4th Gen Legends - Real or not?

[Shiny Umbreon]

Yay! Another theory thread!

Okay, let's start. Pokémon is a game where there are many legends told and fantastic things. However, if you don't count the fact that regular animals can firebreath or those things, it's basically a normal world where science and technology keeps upgrading. Manmade Pokémon have been created, a PC storage system exists, Poké Balls are able to capture them, Machines can teach Pokémon moves they can't learn by other means, and special methods to evolve Pokémon are being discovered such as radiaton (stones/hold items/location) or mental state (happiness).

On the other side, we've all heard that Lugia is the guardian of the seas, that Entei makes volcanoes erupt when it barks, that Kyogre created the ocean and Groudon the earth, that Jirachi can grant wishes, that Dialga controls time, that Palkia created the space, that Giratina is said to live in a parallel universe, that Darkrai consumes you through nightmares, and that Arceus is the god who created Sinnoh with its thousand arms.

However, we have never seen Lugia controlling the sea (unless they're used surf or something), Entei making volcanoes erupt, Jirachi granting wishes or Dialga travelling through time. Hoenn and Sinnoh seem to have more legends, but not real evidence of these fantastic situations. The plots make you believe all this happens, like Team Galactic wanting to control the universe through Dialga or Plakia, but really Gamefreak seems to point out in some way that science is more precise.

It's said Arceus made the world while science says Mew is the ancestor of most known Pokémon. It was said Latias had powers to become invisible while the Dex says it has the ability to cover itself in a glass-like thing that refracts light. And supposedly Dialga made time and Palkia made space, but they don't seem to be stronger than Mewtwo, for example. They're just legends that don't make sense.

And something that many of you probably never thought: Arceus has the better stats. However, it can't learn some moves, unlike Mew. It's something that lives in a heaven-like place with ridiculous stats. Could it be God? Actually, no. When you find it, you'll see it's simply a Lv80 Pokémon. Just that. It can be the strongest thing there, but you can still catch it in a Poké Ball. Do you think you could catch God in a Poké Ball?

So, basically, this threads is to discuss about legends in the Pokémon world, especially Arceus. Do you think they are a little bit too exaggerated? Do you think science has proved enough? Is Arceus the real "creator of the world"? And do you think Gamefreak tries to tell us this on purpose?

You've heard my opinion, so what does everyone else think?

 

[DeathOfBlades]

Yay! Another theory thread!

Okay, let's start. Pokémon is a game where there are many legends told and fantastic things. However, if you don't count the fact that regular animals can firebreath or those things, it's basically a normal world where science and technology keeps upgrading. Manmade Pokémon have been created, a PC storage system exists, Poké Balls are able to capture them, Machines can teach Pokémon moves they can't learn by other means, and special methods to evolve Pokémon are being discovered such as radiaton (stones/hold items/location) or mental state (happiness).

On the other side, we've all heard that Lugia is the guardian of the seas, that Entei makes volcanoes erupt when it barks, that Kyogre created the ocean and Groudon the earth, that Jirachi can grant wishes, that Dialga controls time, that Palkia created the space, that Giratina is said to live in a parallel universe, that Darkrai consumes you through nightmares, and that Arceus is the god who created Sinnoh with its thousand arms.

However, we have never seen Lugia controlling the sea (unless they're used surf or something), Entei making volcanoes erupt, Jirachi granting wishes or Dialga travelling through time. Hoenn and Sinnoh seem to have more legends, but not real evidence of these fantastic situations. The plots make you believe all this happens, like Team Galactic wanting to control the universe through Dialga or Plakia, but really Gamefreak seems to point out in some way that science is more precise.

It's said Arceus made the world while science says Mew is the ancestor of most known Pokémon. It was said Latias had powers to become invisible while the Dex says it has the ability to cover itself in a glass-like thing that refracts light. And supposedly Dialga made time and Palkia made space, but they don't seem to be stronger than Mewtwo, for example. They're just legends that don't make sense.

And something that many of you probably never thought: Arceus has the better stats. However, it can't learn some moves, unlike Mew. It's something that lives in a heaven-like place with ridiculous stats. Could it be God? Actually, no. When you find it, you'll see it's simply a Lv80 Pokémon. Just that. It can be the strongest thing there, but you can still catch it in a Poké Ball. Do you think you could catch God in a Poké Ball?

So, basically, this threads is to discuss about legends in the Pokémon world, especially Arceus. Do you think they are a little bit too exaggerated? Do you think science has proved enough? Is Arceus the real "creator of the world"? And do you think Gamefreak tries to tell us this on purpose?

You've heard my opinion, so what does everyone else think?

I think GameFreak is just very desperate to look up of new sentences for the Legends.

 

[Nacon]

Its just like the science vs. religion that we see daily....

I personally feel that religion, in terms of explaining things, fills in the blanks like a game of mad libs, explaining phenomenons in terms that layman people can understand, then science puts in proper terms that explain it in a logical manner.....

Sure Mewtwo and defeat Palkia AND Dialga in one shot, but that's what he was created for. He was created through science.

Even though I haven't personally seen or used Arceus (aside from the internet) I'm guessing that he is like the Great White Shark of pokemon... not needing to evolve or change because it is able to handle almost all environments (hence the reason we can use the plates on him like that?)

Groudon could have created more land by simply causing earthquakes and land masses rising from the moving plates, while Kyogre could expand on bodies of water from creating powerful waves that cause erosion.



the main thing I wonder is whether or not they are more than 1 of these species in existence in the pokemon universe. Take the Lati@s for example... in the movie the Lati@s were descendents of other Lati@s, just happened to be, basically, a rare species.


this is a cool topic... I'd like to see other people's thoughts on this.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

I'm wondering that, too. Somehow, the game kind of hints us that there are more than one of some legendaries. For example, we can see legendaries in the Battle Tower, even the ones from your region. Also, Lugia and Ho-oh have appeared in Johto and the Navel Rock as well, so maybe they are just rare. Either that or it's just a mechanic to catch legendaries through generations. =/

 

[Forci Stikane]

I think what Gamefreak is trying to do is suggest that science beats mythology. Now, I don't mean to offend anyone, but in a way this is true. Science has made discoveries about the planet and universe that were originally explained by mythology, such as the movement of the sun and waves of the ocean. If we wanted to go deeper with that, I could even say that Gamefreak is secretly making an allusion to how the world has changed from being controlled by mythology to mostly technology-oriented.

Now, to be fair, some of those legends did indeed prove to be true. Darkrai was indeed in your nightmares when you first see him, and was most likely the infliction of the boy involved in the Cresselia sidequest (I believe the game even hints at this directly). Dialga & Palkia also were supposedly morphing time/space on top of Mt. Coronet just before the Psychic Elves showed up...and Latias could make itself turn invisible with its glass-like down (its fur or feathers, whichever), so that would count as well. That might not be much, but it still isn't fair to say that the legends never live up to their legend (:)) in the game.

Do you think you could catch God in a Poké Ball?

That line made me laugh. Honestly, though, I think we're not dealing with a "god" as in the more Christian idea as we are with a god such as the Greek idea, which included that gods were susceptible to human situations at times (see: Zeus & Hercules). It is true that Sinnoh legend stated that Arceus created Sinnoh, but Arceus could have been taking a more powerful form at the time as opposed to when you go to catch it. For instance, where are those "thousand arms" that the legend talks about?

Perhaps...perhaps the legend didn't mean literal arms, but rather subordinate Pokemon that Arceus led in the task of creating Sinnoh. This would not only explain away the contradiction with Mew and others, but also how it is possible for Arceus to have "created Sinnoh" but still be caught in a Poke Ball. After all, 30-50 Pokemon were able to revive Satoshi in the first movie, so who's to say what kind of power a thousand of them could come up with?

 

[Nacon]

hmmm... yea..... the pokemon tears......

each of the pokemon themselves have mystical powers that haven't been thoroughly or scientifically explained yet.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Yeah, well, I admit there are some things we can't contradict. I mean, we can't explain that rain that immediately changed to sun when both Kyogre and Groudon awoke in Emerald. At least not now. It seems science has no end.

Well, about the Arceus bit, it has some kind of power to change forms (plates) but nothing too impressive. And it needs an item. What do you think the plates are anyway?

And, yeah, I think Arceus is not "God", it's more like "god". But still. And the thing about the arms is kind of ironic, because, coincidentally, it can't learn moves that need arms. Mew, on the other hand, can learn Steel Wing.

 

[Nacon]

Maybe Arceus was the creation of an ancient civilization...sorta like an Atlantean-type civilization.... an ancient Mewtwo....

 

[Forci Stikane]

Yeah, well, I admit there are some things we can't contradict. I mean, we can't explain that rain that immediately changed to sun when both Kyogre and Groudon awoke in Emerald. At least not now. It seems science has no end.

Well, about the Arceus bit, it has some kind of power to change forms (plates) but nothing too impressive. And it needs an item. What do you think the plates are anyway?

And, yeah, I think Arceus is not "God", it's more like "god". But still. And the thing about the arms is kind of ironic, because, coincidentally, it can't learn moves that need arms. Mew, on the other hand, can learn Steel Wing.

Honestly, as powerful as science might get, nature is still going to be something that'll be difficult to predict.

I'm actually liking that theory of Arceus being in a different form more and more by the minute. Those plates could very well be pieces of Arceus' true power that it lost when it took its current form. Alternatively, they could have been somehow lost along the way when Sinnoh was created...or they could have even been necessary to place in Sinnoh in order to get the job done in the first place. It still explains how it can be caught in a Poke Ball, having lost the majority of its power and being forced to revert into this "lesser" form. After all, if it hadn't lost at least some of its powers at some point after that, then how in the world could it be beaten easily by a simple Level 100 UU? You can't explain that one away with science...

Heh, and it Mega Punch's with its tail. Pokemon moves make no sense sometimes. XD

 

[Justin T]

In game terms no they can't, (unless you count dialga and palkia in story mode on sky pillar) but in anime terms, ofcourse they can. Thats what makes them so great:D

 

[Live in Color]

Well, it says that Mew created all Pokemon, but Arceus is the creator of the universe. Who came first?

If Arceus is a so called "god" then it should be able to create itself on its own, but Mew created every Pokemon. Perhaps Mew created Arceus, who then shaped the universe? But then why would Arceus leave Dialga to control time and Palkia to control space. Then to only have Mesprit, Uxie and Azelf stop Dialga/Palkia (depending on the game you have) from "power tripping". (xD) Also, if there were 151 original Pokemon, then how come these Pokemon, 3 generations later, are introduced into creating the universe now...

Also if Arceus is the "creator" how come other Pokemon, such as Groudon formed the land, and Kyogre the water. But then Lugia (In Pokemon 2000) basically stops the world being destroyed with the help of the "Chosen One" (Ash) Lugia is also called, "The Guardian". Also the three birds, they control the forces of nature because of their orbs, they needed to be placed in the shrine, and yet the weather goes all out of whack, but I thought that Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza controlled the weather, not the birds?

There's something to ponder on...

 

[Justin T]

Well, it says that Mew created all Pokemon, but Arceus is the creator of the universe. Who came first?

If Arceus is a so called "god" then it should be able to create itself on its own, but Mew created every Pokemon. Perhaps Mew created Arceus, who then shaped the universe? But then why would Arceus leave Dialga to control time and Palkia to control space. Then to only have Mesprit, Uxie and Azelf stop Dialga/Palkia (depending on the game you have) from "power tripping". (xD) Also, if there were 151 original Pokemon, then how come these Pokemon, 3 generations later, are introduced into creating the universe now...

Also if Arceus is the "creator" how come other Pokemon, such as Groudon formed the land, and Kyogre the water. But then Lugia (In Pokemon 2000) basically stops the world being destroyed with the help of the "Chosen One" (Ash) Lugia is also called, "The Guardian". Also the three birds, they control the forces of nature because of their orbs, they needed to be placed in the shrine, and yet the weather goes all out of whack, but I thought that Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza controlled the weather, not the birds?

There's something to ponder on...

But then again you have to think about it. Arceus Arc as in Arc angel. Kind of writes itself. Not to mention it can become every type of pokemon. I bet if they ever make another type of pokemon, they're will just be another plate for him. By the way (offtopic kind of) Squarline Theme rules!!!

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Well, it says that Mew created all Pokemon, but Arceus is the creator of the universe. Who came first?

If Arceus is a so called "god" then it should be able to create itself on its own, but Mew created every Pokemon. Perhaps Mew created Arceus, who then shaped the universe? But then why would Arceus leave Dialga to control time and Palkia to control space. Then to only have Mesprit, Uxie and Azelf stop Dialga/Palkia (depending on the game you have) from "power tripping". (xD) Also, if there were 151 original Pokemon, then how come these Pokemon, 3 generations later, are introduced into creating the universe now...

Also if Arceus is the "creator" how come other Pokemon, such as Groudon formed the land, and Kyogre the water. But then Lugia (In Pokemon 2000) basically stops the world being destroyed with the help of the "Chosen One" (Ash) Lugia is also called, "The Guardian". Also the three birds, they control the forces of nature because of their orbs, they needed to be placed in the shrine, and yet the weather goes all out of whack, but I thought that Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza controlled the weather, not the birds?

There's something to ponder on...

Mew was never thought to have created all the Pokémon. It was said it was the ancestor of all the Pokémon. Something that could fit with both could be that Arceus first made Mew (at least two of them), who then just evolved (in the non-Pokémon way) to all the other species. But then again, the story says Arceus made the universe, then created Dialga and Palkia to shape the time and space who then made the spirits for no good reason. Then where's Mew?

Also, Arceus's story contradicts some others like Groudon and Kyogre's, as you said. Unless they are, again, just a part of Palkia maybe, who took care of the space. You could also say Celebi was created by Dialga for the time travelling stuff. And I don't know about the others, but there are people who make chain things that connect the legendaries.

Maybe they should stop giving legendaries that much power. I mean, time and space? Come on, back in the first generation, the birds had no special powers.

 

[Justin T]

True, but it was the second movie that gave them a purpose. The three titans of ice, fire, and lightning shall unlock the great guardian lugia and all that other good stuff.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

I don't remember much of the anime. Stopped watching it years ago. And I'm not sure if it's a good reference.

 

[Nacon]

I don't remember much of the anime. Stopped watching it years ago. And I'm not sure if it's a good reference.

I'm with you on that... the TV show isn't my thing....

but bringing up the Pokemon tears was a great reference to these things.

 

[Forci Stikane]

Mew was never thought to have created all the Pokémon. It was said it was the ancestor of all the Pokémon. Something that could fit with both could be that Arceus first made Mew (at least two of them), who then just evolved (in the non-Pokémon way) to all the other species. But then again, the story says Arceus made the universe, then created Dialga and Palkia to shape the time and space who then made the spirits for no good reason. Then where's Mew?

Also, Arceus's story contradicts some others like Groudon and Kyogre's, as you said. Unless they are, again, just a part of Palkia maybe, who took care of the space. You could also say Celebi was created by Dialga for the time travelling stuff. And I don't know about the others, but there are people who make chain things that connect the legendaries.

Maybe they should stop giving legendaries that much power. I mean, time and space? Come on, back in the first generation, the birds had no special powers.

Remember that comparison I made earlier of Arceus being more like a Greek god than the Christian one? Well, going along that same line again, the Greek gods actually were created by a larger being. So, what if Arceus didn't create Mew, but rather Mew created Arceus? In that case, everything branches out quite well:

---------------------------------Groudon
Mew ---> Arceus ---> Palkia ---> Kyogre ---> Manaphy
----------------------Dialga ---> Celebi
----------------------Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf (wasn't Arceus the one who made them??)
----------Ho-oh* ---> Raikou, Entei, Suicune

(*=The anime refers to it as being just as "divine" as Arceus, and I tend to take that as being canon, seeing as the games suggest the same)

...Let's back away for a minute and take a look at the big picture. In the original, japanese versions of the games, does in specify that Arceus created the world or just Shinou? If it says just Shinou, then that means that other Legendaries could have created the other areas and Mew created them all. ......Of course, when they said Mew was the "ancestor" of all Pokemon, Arceus hadn't been created yet, so it's just as easy to say that Mew's been ret-conned.

 

[Eos Aduro]

Here's one thing to remember, Mew is a mortal being, its not a god or anything! They found its DNA and were able to clone it. Can you clone a god? I hope not. And the theory that Arceus formed the world with its thousand arms could yes mean, by using Pokemon. If you look at greek mythology, there was a heck of a lot of human being interactions there. Maybe Arceus wanted to be captured in a form thats viewabkle and acceptable so it could experience more.

 

[Nacon]

Here's one thing to remember, Mew is a mortal being, its not a god or anything! They found its DNA and were able to clone it. Can you clone a god? I hope not. And the theory that Arceus formed the world with its thousand arms could yes mean, by using Pokemon. If you look at greek mythology, there was a heck of a lot of human being interactions there. Maybe Arceus wanted to be captured in a form thats viewabkle and acceptable so it could experience more.

sorta like a Jesus as the God-Incarnate type thing?

those thousand arms could have been the arms of its followers for all we know.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Remember that comparison I made earlier of Arceus being more like a Greek god than the Christian one? Well, going along that same line again, the Greek gods actually were created by a larger being. So, what if Arceus didn't create Mew, but rather Mew created Arceus? In that case, everything branches out quite well:

---------------------------------Groudon
Mew ---> Arceus ---> Palkia ---> Kyogre ---> Manaphy
----------------------Dialga ---> Celebi
----------------------Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf (wasn't Arceus the one who made them??)
----------Ho-oh* ---> Raikou, Entei, Suicune

(*=The anime refers to it as being just as "divine" as Arceus, and I tend to take that as being canon, seeing as the games suggest the same)

...Let's back away for a minute and take a look at the big picture. In the original, japanese versions of the games, does in specify that Arceus created the world or just Shinou? If it says just Shinou, then that means that other Legendaries could have created the other areas and Mew created them all. ......Of course, when they said Mew was the "ancestor" of all Pokemon, Arceus hadn't been created yet, so it's just as easy to say that Mew's been ret-conned.

OK. Dialga and Palkia made the pixies so they're in the incorrect place, and Ho-oh can't be like Arceus. Sure, Ho-oh is better than the dogs as Lugias is with the birds and as Regigigas is with the regis, but it's in no way divine, at least not like Arceus or Mew (if there's some "divine" on it).

I agree that Arceus could have made Sinnoh while others were doing their jobs separately. But the game does mention he made the universe, at least in the library thing. If it doesn't, there's still something. If Arceus only made Sinnoh and was created by Mew and everything, why is it the most powerful Pokémon. Even if Arceus has good reasons to be a god, we can't doubt about science (Mew), so I guess we have to doubt about Arceus.

And Mew wasn't cloned exactly. Its DNA was used to make a new Pokémon but, yeah, the same idea. It proves it's a normal being, not a divine thing.