Do you dislike the HM system?

[Lucifer]

I'm actually surprised no one is actually questoning WHY the HM system is in place the way it is. There's a very specific, game breaking reason why they force you to not delete HMs and thats' because there are HM moves that can be learned by some pokemon via level up OR you can transfer pokemon who know certain HM moves:

so say you get to the point where you get the appropriate badge to use a move in the overworld map (let's take cut for example) you have a pokemon from an old game that knows Cut (and since people will fixate on Cut specifically, you can also subsitute ANY Hm for this same scenario) just for the heck of it, you start cutting away to get certain items, you level up, learn a better move and delete Cut and then oh look! You're late for school or work, you save and quit, come back later and start your game up again and oh no! Once you start your game up again all the trees have respawned and since you deleted Cut, you can't get past them because even though you got the badge, yo didn't go to Cutter's House first so now you can't teach anything in your party Cut (or whatever other HM move got you stuck somewhere) and no you need to reset your game and lose the 2, 20 or 200 hours you put into it for a simple mistake that can happen to anyone. THIS is the reason the HM system is in place. in the original Hoenn games if you were on Dewford and had a pokemon with Surf in your PC the game would prevent you from releasing that pokemon from your PC if it was the last one in your PC that knew Surf, even if you had the HM in your items pocket because if you lost all the pokemon that knew Surf in Dewford, you were trapped and could not get off. It's actually an extremely well thought out system.

The same thing happens when you encounter Latias/Latios and you have a full party. If you send the pokemon back to the PC that has Surf, you're now stuck in the other side of Hoenn until you get all the way up to the weather institute and get access to a PC again.

I would MUCH rather be inconvenience by having to find someone to delete the move than not pay attention briefly and lose a move that makes me have to completely restart my game all over from the beginning. For every 1 person complaining about having to delete the move, I can guarantee there would be 1000 complaining if such a game breaking system was allowed to be in the games because LOTS of people (particularly young kids) could quite easily make these various mistakes.

I'm sorry this doesn't make sense to me, in fact I'm not even sure I follow.
So in this hypothetical scenario, you went the entire game without receiving the Cut HM from the Cutter but instead traded a pokemon with the move to your game. Then you deleted it after a use and saved. I fail to see the irreversible dire mistake here.
1.) Why would anyone NOT stop by the Cutter's house for the HM even if they were trading over a pokemon that already knew it. You can actually do it BEFORE receiving the Stone Badge and its not a tedious effort.
2.) If the move was removed from the traded Pokemon why can't this hypothetical player just return to Rustburo and obtain the HM or does the Cutter stop giving it out at some point?

There is also another flaw with this scenario. Unlike in Kanto and Sinnoh which both have at least one required area/route blocked off by a tree every single area in Hoenn that is reached by cutting is optional. One can complete the games without using cut a single time.

 

[Megan]

The same thing happens when you encounter Latias/Latios and you have a full party. If you send the pokemon back to the PC that has Surf, you're now stuck in the other side of Hoenn until you get all the way up to the weather institute and get access to a PC again.

Just FYI Lati@s can learn Surf, so you're not stuck in this case.

The HM system, while being optimal in its own right, is unbalanced in regards to the newer games. Just keeping them to prevent Gamebreakers isn't good Game Design, it's just lazyness on the developers side. You know "never touch a running system" kinda similar to people who still believe Windows XP is the best OS ever and who are still using it (just exchange Windows XP with Windows 95 for that matter).

 

[Howmander]

I'm sorry this doesn't make sense to me, in fact I'm not even sure I follow.
So in this hypothetical scenario, you went the entire game without receiving the Cut HM from the Cutter but instead traded a pokemon with the move to your game. Then you deleted it after a use and saved. I fail to see the irreversible dire mistake here.
1.) Why would anyone NOT stop by the Cutter's house for the HM even if they were trading over a pokemon that already knew it. You can actually do it BEFORE receiving the Stone Badge and its not a tedious effort.
2.) If the move was removed from the traded Pokemon why can't this hypothetical player just return to Rustburo and obtain the HM or does the Cutter stop giving it out at some point?

There is also another flaw with this scenario. Unlike in Kanto and Sinnoh which both have at least one required area/route blocked off by a tree every single area in Hoenn that is reached by cutting is optional. One can complete the games without using cut a single time.

See? I KNEW people were going to fixate on JUST cut and refuse to read the rest! ;-) Just because you refuse to aknowledge that something can happen doesn't mean it can't happen. You forget that this game is geared to 6 year olds to be able to play, is it really THAT unlikely that people (particularly kids) are just going to rush int o Rustboro and go to the gym? Cutters house is actually incredibly easy to miss, especially if you're just running around to battle. Here's some picture examples (and if you STILL don't understand what I'm saying, I'll know you're being deliberately difficult!):

So I rushed through the game, kinda forgot all about Cutter's house and had no need to look for him because I had a throw away pokemon that already knew Cut from Pokebank. Went through the whole game using it to get through bushes and such so I never needed to go looking for the Cut HM. Got through this bush on route 120, it had 3 blisseys and I leveled up all my pokemon and the one pokemon I had that happened to know Cut could learn a WAY better move so without thinking I deleted Cut for the better move because everything else it had were good moves, I save as lots of people do after secret bas battles, I leave the secret base and OH LOOK, the bush is back. and oh no! I deleted Cut and saved because I didn't think about that bush. How do I get out of this? Oh yeah, I can't. Time to reset the game and start all over again

same deal as before, I have an old pokemon from pokebank or wonder trade that just happens to have strength, i go into the secret base in Fiery Path, same deal as before, I battle the secret base leader in here, level up, delete the crappy Strength for something WAy better, save after my battle because I'm almost dead and have no healing items or repels and I am just going to save every few steps in case I run into some wild encounter I can't run away from and it kills me and OH LOOK, I didn't know the big stone was going to go back to where it was when I first came into the area and now I can't leave. time to reset my game and start all over.

Let's put the ego aside, just becaues YOU don't play the game without exploring everywhere doesn't mean the other 7 BILLION people on this earth play the game exactly the same way. It's a game geared toward children and it therefore needs to be child proof. Are you HONESTLY telling me that you would rather risk having to restart the game all over again because of a game breaking oversight like this just to avoid a few MINUTES of your time to go to a town to get a mvoe deleted? Really? REALLY? Come on! You complain about those few minutes to go to the move deleted, I KNOW you would be with the pitchforks and class action lawsuits against nintendo and game freak if they let something like this happen. Look at the Lumiose City glitch. Who on earth would save in those 4 specific spots just out in the middle of the city I never did, so therefore no one else must have either. Except that, oh wait, a LOT of people saved in those spots and just like those people, a lot of people could accidentally overlook certain HM locations (why do you think there's lists of their locations? Because OBVIOUSLY you can get through the game without finding at least some of them) and people accidentally overwrite moves they don't think they'd need until they get stuck.

 

[DyingWillFlareon]

I'm kinda torn.
It's a bit like tradition to keep HMs around, aand certainly older fans would whine and conplain that newer players didn't need Cut or Strength going through their games. Plus, the mechanica aren't all that bad. I mean if you use Surf and delete Surf while Surfing(or like Howmander said in the Cut and Strength examples) then you're stuck.
But on the other hand I hate HMs. And iirc in Yellow and all the other Gen I games, there was data for a Surfboard, and in Toxic Purple(a very uncompleted Team Rocket hack) there was a Machete for trees. Maybe GF could go down this new route with using items, of course with mini missions and searching for them left in the game still. I would really like to see this implemented in Gen VII if possible over the old HM system. But HMs could still be normal moves or even TMs, I wouldn't want to see them disappear forever.....

TL;DR- I hate HMs even though iconic to players, let's use new items instead.

 

[Ephraim225]

Just skimmed this thread. HMs were fine back in the Metal gen but as it is nowadays I have many questions:

- Why can't HM moves be deleted (outside the Move Deleter)
- Why are they mandatory in Gen 6 when they were not in Gen 5
- Why do they still waste a move slot
- Why are HM slaves heavily encouraged, still
- Why aren't all the HM moves useful in some manner considering the above

Really, this is the year 201X, we ought to have either fixed the above or moved away from HMs entirely somehow.

 

[Flowey]

If at least they were removable normally, or there were more places to remove them... I'd actually like them then.

 

[Feroniamon]

Actually, I'm torn about the HMs. On the one side I can understand they are "terrain abilities", which are needed for plot-relevant or optional areas. The other side however, HMs have become annoying since the TMs are pseudo-HMs now (can be used many times instead one-time) and even I like Surf or Strength, I feel sorry for my Pokémon wasting move slots and becoming HM slaves. Because of this, I wish the HMs to be removed in future generations (but maintaining the attacks). They are great in the first two generations, but are becoming annoying on the third onward.

A alternate for HMs in future generations may be some sort of "passive abilities" or "terrain abilities", which every Pokémon would have from the beginning. It would be a fixed array of terrain abilities (up to 4, which could be the maximum) and the only way to change it are evolution. A simple example would be: a Magikarp can't have any terrain ability, but a Gyarados would have Surf and Waterfall. It could maybe fix the problem with the HMs and move slots: The Pokémon has one move slot more for a new attack and has a secondary array which includes their terrain abilities. Cut would be reserved for Pokémon with leaves and blades, Fly for strong flying Pokémon (why would I use a Pidgey to Fly? A Pidgeot makes more sense), Flash for Pokémon which can glow etc.

My idea for a replacement for HMs uses my idea for using the Pokémons natural ability, but not though HMs.

But I do think for the sake of mixing things up a bit Gamefreak could come up with other ways to restrict progression at certain points without the need to stick to the overly rigid HM system.

I wish they would, but now I have lost hope already.

 

[Pendraflare]

Spoiler:

I was was thinking... If the character needs to use something as a Machete to cut trees, They don't need to be older?.

...Pokémon logic, my friends. Although I could see why you couldn't burn the tree down with a Fire-type attack, because that could cause a forest fire or something.

 

[morrison]

not per se, just the number and flexibilty

 

[Twilight-kun]

BEHOLD, THE MIGHTY KYOGRE, THE BEING THAT CREATED THE OCEANS, TERRORIZED THE PEOPLE OF OLD AND FEUDED WITH GROUDON BEFORE GOING TO SLEEP

It's now my personal Surf/Dive/Waterfall slave, as is my Ludicolo when I actually need to be able to dive properly...

HMs would be much better if you could forget them like TMs

Also, your fire-breathing, razor-taloned flying lizard cannot harm this "tree" without the right moves

That's impeccable logic, really

But, as a whole, I don't mind the system that much

My Hariyama abuses Rock Smash's defense-lowering ability and strikes hard with Strength
Alas, it's useless against Ghosts

 

[Hiatus]

I don't outright dislike their HM system, but it does have certain qualities that bother me.

One would be how difficult it could be every now and again to remove hidden moves from Pokémon. Of course, we could instantly fly to a Move Deleter any time we choose, but things do seem to wind up to become sort of a hassle when we don't have anything on your party to fly us anywhere. We might be able to grab them from our PC box if we have any, but for a simple task like this, it does consume a good portion of time. I've had this experience a couple of times before, and they were kind of annoying, all-in-all.

If I were to make changes, what I would consider doing is perhaps add two to three extra slots to each and every Pokémon. Moves that are placed in these spots, whether they be TM or HM, could only be worked outside of battle, while the four primary slots would function globally. In general, I believe this could reduce a lot of work from the kind of situations I've been mentioning.

 

[Zehn]

Personally I think the Hm mechanics. They were designed during gen 1 when the games were not planned to get this competitive. Gen 1 you were excepted to catch a Pokemon at the start and then ditch it when a more powerful ones came available. But instead people got emotionally attached to the pixelated pets. No one wanted to ditch there Pokemon. They wanted the best moves they could get. They wanted hydro pump not surf, seismic toss not cut. This caused HM slaves to be born. By the time of gold silver and crystal, game freak did not realise the need for competitive gameplay. They just made the hm system more likeable with prompts to use it. Then came ruby sapphire and emerald. Game freak had partially noticed the need for competitive gameplay, so they improved mechanics like hold items and EVs and IVs. Then came Fire red and Leaf Green, the Gen 1 remakes. Since Gen 1 was so based upon the Hms they could not remove it without ruining Kanto, so HMs remained still, to avoid ruining the region. Then came Diamond and Pearl. After the negative initial response to gen 3 and Ruby, sapphire and emerald, game freak where afraid to remove mechanics such as Hms and instead focused with competitive gameplay, such as the physical special split and wifi battle. By the time of the Gen 2 remakes, Johto suffered the same problems as Kanto, being too Hm orientated. Then came Gen 5, by this time the HM mechanics were so ingrained into the Pokemon game engine that it would have been ridiculous to remove it. Right? Then came gen 6 with X and Y. They made the mechanic so much more believable. But with hack people see the problems and fix it. If other people on the Pokemon over world can swim, why can't we? If there are space rockets, why are there no flash lights. If there are pick axes, why should we use are Pokemon? This topic also should include how do HMs (and Tms) work? I mean the icon is a CD. Do your Pokemon have a disk slot? And why do TMs break in older generation break? When at the same time HMs don't. Also another thing that comes to my mind is why can't you trade a Pokemon with a Hm as a learned move? I mean the moves are weak enough. Is it so people have to the the HMs, so they don't get stuck in a place where they cannot get out? Also there are systems in place so you cannot use a Hm move before you beat a gym. What is that about? Are the police going to arrest you for getting on top of your Pokemon and swimming? Also what is the point of the system, you cannot get the HMs before beating the gym in most games and you can't get a Pokemon with the moves? Is it so hacker cannot get to places they shouldn't early in the game? In every case the HMs just don't stand up to real life, and I know Pokemon isn't real life but it has physics and laws of nature so these things should have been better thought through.
The real question should be why don't game freak redo the system, why can't Pokemon learn more that moves. Arceses created the Pokemon world yet can only learn 4 moves, not very believable. And is the main character lazy or sometimes. Or do pokeballs just weigh a shit ton, since you can carry 6. Pokemon as a game could have been so much better, but we are still using mechanics from 20 years ago! this begs the question of why game freak haven't changed the mechanics of... Well everything. Is it too appeal to nostalgia or just plain laziness.

That's all I have to say...
I hope I went into enough detail !

 

[SnowpointQuincy]

HM's wouldn't be so bad if they didn't suck in battle. Make Cut act like Slash, Make Rock Climb a Rock Type attack.

Rock Climb and Waterfall could be 1 HM, because behind every Waterfall... is a Rock Wall.

Just make the HMs good in battle.

Or, Make a system where any water type Pokemon can "Surf" you across water automatically.

 

[TCB]

If ORAS showed me anything, is that I think it's time for the HM system to get a little change up. It's cool that now you can Fly to any route, location and city...but there's a Key Item that basically lets you soar over the ACTUAL region. I get that both systems have certain quirks to it, but that's something that I honestly want to see happen with normal Flying.

 

[mew_nani]

HMs... it's neat they have Pokemon moves that actually have effects on the overworld like Cut or Surf, but why can't they just be TM moves, and why for that matter are we just restricted to only a few moves that can take care of bushes or deep fog? Can't Ember or Flamethrower burn down a tree? Can't you clear out fog with any kind of move that causes air to move? Moves that carry the player around like Surf or Fly I can see, as it teaches the Pokemon to safely ferry you around, but why's it like that for the rest of the HM moves? Especially Rock Smash; any kind of fighting type move can take care of a little boulder.

I'd support either just requiring a Pokemon that can use a move to take care of the obstacle, or having HM items like a chainsaw or maybe something like the Surfboard in Pokemon Red and Blue. Even if a chainsaw is unsafe why is a flashlight out of bounds?

 

[CountessGardevoir]

Why can't they be deleted?
Why are they treated as moves?
Why are they needed so frequently?
Why do they need badges?!!

 

[TCB]

You still need badges to use them? I didn't notice.

Didn't B2W2 pretty much let you use the HMs as soon as you got them? Like they removed the old 'must have required badge' rule attached to them?

 

[mew_nani]

Why can't they be deleted?
Why are they treated as moves?
Why are they needed so frequently?
Why do they need badges?!!

The first one is supposedly to keep you from getting stuck, but it's not like it's Gen 1 and you can actually deposit HM machines. The second one I guess is to utilize the Pokemon you have in your party and add some kind of immersion effect... either that or apparently weed clippers and giant megaton hammers are illegal in the world of Pokemon. :P

The third one... it's rural? I guess? Surfing I can see but... And finally the fourth one I think is to keep inexperienced trainers without any badges from using the skill without authorization and possibly hurting themselves... or to keep you from accessing places too early in the game because lazy designers are lazy. :P

And as for you actually needing badges to use them I'm fairly certain you do. It may not be apparent because you get the HM after you get the gym badge and it's hard to trade Pokes with HM moves to others but I think you still need shiny pieces of metal to let your Pokemon cut down a bush or ferry you across water.

 

[PumpJack]

Is it just me that dislikes the whole HM system?.

Is Ice a good defensive type?


Nobody likes the HM system.

It's really a goddamned mystery why it's lasted this long. There are other and better ways to railroad the player's path.

 

[Meadow]

Everyone else here pretty much nailed why I detest the HM system.

Instead of wasting precious move slots on our Pokémon, HMs should just be replaced by Key Items... only then would I not mind if Game Freak slapped all sorts of restrictions on them.