Do you think that prostitution should be legalized?

[VulpixVixen007]

i have to say no to this topic. it's not right. it's like human abuse. i wouldn't want it legalized ever. if it does, then people really made a big mistake. no offense.

 

[Dawn]

>Talk about the horrors of human trafficking
>Say it should still be illegal because there's apparently not a huge difference between slaves and employees
>Women are significantly less likely to tell officials if they've been sexually assaulted, for fear of being put under arrest
>Streets will be cleaner

'Course you probably couldn't help making a straw man because--

I can't be bothered to read that much

...you tried summing up my argument without reading it. ;/

so I just want to know how keeping prostitution illegal will reduce trafficking. If you don't mind of course, friend ^^

I'm afraid I do mind. That looks like a red herring. (See: A diversion intended to distract attention from the main issue at hand)

So, Yellow, you're definitely down in the "trafficking is endemic to prostitution" column. I don't mean to single you out, but if you don't mind answering another question: do you think that there's any way - and feel free to think in terms of a best case scenario, such as all world human trafficking being eliminated - to restructure prostitution so that it isn't exploitative?

...

Well, yeah! It's not impossible. The problem is it's both extremely improbable and impractical. That is to say, both pretty unlikely to even work, and impossible to do remotely efficiently even then.

So yeah, if you want to make prostitution work, the first thing you need to do is give everyone their morals back. Let me be blunt and say that the so called war on slavery really didn't do anything to actually stop slavery. We've beaten the horse that is slavery theoretically to death and past that, and slavery is not dead. In fact it's alive and ridiculously powerful.

Besides the fact that we clearly have quite a market for slaves right now, there are other problems that would make it not work. (I'm going to stop using the word human trafficking, because it's very blatantly slavery and I wish to emphasize that.)

First of all, you're asking upstanding citizens to bend over backwards morally. Violence will happen, namely towards brothels. Whether you think that's right or wrong, it's something that needs to be thought about. Such a thing really puts a dampener on the whole "Legal is safer!" thing. When you go legal, suddenly your prostitution ring is a lot more transparent. People will mock, insult, and even attack. There will be disrespect, etcetera. Illegal prostitution rings are pretty heavy on secrecy, for obvious reasons. This will probably fuel illegal prostitution.

Second of all, STDs cannot be controlled by anyone but those that have them. All STD checks will do is put prostitutes out of a job when they get them. =| This will probably fuel illegal prostitution.

Now, looking back at these three big problems. (People want slaves. People will not take legalization without a fight. STDs cannot be controlled.) There's a consistent pattern here. All these problems would not exist if people had better morals. If people had better morals, they wouldn't want slaves! If people had better morals, they wouldn't feel the need to get violent when/if immoral things are legalized. If people had better morals, they would probably care about their capability to spread STDs.

So yeah. The problem is people's morality. I don't know about you, but I can't think of a good way to go about changing that. Wishful Thinking, perhaps.

I'm still in favor of legalizing it in ideal circumstances. Meaning that there is good oversight and regulation. I wouldn't, for instance, advocate legalizing it in countries where you couldn't trust the government to make things better.

Eh, I don't think anywhere in the world is ideal enough for this, is the problem.

Yeah, yeah, wikipedia isn't reliable, but I wanted a concise definition. Prostitution is an institution like marriage insomuch as it has its own rules for how people are supposed to behave and interact. That's how I meant the word.

Pretty much every business ever has rules for how people are supposed to behave and interact. Not every business is an institution.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/social-institutions/ <-- The source for your wikipedia article.

Typically, contemporary sociologists use the term to refer to complex social forms that reproduce themselves such as governments, the family, human languages, universities, hospitals, business corporations, and legal systems.

Prostitution rings are none of these, and would never become one of these even if legalized and theoretically reformed.

 

[DoctorSlavic]

Just wondering, could someone do research and create a pros and cons list for it being legalized and one for it not? Also, I don't think it is too fair for anyone to try to argue that it is a degrading service or not unless they are a prostitute because we don't actually know what it is like. Another problem is that it is difficult to take into account the government because they can't do anything in the way of regulations or protection regarding prostitution. If it is legalized, it could very well make prostitution a good, safe and productive business, or have absolutely no effect on it whatsoever. We just don't know yet.

 

[Narcissist]

This thread has moved on quite a lot since I was last online to reply..
So I'll say something different.

If the majority of prostitutes are victims of human trafficking/slavery, then if prostitution is illegal (not just pimping or human trafficking), doesn't that make the prostitute a criminal too, not the victim? It also makes the prostitute one to be arrested and taken to jail and given a criminal record too. Who is going to want to hire someone with a criminal record for prostitution? Yes, you can have them expunged but that's after years. Where else does the prostitute go until then except back to prostitution? If there was the possibility of a person ever escaping this slavery then it's disappeared with a mark on their name and a criminal record.
If they're just a victim of human trafficking or simply cannot find any other means of support then how is labelling them a criminal going to improve their situation?
Surely only the ones who are 'pimping' them out or forcing them into slavery should reap the jail time?

You might say that even if it's legal would anyone want to hire a prostitute if they want to leave the profession? Well, if it's legalised and recognised as an actual trade, then work could be done for the stigma associated with it to be abolished. I'm not saying it would be instant or completely disappear but work could be done. And I don't know if this is too idealistic or not (I don't know if we're looking at this based in a specific country or worldwide), but what about also attacking the root of the problem? The poverty that makes prostitution such an easy way out and the offers of a better life by traffickers so appealing? Possibly too ideal.
Any thoughts?

 

[Nafe]

I drive past three regulated, legal brothels on my way to work. I have no problem with legalized prostitution, and feel somewhat that it should be encouraged. There are VERY strict regulations here in Queensland, Australia in regards to brothels to keep the environment safe for both the worker and the client. I personally have no interest at all in visiting a prostitute or paying for sex, but I don't see highly regulated prostitution as irresponsible. The workers obviously have to be over the age of 18. Any foreigners have to have a working visa, as per any other legal form of employment.
There are very stringent health regulations to protect both parties and only a certain number of rooms are allowed to be used for sex in the building.
So, in summary, my opinion is that that I don't agree with prostitution, but in answer to the question, I do see merit in having it legalized. There is obviously still alot of illegal prostitution going in Queensland as well, I would imagine, however there are a number of legal brothels, and I really think that this helps reduce the illegal side of the "trade".

 

[Dawn]

If it is legalized, it could very well make prostitution a good, safe and productive business, or have absolutely no effect on it whatsoever. We just don't know yet.

The debate isn't really stuck anywhere, so I don't see any good reasons to be saying such things.

If the majority of prostitutes are victims of human trafficking/slavery, then if prostitution is illegal (not just pimping or human trafficking), doesn't that make the prostitute a criminal too, not the victim? It also makes the prostitute one to be arrested and taken to jail and given a criminal record too. Who is going to want to hire someone with a criminal record for prostitution?

Firstly, a criminal record does not make getting a job impossible in the first place. Secondly, rehabilitation is available and looks mighty fine to an employer.

If there was the possibility of a person ever escaping this slavery then it's disappeared with a mark on their name and a criminal record.

I don't believe human trafficking victims are treated the same as those that are not believed to be trafficking victims. Even if they were, there is absolutely no need to legalize prostitution to fix that. That would simply be a matter of legal ignorance.

If they're just a victim of human trafficking or simply cannot find any other means of support then how is labelling them a criminal going to improve their situation?

Victims of human trafficking are often not capable of being functioning members of society without help. You don't want to begin to imagine the awful things that are done to people mentally and physically when they are forced into that business. The rehabilitation is even more important for them than the mystical "willing" prostitutes.

Not only that, but if police don't hold them for a while, their "owners" may take them back. =/

Basically? The likelihood of them just hopping on back to regular society without a hitch is pretty low anyway.

then work could be done for the stigma associated with it to be abolished.

Willing prostitutes deserve that stigma. =|

I'm not saying it would be instant or completely disappear but work could be done.

Legalizing prostitution won't work towards fighting human trafficking though. ;(

And I don't know if this is too idealistic or not (I don't know if we're looking at this based in a specific country or worldwide), but what about also attacking the root of the problem? The poverty that makes prostitution such an easy way out and the offers of a better life by traffickers so appealing? Possibly too ideal.

Improving the economy would probably have an effect, but it wouldn't be good enough to be considered solving the problem. Consider that while many are forced due to money issues, a great deal are forced for other reasons too.

As much as I hate talking about child prostitution, and I really do, consider how ridiculously small the ratio of adult prostitution is to child prostitutes. You would think there would be many more adults, but no, it's actually not like that.

This is not necessarily a sign of pedos taking over the world. (Though pedos are probably a factor. -_-') See, to a pimp, a child is easy to brainwash with threats, violence, and other awful, awful mind control methods. They can be snatched off the street without much difficulty if they happen to be alone for whatever reason. ;/

So while improving the economy might dissuade some prostitutes from seeking it out on their own, their captors will just go out "hunting" for more when/if they please. =/

So, in summary, my opinion is that that I don't agree with prostitution, but in answer to the question, I do see merit in having it legalized. There is obviously still alot of illegal prostitution going in Queensland as well, I would imagine, however there are a number of legal brothels, and I really think that this helps reduce the illegal side of the "trade".

That would be false attribution. That is to say, your reasoning doesn't actually support your argument. You say you see them, have no interest, but not only know in detail how they operate, (Perhaps there's an easy explanation for that one) but to top it off, jump to assuming this somehow lowers the amount of "illegal" prostitution. Even if your reasoning did support the conclusion, it would be a hasty generalization.

 

[GhostOfPhazon]

I'm noting that there seems to be an important duality to the nature of this discussion that is being at least somewhat ignored. That is to say, the distinction between the people who choose prostitution and the people who are forced into prostitution. I think it's very important to acknowledge this distinction because it essentially adds two additional sides to the argument and I think people seem to be flipping back and forth from one of their arguments to the other without realizing it.

Yellow's side of the argument seems to be defining the resulting effects for each side of the choosing/forced split that legalizing prostitution would cause as such: at best, legalizing prostitution will do nothing to help the people forced into prostitution, and that the people who choose of their own free will to be prostitutes are being punished by the law for choosing to do something morally wrong and that changing the law so as to not punish those who need to be punished is wrong. This is a situation where nothing is gained, regardless of which side of the split you are looking at.

And as for the opposing side of the argument, the effects resulting from legalizing prostitution for each side of the split is that: people being forced into prostitution, at worst, won't be affected by the legalizing of prostitution, and that the people who choose of their own free will to be prostitutes will be protected as they do something they have the right to do and it is morally correct to defend people who exercise their rights from losing those rights. This is a situation where nothing is lost, regardless of which side of the split is looked at.

Before I proceed any farther, I'd like to ask if I'm summing this up correctly, or if I'm misinterpreting or missing the point of either side. Does anyone object to what I'm stating about their side of the argument?

 

[Nafe]

Well, granted, I don't know much about illegal prostitution, BUT it seems pretty obvious to me that if you were someone CHOOSING to go into that line of work, the legal option should, to any logical minded person, win out. It's safer, you aren't going to go to jail, and chances are you earn more $$ as well.
Oh and I don't appreciate people, particularly those that don't know me, making judgements and insinuations about me... I would physically have to drive my car with my eyes closed to not see these 3 brothels... And that certainly isn't safe.
There is actually a very simple explanation about how I know the basics, not in depth at all like you assume, of it.... Google. There is alot of information freely available via the web these days.....
And, out of interest, who made your opinion the only one that matters? I was under the impression this was a PUBLIC forum?

 

[GhostOfPhazon]

And, out of interest, who made your opinion the only one that matters? I was under the impression this was a PUBLIC forum?

The fact that this thread is a debate means that it's the job of the people in it to convince other people of their own opinion. Her opinion isn't the only one that matters, and if you skim through the thread you'll see a number of other people debate their own opinions with her.

 

[Nafe]

I understand that everyone has an opinion, but she can't seem to see merit in other peoples. From my skimming I have seen that she likes to shut down everyone else's thoughts and make judgements. That is MY OPINION and OBSERVATION on the public "debate".
Oh, and I know what a debate is bud... ;)

 

[Dawn]

Yellow's side of the argument seems to be defining the resulting effects for each side of the choosing/forced split that legalizing prostitution would cause as such: at best, legalizing prostitution will do nothing to help the people forced into prostitution, and that the people who choose of their own free will to be prostitutes are being punished by the law for choosing to do something morally wrong and that changing the law so as to not punish those who need to be punished is wrong. This is a situation where nothing is gained, regardless of which side of the split you are looking at.

Before I proceed any farther, I'd like to ask if I'm summing this up correctly, or if I'm misinterpreting or missing the point of either side. Does anyone object to what I'm stating about their side of the argument?

I would additionally argue that there is heavy potential for harm as a result of legalization. Seems to be the only major thing I'm currently noticing missing.

I understand that everyone has an opinion, but she can't seem to see merit in other peoples. From my skimming I have seen that she likes to shut down everyone else's thoughts and make judgements.

Attacking me won't make your argument stronger.

"Google" is not a verifiable, let alone reputable source. You've provided nothing to back up the conclusions you're making. There's absolutely nothing wrong with me pointing it out.

Nobody is attacking you. The only thing being attacked is your argument.

Debate is not a place where everyone sits down and respectfully voices their opinions. That's more along the lines of a vote. Debate is where you make arguments supporting a side and back them up. One of the primary goals is to make an argument that can't be "shut down". One of the other primary goals is to "shut" any fallacious arguments "down".

 

[FreakyLocz14]

If it were legalized, a lot of women who are trapped in a cycle of abuse by pimps, STDs, and abusive johns would come out of the shadows and get help. The same goes for male prostitutes (especially in the homosexual industry) and transgendered prostitutes.

 

[Fouluryu]

No it shouldn't be legalized. This would result of STD and other diseases becoming more liable to others.

 

[Nafe]

I am not attacking you at all, just pointing out my observation, which everyone else seems to be doing as well?
Google is where you search, and that leads you to other sites.... I got the information from the Queensland Government website after following a link from Google. I'm pretty sure, given that the Queensland Government regulates the industry here in Queensland, that the information available from their website IS going to be reliable ;)
Oh, and the original post didn't mention debating, just personal opinions and a discussion.
So I put mine forth :) Not saying my opinion is better than anyone else's, or more correct, like everyone else seems to think of theirs.
But hey, of course all of these people younger than me know MUCH more about everything than I do :)

 

[Dawn]

...Nafe, this has become ridiculous.

Nobody's age or credentials matter in a debate.
Nobody's observations about me, or any of the other users here, have a place in this debate.
These mind games, where you insist everything is an opinion regardless of logical or factual backup, don't have a place either.

So if it's all the same to you, I'd like to move on to something that does have a place here. I want you to simply copy and paste an URL to this supposed website here so that I can read it. Then we can talk about it's integrity. We can't just discuss it's integrity before you show me it because that's completely unfair to me to have to take your word for anything you say it says or does and not be able to point out anything it says or does wrong.

 

[GhostOfPhazon]

Google is where you search, and that leads you to other sites.... I got the information from the Queensland Government website after following a link from Google. I'm pretty sure, given that the Queensland Government regulates the industry here in Queensland, that the information available from their website IS going to be reliable ;)

You said you had gotten your information from Google; how was anyone suppose to guess that you meant going from Google to the Queensland government's own website and not some random blog or page on Wikipedia? Google itself isn't a good source, but you can use it to find them. And if you do, then it isn't really Google you're getting your information from.

Oh, and the original post didn't mention debating, just personal opinions and a discussion.
So I put mine forth :) Not saying my opinion is better than anyone else's, or more correct, like everyone else seems to think of theirs.

I would think that whenever people are to discuss their opinions it should be a given that a debate will come of it. If not, then this thread would just be people saying what they think and that they disagree with each other, but nothing more.

But hey, of course all of these people younger than me know MUCH more about everything than I do :)

We're not really much younger than you. I'm only behind you by at most a year, and Freaky in fact is older than you. And I can't speak for Yellow, but she's certainly behaving in a way that denotes maturity.

 

[Nafe]

My age isn't listed, and if yours is correct you are much more than a year younger than me? As is freaky?

Oh yeah, and to prove that I wasn't lieing or make things up.....
https://www.pla.qld.gov.au/
Prostitution Licensing Authority of Queensland.....

 

[GhostOfPhazon]

My age isn't listed, and if yours is correct you are much more than a year younger than me? As is freaky?

Oh yeah, and to prove that I wasn't lieing or make things up.....
https://www.pla.qld.gov.au/
Prostitution Licensing Authority of Queensland.....

Actually, I apologize for that, I misread the little about-you part in the upper right of your posts and thought I saw your age there. My bad.

 

[Dawn]

https://www.pla.qld.gov.au/

Alright, so, what exactly in this website supports that legalizing prostitution fights human trafficking, STDs, or that it does anything other than protect the people who willingly choose to become prostitutes, as in the ones who don't even deserve the protection in the first place.

All I see is a website that glorifies its' actions legalizing prostitution by being professional about it. Correct me if I'm wrong by showing me more specifically what I'm missing. Does it even help solve the problem that people are being forced into the business by monetary issues, or does it just accept slaves and look the other way because supposedly treating them "better" makes it more acceptable?

Does data suggest that this somehow lowers STD spread? I don't see any claims to such.

Now I'm going to submit evidence of my own.

https://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8266782/migrant-prostitutes-on-rise-in-qld

Here's two more quotes from the article. The first one looks good, but then you read the second one and boom, fridge horror.

The number of street workers in the state has dramatically declined from 800 offences per year to 60 since the last review in 2004.

Although prostitution had been regulated in Queensland since 1999, the CMC said the illegal prostitution market is thought to be larger than the legal sector.

So wait, they're catching a lot less illegal prostitutes, but the illegal prostitution business is still there and healthy...

We can infer from this that they're having a much harder time catching illegal prostitutes.

Not only that, but it has been over ten years and illegal prostitution is still a big problem there.

I ah... believe I was saying this sort of thing would happen.

 

[Alley Cat]

I have mixed feelings about this. For one, its the person's own body and they have the right do with it as they please. If they want to sell their self for sex, well then, let them do it.

But the illegal sector of prostitution would be hard. Because, you can't tell just by looking at someone if they are doing it of their own free will or not. && I highly doubt they are going to be saying that someone forced them into it, when they know that the person forcing them into it is within earshot, and has probably threatened and abused them before.