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Japanese war crimes and overdue apologies

Jolene

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    I've been studying 20'th century history and I learned that Japan did a lot of bad stuff before when they were an empire. I always knew that they were bad to our prisoners of war, but they did even worse things to the people who lived in China:

    (Don't read these if you are easily grossed out)


    Nanking Massacre:


    Spoiler:



    Human experimentation:

    Spoiler:



    And what's really bad is the Japanese government still hasn't apologized for what they did, and they refuse to admit that they did wrong. They also seem to be trying to pretend that it didn't happen because they don't teach it in much detail at schools, so a lot of Japanese kids don't even know about it. I think that's appalling. I think that the Japanese government should forget their pride for a bit and say sorry for what their country did to China.

    Do you agree?
     
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    Atrocities are committed by all sides in war. I'm rather sure Allied nations also supported forms of human experimentation; also the Tokyo bombings, Dresden bombings and the nuclear warheads dropped on Nagasaki & Hiroshima show that both sides are capable of committing terrible deeds. War is never pretty.
    There were plenty of post-war trials to try and punish those responsible for war crimes. Not sure what an apology is worth when it's something like this, but anyway:
    Wiki said:
    Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama, in August 1995, stated that Japan "through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations", and he expressed his "feelings of deep remorse" and stated his "heartfelt apology". Also, on September 29, 1972, Japanese Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka stated: "[t]he Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself."
    I guess they apologised already.
     
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    Spoiler: a lot of countries did a lot of bad stuff. Official apologies are only symbolic, and mean very little. With regards to the 'covering up' of that period of history, other countries do the same - British schoolchildren don't learn about the Boer Wars, where Lord Kitchener installed concentration camps to control the population of South Africa. All the information about these sort of things is available on the Internet, so it can be found. (There are some issues with systems like the Golden Shield, I appreciate.)
     

    Jolene

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    Spoiler: a lot of countries did a lot of bad stuff. Official apologies are only symbolic, and mean very little. With regards to the 'covering up' of that period of history, other countries do the same - British schoolchildren don't learn about the Boer Wars, where Lord Kitchener installed concentration camps to control the population of South Africa. All the information about these sort of things is available on the Internet, so it can be found. (There are some issues with systems like the Golden Shield, I appreciate.)

    British schools teach the Boer War at sixth form level. I know some people who are studying it at the minute.

    And the concentration camps in the Boer War weren't designed to kill people or make them suffer. They were set up to stop civilians from helping the enemy soldiers. But the problem was the people who ran them didn't have enough resources or knowledge to support all the people, so a lot of them died from starvation or disease. It's still really bad though.
     
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    British schools teach the Boer War at sixth form level. I know some people who are studying it at the minute.

    Ah, I'll admit defeat there. The people in my school have been studying Irish history (though that's hardly any better when you consider their historical relations with Britain), which is why I had said that.
     
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    "Only the winners decide what were war crimes."—Gary Wills

    And that's my take on it, what is good or bad, any given scenario, is a merely subjective standpoint. No nation needs to apologise for being itself.
    The treatment of prisoners makes a good example of this. In Japan it is/was a great dishonour for a warrior to be captured, and a shame to his family and nation. Retention of honour is/was more important a concept than retention of life, and so as per their culture they were right to treat captives as subhuman. It is an exclusively Western ideal that everyone deserves something.


    British schools teach the Boer War at sixth form level. I know some people who are studying it at the minute.
    But sixth form isn't children.
     
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    Miz en Scène

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    "Only the winners decide what were war crimes."—Gary Wills

    And that's my take on it, what is good or bad, any given scenario, is a merely subjective standpoint. No nation needs to apologise for being itself.
    The treatment of prisoners makes a good example of this. In Japan it is/was a great dishonour for a warrior to be captured, and a shame to his family and nation. Retention of honour is/was more important a concept than retention of life, and so as per their culture they were right to treat captives as subhuman. It is an exclusively Western ideal that everyone deserves something.
    Basically, what you just said means that cruelty is relative?
    I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. If the Nazis won WW2, the other countries would still teach about the atrocities committed during the holocaust in schools, and that would still qualify as being wrong. That's if Germany doesn't stop it from being printed of course. Still, no matter whose side it's on it's still wrong.

    Take for example Great Britain. Malaysia gained independence from GB in 1957. Even though you can say that GB technically won in that war, we still remember the hundred years of unfair taxation and rules that the British people used on Malaysia during the colonial age. Its still treated as a war crime-somewhat- in schools in Malaysia these days. We've forgiven Britain though.

    I think what you mean is, war crimes are relative to the country. What constitutes as war crimes may constitute as strategy for the other side.
     

    Jack O'Neill

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    The fact that it was culturally acceptable at the time for the Japanese to mistreat prisoners of war is not a valid moral or legal justification for such behavior. Other Japanese war crimes, namely human experimentation and the forced prostitution of women in occupied territories, are utterly indefensible from any standpoint.
     

    22sa

    ロミオとシンデレ? ?? �� �� �� �� �� �� �� ��
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    The fact that it was culturally acceptable at the time for the Japanese to mistreat prisoners of war is not a valid moral or legal justification for such behavior. Other Japanese war crimes, namely human experimentation and the forced prostitution of women in occupied territories, are utterly indefensible from any standpoint.
    As far as I'm concerned, the Russians were much worse... see the statistic may have been 20k raped in Nanking, but it was 2 million in Germany when the Russians invaded. And over 10 million in Eastern Europe all towards, all thanks to allowing the Russians to advance through them.

    At least (besides Nanking) Japan's forced prostitution tactic using a select group of women saved the rest of the local female populations from the evil.

    This is another reason I actually like the Nazi Army. They weren't only good fighters, but they abstained from the activities of rape which most armies committed in WW2 and throughout history.
     

    Jolene

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    This is another reason I actually like the Nazi Army. They weren't only good fighters, but they abstained from the activities of rape which most armies committed in WW2 and throughout history.

    No they didn't. They had millitary brothels all over Eastern Europe full of people who were forced to work there.
     

    22sa

    ロミオとシンデレ? ?? �� �� �� �� �� �� �� ��
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    No they didn't. They had millitary brothels all over Eastern Europe full of people who were forced to work there.
    o.O Can't say I've heard that one before
     

    Jolene

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    They're not well-known because they weren't tried at the Nuremberg Trials. Google it.
     
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    As far as I'm concerned, the Russians were much worse... see the statistic may have been 20k raped in Nanking, but it was 2 million in Germany when the Russians invaded. And over 10 million in Eastern Europe all towards, all thanks to allowing the Russians to advance through them.
    This isn't really a matter of who was better or worse. You're also comparing the statistics from a single Chinese city to an entire country. The Red Army was also much larger than the Imperial Japanese army, so there's bound to me more cases of rape, civilian murder etc.

    At least (besides Nanking) Japan's forced prostitution tactic using a select group of women saved the rest of the local female populations from the evil.
    Don't try to justify something like that, it cannot be justified in any case.

    This is another reason I actually like the Nazi Army. They weren't only good fighters, but they abstained from the activities of rape which most armies committed in WW2 and throughout history.
    Plenty of women were raped throughout Poland by Wehrmacht soldiers during the Nazi invasion.
     

    22sa

    ロミオとシンデレ? ?? �� �� �� �� �� �� �� ��
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    They're not well-known because they weren't tried at the Nuremberg Trials. Google it.
    All right :P

    This isn't really a matter of who was better or worse. You're also comparing the statistics from a single Chinese city to an entire country. The Red Army was also much larger than the Imperial Japanese army, so there's bound to me more cases of rape, civilian murder etc.

    Don't try to justify something like that, it cannot be justified in any case.

    Plenty of women were raped throughout Poland by Wehrmacht soldiers during the Nazi invasion.
    Just saying, it's hypocritical of them to yell at Japan for war crime of rape when their ally Russia was even worse. It was 100k+ victims in Berlin, and Vienna too, if you want city statistics.

    I agree no human rights violation can be justified, but it just might have been the lesser of two evils to prostitute some women to save the rest of the local female population. It's hardly better, but it's somewhat better, for the possibility at least that it actually minimized the number of women victimized. The Russian army on the other hand were ordered to violate every female in conquered territories of Eastern Europe (all females from ages 8 to 80 I heard).
     
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    Just saying, it's hypocritical of them to yell at Japan for war crime of rape when their ally Russia was even worse. It was 100k+ victims in Berlin, and Vienna too, if you want city statistics.
    So you say there were about 20,000 rapes in Nanjing, there were approximately 70,000 Japanese soldiers stationed there. So statistically speaking, about 29% of the army raped someone. There were approximately 2,500,000 Soviet soldiers in Berlin, 100,000 rapes; So 4% of the army committed rape.

    Of course, it wasn't 'one rape per soldier', this is just hypothetically speaking to show that you can't just look at a number and say "Oh, more women were raped in Berlin, so the Soviets must have been worse!". You can never place an exact number on this sort of thing either considering a good number of the victims were murdered afterwards and there's no way to accurately record such devestation.

    I agree no human rights violation can be justified, but it just might have been the lesser of two evils to prostitute some women to save the rest of the local female population. It's hardly better, but it's somewhat better, for the possibility at least that it actually minimized the number of women victimized.
    Perhaps a better solution would have been to better discipline their troops and ban any form of rape or forced prostitution?

    The Russian army on the other hand were ordered to violate every female in conquered territories of Eastern Europe (all females from ages 8 to 80 I heard).
    The Russian soldiers were ordered to rape people? I doubt that, I expect their commanders were too busy, idk, ordering their soldiers to fight? Most soldiers committed these acts from their own will. Some individuals may have ordered troops under their command to rape any women they found, but there was no widespread order given to every soldier throughout the army as far as I know.
    The Japanese military on the other hand sanctioned these brothels and "forced prostitution" (which is basically rape anyway, in my eyes.) I'm sure the Japanese didn't care about the age of those they raped either, children wouldn't have been spared.

    The Japanese were just as bad as the Soviets, if not worse.
     
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    This whole discussion is pointless...All armies commit war crimes, and the Japanese have apologized.

    :|
     

    Fox♠

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    This is another reason I actually like the Nazi Army. They weren't only good fighters, but they abstained from the activities of rape which most armies committed in WW2 and throughout history.

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    Words do not describe what an ill informed and highly insensitive comment that was. The Nazis committed mass torture, murders, rapes of jewish and other minority women etc when they invaded the USSR. The rapes carried out by the Red Army weren't at all right, but they were out of vendetta against the Germans for the atrocities committed to their women (and men too) on their own soil.

    And for you to claim nearly every army except the Nazis committed rape against civilians on a notable scale is sickening. There are few reported cases of the British, Canadian, Italian armies and many more ever committing mass rapes of civilians.
     

    Luck

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    Words do not describe what an ill informed and highly insensitive comment that was. The Nazis committed mass torture, murders, rapes of jewish and other minority women etc when they invaded the USSR. The rapes carried out by the Red Army weren't at all right, but they were out of vendetta against the Germans for the atrocities committed to their women (and men too) on their own soil.

    And for you to claim nearly every army except the Nazis committed rape against civilians on a notable scale is sickening. There are few reported cases of the British, Canadian, Italian armies and many more ever committing mass rapes of civilians.

    You make it sound like everything the Nazis did was bad. They were the first people to start an anti-tobacco movement. Now note: I did say that's what it sounds like you said, not what you said.

    Other Japanese war crimes, namely human experimentation and the forced prostitution of women in occupied territories, are utterly indefensible from any standpoint.
    How is human subject research bad? I know they did it to test out objects of war and such, but experimentation is only bad when gaining knowledge is bad.




    They apologized. So what? Apologies don't make up for the casualties. I doubt something like this can ever be set straight when no one has the right to do these atrocities. But I'll accept apologies since it's much better than nothing.
     
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