[Criticism] - Seriously now. >:[

[.Seth]

Read this first!

I'd like to post my opinions on this day in ROM Hacking. Before you even try me, I'd like to say this:
"Read my whole post first. Try to understand and not misinterpret what I'm saying. Then, and only then, may you post."
Otherwise, I'll get Cirno on you!
Rule-like intro aside..

People, just shut up and think.

Before all you n00bs that think you're the best of the best (worst :P) post flaming me for this, hold your fingers under your butt, and think about what I'm saying.

Also, I'm not saying anything about anyone in particular. So don't start flaming my head off saying "I'm not lazy!" or "I think before I post!" Just because you do or don't something, doesn't mean everyone else does or doesn't.

Please, think before you post! Think about it. When you look at a thread for someone's hack, look at everything they posted. Don't just make an assumption based on the screen shots or the story. Usually, if you don't read it all ("tl;dr,"[too lazy; didn't read, for those who don't know what tl;dr means.] is not an excuse.), you'll miss something important. Like a big sentence in the story that helps you understand the screen shots, or maybe you'll think they forgot to credit someone when they did, in their credits section. Also, don't insult someone because of something they did to their hack that you didn't like. If it's obvious, like a tile error, they'll realize it and fix it. But don't go saying "d00d, u mad a tile erur n dis mapz, fix it u idiot." If you have a suggestion to make, post politely saying you found an error. But, if it's something they put a lot of time and effort into (like the hack itself) don't go bashing it!

Another thing, if you think you're just the absolute best at something, don't go posting a damn tutorial about it! Most likely there are other tutorials about the same subject you're planning to post a tutorial about. If it's a lot more descriptive or better than the others, then go ahead and post it! But, don't post stupid tutorials that teach what other tutorials teach. You're making copies of other tutorials that way, and, who's to say you didn't just copy and paste it?

Documents and Tutorials

Mainly to the n00bs, but anyone could take this advice.

"So...can you script for me?"
"I really need someone to help me insert these tiles! Plz can you help me??? :("
"Hey! I really could use someone like you to map for me! Will you do it!??? :DDDDD"

It really pains me to see real members bother other members about helping them out. If you can't find help for your hack, don't bother other people to help you! I cannot stress that enough! I'd like to introduce you to the "Documents and Tutorials" section of PokeCommunity. This section is here for your convenience of learning how to do stuff yourself. As in, you don't have to annoy the living hell out of other members. :D

Opinions, Suggestions, and Criticism

This is one of the bigger things. Something that I want EVERYBODY to read.

So you see a hack in the scrapbox, or maybe in Progressing Hacks, but it doesn't look very well made. So you decide to post, and you think about something, "Do I want to criticize this guy and hope he'll take it well, or just post saying 'Good job man! The maps look great. I can't wait to play this!'?"

And usually, people just do the latter. Because they. Are. Lazy. That's right. You heard me. They don't want to worry about "I hope the mods don't warn me!" or "Will he think I'm flaming him?".

This is something you should never do. You should never think about whether he'll think you're flaming him. If he can't take criticism, then he shouldn't even be hacking. You have a right to your opinion, and you should utilize that right. It's ok if you post saying "I don't think the tiles look very well." or "There's a tile error in this map.", or even "I think you should use blue instead of purple for the titlescreen.".

That's your opinion.

But, like I said earlier, do not post saying "this map sux! ur a terrible haxzor." That's flaming. All the statements in the paragraph before this one are called "suggestions" and "criticism". Also, if someone posts their opinion or criticism, don't treat it as flaming. They merely made a slight suggestion that is designed and said that way in order to help you make a better hack.

Acceptance - It's WAY too low.

Again, I want everyone to read this!

The overall acceptance level of hacks these days is just, despicable. If you want your hack accepted as something good, that's perfectly fine. It's not you who's the problem. The problem is these stupid, easily-impressed newbies. For clarification, a "newbie" is someone who is not an easily-angered-if-they-don't-win-at-something n00b. Newbies are just someone who's wanting to try something new. That's great, until they start to think that anything above their level is "the best damn thing ever". Just because you're new to this, doesn't mean you have to be so easily impressed. I want..no I demand that you set some standards for what you think should be deemed "good".

Some simple things could be:
- No tile errors in maps.
- Little to no major scripting errors.
- Little to no palette errors.

I know those are actually some high standards, but we, the members of this forum, need something to set the stage, raise the bar, and overall, separate the crap, from the actually "good" hacks.

One last thing

I really would like to thank everyone for reading this and hopefully taking what I wrote into consideration. But, there's one more thing I'd like to say.

I want everyone, to take this, and show everybody. ROM Hacking can't make anything of a recovery if nobody knows about stuff like this, can they?

 

[Mana1]

I find myself agreeing with pretty much all your points. Very few people give criticism from the threads I see, in particular the Map Rating thread and in the Team subforum.

In the Maps threads people tend to go with a friendly high score without taking into account the tiling errors, or the overall map sometimes. Even worse when they people know each other and can't point out what is wrong with the maps - If nobody says whats wrong then its pretty hard to improve no?

In the teams thread I have seen many rejections (including my own every now and then) where the owner of the thread simply goes 'You are rejected sorry', without any explanation. As with the above point, people can't learn if you aren't honest with them! If you say what they are doing isn't good enough then tell them what they could improve.

And I'm tired of "Look at ____ Tutorial" or "Look at ____'s Style", that isn't helping anyone either (I see the former comment even when the tutorial would not help at all - often the Natural Mapping tutorial).

I get what you are saying about how people should say what could be improved without worrying what the other person may think, as long as its helpful. However just the other day I saw someone point out an error and offer their assistance to help and then be attacked about how they were wrong - about something as simple as grammar when things ARE right or wrong. It really annoys me when people behave like this and reject people who know what they are saying when it could improve their hack further.

 

[Thrace]

Do you honestly think that the people that do the things you've described will bother to read this? People that post things like "can u help me with my hack" in other people's hack threads don't even bother to read the official community rules. What makes you think that they'll bother to read a pretentious, unofficial thread on common sense etiquette written by someone who isn't even part of the staff that run this forum?

What right do you have to tell people how they should behave anyway? This is offensive to every member at PC and I'm suprised the thread was accepted.

 

[Ray Maverick]

I agree with this -a lot and i admit that i was a n00b two or three months ago,but with this thread,i completly understand its not good to bother others,or make low quality hacks,etc
But i find it weird you want others to act like you or i want,and like Thrace said,i don't think "newbies" or "n00bs" will bother reading this,or stop doing annoying things. :/

Also,it is offensive for others. In that case,add a "no offense" and you're ok xD

 

[gummybarz]

I agree with you, This is what i think..

I think, when a NooB, posts a thread, he posts his or hers thoughts in there head right now. When i started makeing hacks, i sat down a wrote the story out, i then read some tut's and improved. I personally hate hacks in the scrap box that have no screen shots at all. It's not showing any of your progress on your hack at all. I posted on many NooB threads, trying to give them some advice. Then the message me saying, "OMG your the best hacker in the world, will you pleaseeee script for me" And that makes me mad. Many noob hackers i've seen, want everyone to do the work for them and that's what i hate the most...

 

[Zeikku™]

I agree hands down. People looking to hack/ develop games should learn to do things themselves, just makes the community seem trashy when people are posting comments without reading important bits of information.

 

[Vrai]

Do you honestly think that the people that do the things you've described will bother to read this? People that post things like "can u help me with my hack" in other people's hack threads don't even bother to read the official community rules. What makes you think that they'll bother to read a pretentious, unofficial thread on common sense etiquette written by someone who isn't even part of the staff that run this forum?

What right do you have to tell people how they should behave anyway? This is offensive to every member at PC and I'm surprised the thread was accepted.

No, a vast majority of them probably won't sit here and read this thread, as much as we'd like them to. Still, the ones that end up reading this are probably the ones that would actually listen, and try to change their habits. I mean, honestly, no one's really going to expect the nine-year-old kid that's just destroying their ROM over in the corner to come read this. But, the guy who's trying to hack well and is inadvertently (I can't remember how to spell that xD) doing these things, maybe it'll help.

As far as I can tell, Seth is sort of defining how they should behave aside from the acceptance section :<, you know? Like, say you and your friend get invited to a fancy dinner. You both act very mature during the party, but when you get to the meal, your friend just starts shoveling the food into his mouth using his hands. What would you do? Just let him sit there and eat like a freak until he gets kicked out of the party? Or would you intervene, and tell him to knock it off before they kick him out? But hey, wait. What if the guy doesn't know any better? Why don't we tell him how he should eat properly? If we don't, he certainly won't get any better. To make people understand and improve, we've got to tell them what they're doing wrong, you see? I don't think Seth is doing anything other than that.

I don't really see how this is offensive to every member of PC, though. >:

---

A lot of this can be broken down into the same general ideas, though. Like, don't be offensive, but constructive. If you think a hack really sucks, tell them why, and possibly how they can improve. Also, the people that made the tutorials made them for the convenience of telling you guys how they did it, so that you can learn. Asking those people to do things for you certainly won't get you anywhere. Also, be ready to take that criticism. People have different ways of saying it, too; some people try to ease you into it, telling you the good things first, and some just say it straight. We've got to learn the difference between good criticism and flaming.

Well, that's just my take on a couple of points, although I agree with pretty much everything in this.

I'm not sure if I actually said anything really different from Seth in that last paragraph, so don't hold me to that. xD

 

[HackMew]

Before all you n00bs that think you're the best of the best (worst :P) [...]

Anyone that think he/she's the best should probably get a new brain. There's always someone which is better than us and there's always someone who has worser skills that us. Heck, there are millions of people.

Please, think before you post! Think about it. When you look at a thread for someone's hack, look at everything they posted. Don't just make an assumption based on the screen shots or the story. Usually, if you don't read it all ("tl;dr,"[too lazy; didn't read, for those who don't know what tl;dr means.] is not an excuse.), you'll miss something important. Like a big sentence in the story that helps you understand the screen shots, or maybe you'll think they forgot to credit someone when they did, in their credits section. Also, don't insult someone because of something they did to their hack that you didn't like. If it's obvious, like a tile error, they'll realize it and fix it. But don't go saying "d00d, u mad a tile erur n dis mapz, fix it u idiot." If you have a suggestion to make, post politely saying you found an error. But, if it's something they put a lot of time and effort into (like the hack itself) don't go bashing it!

Honestly... only a few people will read this. And no matter how many, most of the times people will tend to:

• don't read anything
• spam to get 15 posts
• post generic comments

Insulting is against rules, such unknown things. And it's against common sense as well.

Another thing, if you think you're just the absolute best at something, don't go posting a damn tutorial about it! Most likely there are other tutorials about the same subject you're planning to post a tutorial about. If it's a lot more descriptive or better than the others, then go ahead and post it! But, don't post stupid tutorials that teach what other tutorials teach. You're making copies of other tutorials that way, and, who's to say you didn't just copy and paste it?

Funnily enough, you made an XSE tutorial when there were others already. How can you explain that? BTW, it's still messed up right now.

"So...can you script for me?"
"I really need someone to help me insert these tiles! Plz can you help me??? :("
"Hey! I really could use someone like you to map for me! Will you do it!??? :DDDDD"

It really pains me to see real members bother other members about helping them out. If you can't find help for your hack, don't bother other people to help you! I cannot stress that enough! I'd like to introduce you to the "Documents and Tutorials" section of PokeCommunity. This section is here for your convenience of learning how to do stuff yourself. As in, you don't have to annoy the living hell out of other members. :D

You know... asking someone to do the work for you is much easier and faster than reading a tutorial and trying yourself. Talk about laziness.

So you see a hack in the scrapbox, or maybe in Progressing Hacks, but it doesn't look very well made. So you decide to post, and you think about something, "Do I want to criticize this guy and hope he'll take it well, or just post saying 'Good job man! The maps look great. I can't wait to play this!'?"

That's called spam where I live.

And usually, people just do the latter. Because they. Are. Lazy. That's right. You heard me. They don't want to worry about "I hope the mods don't warn me!" or "Will he think I'm flaming him?".

Yeah, but you can't do anything about it.

This is something you should never do. You should never think about whether he'll think you're flaming him. If he can't take criticism, then he shouldn't even be hacking. You have a right to your opinion, and you should utilize that right. It's ok if you post saying "I don't think the tiles look very well." or "There's a tile error in this map.", or even "I think you should use blue instead of purple for the titlescreen."

Let's not forget there are some girls too :P
I agree that if you can't take criticism, then you shouldn't be hacking at all.

But, like I said earlier, do not post saying "this map sux! ur a terrible haxzor." That's flaming. All the statements in the paragraph before this one are called "suggestions" and "criticism". Also, if someone posts their opinion or criticism, don't treat it as flaming. They merely made a slight suggestion that is designed and said that way in order to help you make a better hack.

Yeah, and being flaming is against rules. Needless to say you should talk in proper English (depending on your limits) so anyone can understand you.

The overall acceptance level of hacks these days is just, despicable. If you want your hack accepted as something good, that's perfectly fine. It's not you who's the problem. The problem is these stupid, easily-impressed newbies. For clarification, a "newbie" is someone who is not an easily-angered-if-they-don't-win-at-something n00b. Newbies are just someone who's wanting to try something new. That's great, until they start to think that anything above their level is "the best damn thing ever". Just because you're new to this, doesn't mean you have to be so easily impressed. I want..no I demand that you set some standards for what you think should be deemed "good".

You definition of newbie is wrong. That's more like a n00b, which it's just its spregiative form.

new⋅bie
-noun
newcomer, novice: any new participant in some activity

Anyway, you can't force people to your standards. Everyone has his/her point of views.

Some simple things could be:
- No tile errors in maps.
- Little to no major scripting errors.
- Little to no palette errors.

I know those are actually some high standards, but we, the members of this forum, need something to set the stage, raise the bar, and overall, separate the crap, from the actually "good" hacks.

That's a nice dream, but I doubt it will turn into reality someday.

 

[Conan Edogawa]

I agree with most of what you said. I'm not going to run through the entire post like HackMew because they pointed out the flaws I saw. But something such as this was definitely needed and hopefully people(including me to a degree) will learn from it.

 

[Tyrantrum]

Very well done, Seth. :)
But, as said above, no n00b is going to read this.
They're all just going to do what HackMew said: Spam to get 15 posts; "im sry but im tring 2 gt 15 posts"


And that "can you script for me?" part, I get a lot of that on YouTube.
But, still, you did great on this Seth. I do hope at least some newbies will actually take the time to read this and understand.

 

[Chibi Robo]

This was a great Raiku-San

(Dont know why DJG hasn't sticked this yet)
Really nice I agreed with everything you wrote really
Most new hackers should read this before posting one of those SPAM threads like
"I don't Know how to script TEACH ME ZEL!!!"
very nicley done~

 

[Abnegation]

Kudos to you for writing this out!
I agree entirely but if only other people would too. I honestly think there should be something like this in the Rom Hacking section that you must read and learn before making a hck. People are just so inconciderate these days in the section. New hackers coming on the scene and flaming any critisism thrown their way instead of embracing it and improving on it. At the end of the day a rom hack is for the people by the people. We're in a community here. Let's try and act like one.

 

[myfavouriteax]

hahaha, I like how we're all criticizing Raikou-san for posting this.

 

[ckret2]

Nice ideals, though not likely to be met in the near future, most likely. I agree that all those things would be nice... if they'd all happen.

For myself, I've got a few coping mechanisms for the n00bs, most of which consist of glazing my eyes and skimming past their comments. It's a lot easier to skip past them than it is to hang around, read the comments, and get exasperated. They're going to be there no matter what, so I try not to get my blood pressure raised over it.

The best explanation here is Sturgeon's Law, I think. It applies quite well to the comments that are left in the forum, to the skill levels of the people that leave comments, and even to the hack ideas left in the Scrapbox. :P

In regards to the "newbie vs. n00b" deal with the definitions, I mainly agree with your distinction. I've seen it explained once as a newbie is someone who's new to an activity and is ignorant because of their newness; a n00b is someone who acts as ignorant as a newbie no matter how long they've been around, and who prefers to remain igorant than to take the effort necessary to become more knowledgeable about the activity. Though the Internet usage of the words is still most definitely slang, so the definitions are rather flexible, I'd expect.

Let's not forget there are some girls too :P

An oft-forgotten minority. XD I appreciate the mention.

 

[Crimson Stardust]

The ones acting this way will not be possibly reading all this[maybe i am wrong]...first thing,they will see the name of the topic,and if it seems interesting and can help out in their hack,they will check it out.Then they read the first paragraph or the first few lines and lets take this thread as an example,raikou-san talked about the behavior of the members on pc,will it help them on their hack???NO..so they will just go to another thread..
They mostly will go to the progressing hacks,Document & Tutorials or the hackshowcase and see if anyone have the skills they want for their hack...
I cannot say this for sure as i myself act like this whe i was here in the beggining but not now but if i really need one...

I know you said we need to do everything all by ourselves but sometimes it is just cannot be done..some people have some skills but cannot do other skills like scripting...

This is just my opinion on this..XD

Your pc buddy,
ageangel

 

[Thrace]

Don't take this as a personal attack people. I just happened to see this thread just before I went to sleep yesterday and it just reminded me of the pattern of elitism that is really killing these forums. Do you see these kinds of threads elsewhere on PC? Maybe in game development. But elsewhere no one else thinks they're better than anyone else. I'm only replying to defend my views.

No, a vast majority of them probably won't sit here and read this thread, as much as we'd like them to. Still, the ones that end up reading this are probably the ones that would actually listen, and try to change their habits. I mean, honestly, no one's really going to expect the nine-year-old kid that's just destroying their ROM over in the corner to come read this. But, the guy who's trying to hack well and is inadvertently (I can't remember how to spell that xD) doing these things, maybe it'll help.

Why would they read this if they don't even read the rules?

As far as I can tell, Seth is sort of defining how they should behave aside from the acceptance section :<, you know?

I agree but what gives him the right to do that?

Like, say you and your friend get invited to a fancy dinner. You both act very mature during the party, but when you get to the meal, your friend just starts shoveling the food into his mouth using his hands. What would you do? Just let him sit there and eat like a freak until he gets kicked out of the party? Or would you intervene, and tell him to knock it off before they kick him out? But hey, wait. What if the guy doesn't know any better? Why don't we tell him how he should eat properly? If we don't, he certainly won't get any better. To make people understand and improve, we've got to tell them what they're doing wrong, you see? I don't think Seth is doing anything other than that.

Your analogy doesn't relate. This is a community. What this is, is a random person standing up with a microphone in the town square preaching to people how they should live their lives.

I don't really see how this is offensive to every member of PC, though. >:

Because he's telling people how they should behave when he has no authority.

 

[.Seth]

Thrace, I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to start an argument, but I'd like to know what gave Atlus the right to post his thread. Why aren't you wondering about that?

I appreciate all the comments you guys have made. Also, just because I'm trying to help doesn't mean I have to be a staff member, or even a member with 10,000 posts or anything. Everyday people/members can make a difference too, you know.

It makes no difference whatsoever.

 

[Vrai]

Your analogy doesn't relate. This is a community. What this is, is a random person standing up with a microphone in the town square preaching to people how they should live their lives.

Hmm.. meh. There's not really any point in pursuing an argument here, so I won't do it. It's not like there was really much else to say after that, anyways. ;D

Looking over what everyone else says, it seems to me that the best option here is what ckret2 said: shut up and ignore it. If we have to, we can tell off those annoying people who do these things repeatedly. It's not really going to work if we sit here and try to make them do things our way, because they're probably not going to care. :/

After taking some time and reading through this again, Seth, I think everyone would have responded much better if it were more.. uhh, politely worded? There's a sort of commanding tone to your voice here, that makes it sound, as Thrace said,

he's telling people how they should behave when he has no authority.

I dunno, but I think I'd reword it a bit. You know, make it less demanding, and more like simply stating your opinion. :/

 

[Sarcastic Prince]

Hmm... this thread sounds interesting.
It should actually be stickied.

 

[Disturbed]

I didn't bother reading this. Where do I sign?

Try a less offensive approach. kthxbai