Deoxys-N) its still deemed uber.

Imo people should stop looking for ♥♥♥♥♥♥ counters that dont actually work against this thing or have no reliable recovery so take like 70% from switching in once so arent actually very good counters or checks. It doesnt have ANY counters it has all the tools and moves to ♥♥♥♥ on anything you switch into it and its not like it doesnt actually run them all commonly sooo. :/

 

[Esoj]

Aegislash has all the tools to hit every pokemon in the tier, yes, but it's unable to put them in risk using every move in a single battle.

Example, one of the mixed sets, Aegislash running with KS (forced move) + Shadow ball and Iron head (obligatory stab) the fourth slot is variable and has important weight in what it will cover. Head Smash (uncommon) may hit Mandibuzz and the Megazards for strong damage, would not be the best weapon to hit defensive Heatran, which would take neutral damage from HS and SB, (to take it down, 3hko with SB and 2hko combining SS and SB) while Aegislash Shield is 2ohko by Lava Plume; if there is Sacred Sword in the fourth slot (before mentioned), can deal huge amount of damage to Heatran, but will not touch Charizard Y for the proper damage. Can do SB, just that it will not stay under the sun to give a try. Also, I can mention Diggesby, predicting switch to SB, immune, will ohko Aegislash with EQ even in shield forme. SS with Quiet nature will 2hko it, Diggesby could take it and strike back (just the worst case)

It may not have serious counters; it may be tricky to take it out, but it's not without checks that can threaten its stay in the battle. May not be the best ones, but they do the work. Aegislash may have every weapon, but it can't be successful in every kind of scenario with a single set, defending teams can benefit from this and turn around the strategy.

IDK and IDC if I'm wrong with this, but this is how I see if a pokemon is over the line, and for me, Aegislash is not over the line.

 

[SmashBrony]

From what I've read in this thead, it sounds like we have an another Garchomp on our hands:
A powerful, versatile pokemon that has all the tools it needs to counter it's "counters."

I can see Esoj's point about Aegislash not being able to beat all of it's "counters" at once,
but the question is:

Can people figure out what set it's using in time, or will they be destroyed by the living sword & shield?

 

[MoxieInfinite]

When you can switch between the attack stats of Deoxys-N and the defense stats of Deoxys-D (Almost), with a move that halves your attack, then there's a problem. Most people have to run 2-3 Pokemon just to hit it hard. And when you do hit it hard with EQ, there goes weakness policy and that's multiple Pokemon being sacrificed just to kill the thing. Burn him, nope he can go specially based, paralyze him, he has gyro ball. Aegislash is broken, it's unpredictable, and it's stats are too good. He needs to be uber. I had less of a problem with mega Lucario (a Pokemon banned to ubers) than I did with Aegislash.

I didn't say Aegislash WASN'T broken, I said it's ass in Ubers and that it doesn't matter if a Pokemon is bad or good in Ubers, what matters is that it (potentially) is broken in OU. Example: Deoxys-N.

 

[jokerslayer]

Stance Change/King's Shield is a nice tactical aspect and not something that's super hard to predict, adds variety to the game. The problem is that Aegislash has such massive attack/defense on both sides it's almost become a simple guessing game that results in do-or-die situations most of the time.

Just my 2 cents, not an experienced competitive player myself.