Closing the VIP Forum

[Caite-chan]

I really don't see much point to a Discord chat. I just feel like it's one more thing to draw people away from the forums.

 

[Aquacorde]

It's not a waste of time, doll. Exploring ideas and even revisiting familiar ideas from time to time is a good way to keep us dynamic and evolving. The minute we give up and say "why bother talking about change, it's a waste of time" is the moment we stop changing, and communities that don't change eventually go extinct.

if that's the case then i wish more people would consider the changes being proposed instead of continuing to outright nix them without offering improvement or alternatives. golden rules of improv or whatever

but that's another discussion as usual

 

[Nick]

I know this doesn't contribute much to this discussion, but this section isn't going to close because Steve wants it open and for it to remain a perk for donators. That's always been the underlying reason why it wasn't abolished.

Do I agree with that reasoning? No.

Let's remain conscious of the fact that people mostly donate for the perks. Let's not argue that that should or shouldn't be a reason for or against something. Let's just keep that thought in mind, because facts are facts and there's nothing exactly wrong with the concept of someone donating to get something. Yeah, it's more of a transaction than a donation, but that's beside the point.

The VIP forum being listed as a perk is a cruel misconception for potential donators and it always has been. There hasn't been a single point in time where this forum was really worth it enough to call it a perk. It has always been inactive, and for good reason. When I see "VIP Forum" listed as a perk, I do not picture a forum that barely anyone recognizes or replies to. I picture this awesome secret hangout where a few select people can access and talk about things. We have a couple of those forums. They're in the staff section. The VIP Forum to me translates to "this isn't the staff section, but it could feel like the staff section." Obviously more casual than the forum politics that are discussed, but not necessarily on purpose as it's actually pretty encouraged to talk about forum politics.

But there are other areas of the forum with more intense, responsive, and interactive discussions that people would rather go to. Threads here go a long time before people realize that there is a discussion happening, which makes people not want to post here. I know a lot of us would rather have a discussion than having to wait a couple hours up to a few days before someone finally acknowledges the fact that we think whatever it is we made a post about. And that boils down to the reason why, I think, most people opt to not utilize this forum. Which, in my opinion, is a good one, because I know I would rather have that activity in a forum where the activity matters and contributes to the overall success of the community.

 

[Corrin]

I'm just a very shy person I guess ^^ But I'm also afraid those other then the few I'm used to in here dislike me, so I don't venture around too much.

 

[Salzorrah]

Okay so, even if everyone does agree to close VIP, even IF the staff admins do archive this, Steve is strongly pro-VIP, to the point he even voted twice for No. If the staff admins do axe the forum, Steve can simply just bring it back, no problem, so unless he leaves the site, or heaven forbid an uprising happens (which I assume you won't do that, you're all sane right?), VIP stays.

However, while I do side with pro-VIP, I do see why you'd want to axe the forum, because it's really barren. So here are some ideas that could potentially work though.

VIP Forum reworked as a "congress-style" forum for official forum matters - At first, I liked Anna's idea of it being platinum-exclusive, and tbh I was going to side with that because if you add supporters as a whole, it isn't really a VIP forum anymore, I think there should be a small group, because it takes away from being an exclusive forum, but then there's Adri's point wherein it could become clique-y, and would basically become VIP Treehouse "cool kidz only club", which I don't like, so it dawned on me.

I don't know if this is possible, but I'm sure staff can handle it, but what about accessing the VIP forum as invite only, like you can access it, if you ask the staff admins to give you access, Of course, you have to be a supporter to ask, and maybe even a post count of 1000 or so (which I'll get into why later), and you can access VIP Forum 2.0

So what's going to be in VIP 2.0? Like I said earlier, a "congress-style" forum for official forum matters. Other than maybe a DCC, the forum should be the bridge between the staff and the community, because right now, I still don't see it, even if you say its been better. People who choose to get access to the forum can take on discussions about issues in and around the forums, let the supporters know of changes in the forum ahead of time, and gauge their reactions first. Basically, I'm envisioning a RT like feel, but about the forums themselves. Reason why I said a "congress-style" forum because think of it like the supporters who get access to this forum be the House of Representatives or something, while the moderators and staff are the Senate and stuff. This is also why I suggest it being supporters only, and have a post count requirement of 1000 because most probably, these are the people who would want to help the forums in any way they can. I guess you could add regular members in, but have their post count requirement be higher, so if you have any suggestions on how to put the requirements in, I'm all ears.

One of the problems that is evident is the gap between the staff and the members, and while you can argue that its better in recent years, it's still there, and people can see it, especially in this thread, where the staff are literally just saying no to the proposals suggested here, while giving no other alternative other than killing the forum. I'm envisioning that this forum could bridge that gap, and hopefully be more transparent than the current system.

I'll try to explain this better once you guys give your take on it. I hope that you don't dismiss this as some crazy suggestion, and I hope that you can give some ideas on how to rework this as something viable instead.

Also, I do think that the Scrapbox should stay, and it could probably be expanded to regular members as well.

 

[Nina]

I'm not saying this to be snarky; out of every thread that's in forum staff at this moment, there's probably like zero that supporters would really have their input useful on.

To be specific so no one gets their feelings hurt: It's not that non-mod thoughts about potential discussions are not useful, it's that supporter specific input is not different than another member's in this regard.
A supporters thoughts on A&D rules isn't going to mean more to me than a regular member's thoughts who is a regular of A&D, and who doesn't have 1000 posts. I only hit 1000 shortly before I was modded.

 

[Klippy]

Why are you talking like there will be a coup and that this is some geopolitical quagmire...? Super overboard there at the start of your post. Steve wanting VIP open is peanuts to us and certainly not as dramatic as needing to remove anyone from staff.

Secondly, basically no to the idea. We are not going to allow paid access to any sort of forum management. We run PC just fine off of merit and contribution, not who can donate money to us or get access to the "Congress".

 

[Cay]

congress forum would turn in to mean girls pc edition real fuckin quick

 

[Alex]

lets agree on a No and shelf this conversation until 2018

 

[Salzorrah]

Strongly disagree to the idea of a "Congress-style" version of the VIP forum, but mostly because... what kind of things would really belong here for supporters to "approve" of? I'm not saying this to be snarky; out of every thread that's in forum staff at this moment, there's probably like zero that supporters would really have their input useful on.

I'd just like to see some broad examples of things you would think would work in that system. When you say forum issues, do you mean things regarding specific forums in particular? Like, when you say "discussions about issues in or around the forums", can you be more specific about that?

Basically any changes to the forum that concern the community as a whole, like for example, when a major change happens in the community right now without any forewarning, usually there would be criticisms from the community, and people would ask the staff to revert, and stuff. With VIP 2.0, this could possibly be preempted by atleast notifying the people who have access to the forum (since all of them are going to be people who are active, and care about the forums), and asking their opinion on the matter. Note that the people who do have access to the forum (excluding mods and hstaff) don't have the power to approve but they can give their take on the issue.

If you're really worried about giving us more power than we should have, atleast notify us on any incoming changes to the forums that you think would matter, instead of waking up one morning and we see a change that happened without any warning.

To be specific so no one gets their feelings hurt: It's not that non-mod thoughts about potential discussions are not useful, it's that supporter specific input is not different than another member's in this regard.
A supporters thoughts on A&D rules isn't going to mean more to me than a regular member's thoughts who is a regular of A&D, and who doesn't have 1000 posts. I only hit 1000 shortly before I was modded.

You're right, and I do see that any input is important regardless if you're a supporter or not, or an active poster or not. I suggested that it would be so because at the end of the day, these people are gonna stick around PC for a long while, and they would be the ones who will be affected first, like overall changes to the forums, most likely people who aren't active to the site will not be bothered by it, but those who do, will. Granted, being a supporter, or having a high post count should not be solely indicative of whether you're an active member or not, but we don't really have anything else to consider on what constitutes being an active member of the community is, and personally, I thought of those 2 requirements being characteristics of being one, so if you have any suggestions on what could be improved here, I'll listen.

As for the local sections, you can consider VIP 2.0 as some second-opinion forum. Let's say for example, you're planning a change in A&D, you obviously ask your regulars first, because they are the ones who actually visit, and have discussions in the forum, but if you are still second guessing, or your regulars' opinions aren't enough, you could ask it here, to the people who have access on the forum for advice and opinions, because most likely, they're going to reply, because they volunteered to join and help.

Why are you talking like there will be a coup and that this is some geopolitical quagmire...? Super overboard there at the start of your post. Steve wanting VIP open is peanuts to us and certainly not as dramatic as needing to remove anyone from staff.

Secondly, basically no to the idea. We are not going to allow paid access to any sort of forum management. We run PC just fine off of merit and contribution, not who can donate money to us or get access to the "Congress".

Remember, hstaff still has the power to either deny or accept a person if they are allowed access into VIP 2.0. If you think a person only donated to the forums just so they can get access to the "congress" forum, you can simply deny them. Also, like I said awhile ago, I personally thought supportership could be one of the other requirements, because it could be indicative of being an active member, but if you think that it's not, I'm all ears on other suggestions and improvements on what you consider to be an active member of the community.

I do hope you three could reply to my post and give your insights though, or any suggestion that you think could improve upon the original proposal. I do understand the skepticism from you, and I respect that. I just hope you could see the positives that may potentially bring upon with this suggestion.

 

[Nah]

I really don't see what would have to be discussed in VIP that couldn't be discussed in City Hall.

Also Alex started this thread to discuss reasons to keep/not keep the VIP Forest, yes?

 

[Alex]

I don't think closing the VIP forum benefits PC in any way. People are close to their money. Yes, there will be people that donate out of the goodness of their heart, but not everyone will. Assuming people will donate on that premise alone is naive. Inactive or not, a VIP forum is just another reason why someone might want to donate. I get why it's here despite its inactivity. I see nothing wrong with offering as much as possible to people who are kind enough to even consider giving their cash to PC. They're helping keep the site up and running, which indirectly benefits every user.

Closing this forum will accomplish nothing. All I read here is wasted breath about how it's inactive and how that's somehow hurting PC. Instead of closing it, you should accept its existence as a perk of donation, and post here every once in a while. This place, as far as I'm concerned, is Treehouse Exclusive. Treat it that way. That's all you can do. Even if it's a DCC that has one post per day, it's something.

I completely understand why Steve wants to keep this place. This is not a hill worth dying on. Instead of closing it - and giving donors one less reason to donate - give it a purpose and post here.

 

[Her]

the joke is thinking people consider the vip forum in any way when donating

 

[Nina]

but if you are still second guessing, or your regulars' opinions aren't enough, you could ask it here, to the people who have access on the forum for advice and opinions, because most likely, they're going to reply, because they volunteered to join and help.

It may sound arrogant, but there's not a time at which I really "second guess" in a way that would require an entirely separate discussion. If my regular's opinion are not enough, other staff opinion should be more than enough. There's a very very large amount of us now, with different things in mind, and former A&D or creative staff as well. I have a wealth of resources I would need to get through before I needed a second or third opinion. The reason this would not be useful as well, is the reason moderators exist.
We exist to make decisions about our sections. It's good to get input, but if you're putting it to the crowd with every idea you have, then it's a little pointless to have a specific mod. This echoes Angie's point said elsewhere. If we want to curate a group of members who seem to have contributed enough, have insightful comments, and seem willing to help the community, at that point they already are or are probably are already being considered for a moderator position. Supportership just really doesn't denote any specific characteristics about people in terms of decision making.
They could be really dedicated to PC, or they just might have a loose wallet, but maybe they also have a loose wallet but do LIKE the community, but have counteractive ideas? The time it takes to vet all of these characteristic and observe is the time and effort put in to assigning another mod, and it would be another mod-like who has no section attached and no responsibilities. Essentially, if PC had room for acknowledged mini-staff, I'm sure it would have already been put forward by now.

 

[Hermione Granger]

I say I see no reason to close this section just because it is not as active as other area does not mean that every supporter doesn't like this section.

 

[Ho-Oh]

Just ideas of stuff you can do here?

- Exclusive Pokemon Giveaways and Competitions

- Amazon Wishlists Contests (people can link 'em but as shipping is private/hidden/unrelated to PC so not even the gifter can see that should be ok? - check out r/random_acts_of_amazon for example)

- The topics that failed in Frontier can be here - or ones that weren't considered (likee pets - could be done here etc)

- Secret Santas all year around!

- Mini Get-Togethers (Kip and I's egg swap thing once a month would be cool here too to get good stuff on your games)

Like don't worry about stuff, if the people wanting it to stay want something to do - here's some things they can do and people would actively wanna be part of etc

 

[gimmepie]

Personally, I see no good reason to keep this forum alive. Yes it's a perk for donors but it's kind of a crappy perk really considering it is literally the single deadest place on PC. If this was some sort of thriving discussion hub or something, fine, but that is not the case. I think that there's probably better ways we could provide incentive to donate. This being said, there's no real harm in leaving it open either and if Steve adamantly wants it open it's ultimately his decision. If you want a private discussion place, I think a Discord Channel/Server would definitely be more appropriate.

Whatever happens though, the Scrapbox in its current state needs to remain. I think it is an excellent perk as is and it doesn't need changing whatsoever.

In response to the suggestion of a "staff and me" section, we already have one of those. It's called City Hall and its entire purpose is for users to give us suggestions and feedback and to ask questions. We don't need another one any more than we need a second Treehouse with less people in it. If you're really too embarrassed to make a suggestion publicly, all members of staff are available via PM anyway and can take your suggestions to the staff sections themselves if you message them.

 

[Palamon]

Imo, I see no reason to get rid of this forum. Just because it's not niche for one person, doesn't mean it can't be for another.

(Also, I remember wanting in on the vip forum when I was tier 2, so it's not the same for everyone, you know.)

 

[gimmepie]

Care to elaborate on your thoughts and expand on why you think this section is a "piece of shit" as you put it? Kinda a harsh term with little explanation but I'm sure given more explanation I could find points to agree on! This is a discussion after all, not an insult match.

I don't speak for Sun or anything, but I got the feeling that he was talking about lack of interest/activity.

 

[Taemin]

I donated on another account almost specifically to have access to this place, because I do like posting in the chat thread when I'm around, and in some other threads. Thoooough, if it shuts down it would kinda force me to venture more into other chat threads and places. Lmfao

They've been trying to do something with this place for years, and it hasn't happened yet. It's kind of up to us to make it what we wanna make it, and that's also been a battle for some years.

Since this thread exists, this is kind of the last effort to really overhaul this place, if anyone really cares to keep it up. If you do, then make some content in here that you'd wanna see?On the flip side, some of what's posted here could be posted in other areas too, and would get more responses.