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marijuana legalization

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Agent Cobalt

Proud U.S. Army Soldier
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    You missed my point. You claim that it should be legal because it has historic significance, based on this.
    No, I used historical context to explain the legitimacy of the plant as a cash crop. Again, you need to read in context. You can't just tell me I'm making points I'm not making or claims I'm not claiming.
    Every single major act of torture and injustice has at least some historic significance to it.
    Well then every good thing done has significance. Cool. However that wasn't my point. I'm not arguing historicity for history's sake. I'm arguing its viability and legitimacy as a simple cash crop historically farmed alongside other items for the general use of the nation.
    And personally, I believe that our supposed rights are outright lies. But that isn't here nor there, now is there?
    That's a difference of opinion. I'm just not one to toss aside the Bible, the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, or my state Constitution; I believe moral order and civil society are the best tools for preserving a healthy and free society.
    Oh gee, now that bull comes up. The constitution is supposed to be the supreme court of the land, but places are still exempt from that. I'm no law buff, but I can very well tell you that my rights are stripped from me when I am in my school. Don't you remember when children got suspended for wearing wristbands showing their opinion of the Vietnam war? Freedom of speech at its finest.
    Schools are primarily government institutions and set standards and codes of conduct for students to follow to ensure the best learning conditions and environment for students. That's not a violation of the First Amendment in any way. You need to read the First Amendment and judge the situation in context.
    I'll just use the words of the late George Carlin to support my opinion.

    "Either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all."

    And just in case you still think we have rights, just do what he said and go to Wikipedia, and type in "Japanese-Americans 1942".
    Wow, you quoted a comedian's skit to support an argument about rights. Ignoring that, yes we do indeed have rights. Just because men are imperfect and fail to always uphold those rights doesn't mean they do not exist. Our rights are given by God, thus God-given. They're natural rights, rights that exist in a state of nature. Instead of immersing yourself in a foul-mouthed, crude comedian's "philosophy" I suggest reading a little of John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Montesquieu, and Adam Smith for a real study of the concept of republican government, civic virtue, civil liberty, and the rights of man.
    It isn't a free country if you don't have the freedom to do what you want with your body without government involvement.
    That wasn't the question. That's all well and good, but I'm talking about the Constitution, the supreme law of the land and how drug laws are unconstitutional.
     

    Spearow

    mr. nobody
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    Why doesn't marijuana fall under the umbrella of "pursuit of happiness", Agent Cobalt? Because it's "immoral" to alter your state of mind? I don't get it.
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
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    Why doesn't marijuana fall under the umbrella of "pursuit of happiness", Agent Cobalt? Because it's "immoral" to alter your state of mind? I don't get it.
    Because "the pursuit of happiness" is a term used, by the Founding Fathers and the philosophers that inspired them, with a specific meaning. It, like anything in our great documents, needs to be read in context. The pursuit of happiness meant the ability to pursue, through hard labor in a free market economy, land ownership. A farmer can buy, maintain, and pass on a farm to his children.

    Why was it listed along with life and liberty? Because the pursuit of "happiness" or estate was one of the three God-given natural rights infringed on by the British. They took lives, they took sovereignty, and they also over decades infringed on American trade and business and unjustly took homes and farmland. There's a history behind everything, and that's part of context.
     

    Spearow

    mr. nobody
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    Fair enough. Why doesn't smoking fall under the umbrella of "liberty", then? More to the point, why would banning alcohol be unconstitutional, but a ban on marijuana not? Is there some sort of line, related to something measurable like chemical potency, past which the government is permitted to regulate our activities?
     

    Luck

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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    That's a difference of opinion. I'm just not one to toss aside the Bible, the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, or my state Constitution; I believe moral order and civil society are the best tools for preserving a healthy and free society.

    No, I used historical context to explain the legitimacy of the plant as a cash crop. Again, you need to read in context. You can't just tell me I'm making points I'm not making or claims I'm not claiming.
    I apologise for that. I've overreacted.
    Wow, you quoted a comedian's skit to support an argument about rights.

    That gives them any less credibility how? It's like saying that presidents have less credibility because they used to be actors.
    yes we do indeed have rights. Just because men are imperfect and fail to always uphold those rights doesn't mean they do not exist.
    Then what says that our rights are correct in the first place? For all you know, freedom of speech may be human given instead of god given. Maybe drugs are indeed legal considering how we are imperfect beings.
    Our rights are given by God, thus God-given.
    I'd ask you to back up your claim about the existence of god, but this isn't a religious debate, even when you are bringing up this crap.
    They're natural rights, rights that exist in a state of nature. Instead of immersing yourself in a foul-mouthed, crude comedian's "philosophy" I suggest reading a little of John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Montesquieu, and Adam Smith for a real study of the concept of republican government, civic virtue, civil liberty, and the rights of man.
    Again, him being a comedian doesn't make him any less credible. Hell, quite a few of your founding fathers were farmers, but I'm not one to decide which position is more credible. Do you want me to use the Reagen thing again?
    That wasn't the question. That's all well and good, but I'm talking about the Constitution, the supreme law of the land and how drug laws are unconstitutional.
    How exactly is it unconstitutional?
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
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    Fair enough. Why doesn't smoking fall under the umbrella of "liberty", then?
    Lol, you're just looking for a loophole, huh? Liberty is simply the absence of tyranny. It's the freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control. The right to liberty means basically the right to a republican form of government, legislative representation, a vote, and sovereignty.
    More to the point, why would banning alcohol be unconstitutional, but a ban on marijuana not? Is there some sort of line, related to something measurable like chemical potency, past which the government is permitted to regulate our activities?
    Banning alcohol isn't unconstitutional. It's supported by two constitutional amendments. The 18th which banned it nation-wide, and the 21st which repealed nation-wide prohibition in exchange for state and local choice. The 21st Amendment makes it illegal to move or use alchohol in violation of local and state law. There are countless dry counties and areas in America. Technically, it's only unconstitutional to ban it nationwide by Congress. As for drug laws, that's a collection of federal statute, congressional law, state law, local law, DEA, HHS, and FDA policy.
     

    Spearow

    mr. nobody
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    It's the freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.

    Doesn't regulation of what an individual does with his own money, in his free time, on his property, without directly affecting the lives/welfare of other individuals, count as arbitrary and despotic?
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
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    That gives them any less credibility how? It's like saying that presidents have less credibility because they used to be actors.
    Lol, nice shot at Reagan there. I'll just point out that Reagan was a soldier for eight years, a governor for eight years, and involved in political campaigns since 1948. But that's just irrelevant experience, right? <=P
    Then what says that our rights are correct in the first place? For all you know, freedom of speech may be human given instead of god given.
    Our rights are found in the documents our civilization were founded on- the Bible, the Declaration of Independence, the state charters and constitutions, and the United States Constitution and subsequent Bill of Rights and proceeding amendments. It's the basis of our nation and our republic. Our rights have a source.
    Maybe drugs are indeed legal considering how we are imperfect beings.
    Maybe? Something's either legal or not. You're making this some quasi-legal quasi-philosophical stuff dude. "The puppy is so ugly it's cute. And crack is so illegal it's legal. Dude." Ha, I don't get where you're coming from at all.
    I'd ask you to back up your claim about the existence of god, but this isn't a religious debate, even when you are bringing up this crap.
    This "crap" is what built this country.
    Again, him being a comedian doesn't make him any less credible. Hell, quite a few of your founding fathers were farmers, but I'm not one to decide which position is more credible. Do you want me to use the Reagen thing again?
    Those farmers were also statesmen, philosophers, scientists and inventors, businessmen, and distinguished gentlemen and intellectuals of their day. Being credible means being worthy of belief or confidence, something I'd apply to Patrick Henry over Carlin any day of the week.
    How exactly is it unconstitutional?
    Don't ask me, dude. I'm not the one making that case. I was asking the same question as you.
    Doesn't regulation of what an individual does with his own money, in his free time, on his property, without directly affecting the lives/welfare of other individuals, count as arbitrary and despotic?
    The way you're applying it? No.
     

    Spearow

    mr. nobody
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    The way you're applying it? No.

    What's wrong with the way I'm applying it?

    I thought the founding fathers were deists anyway, and were pretty heavy on the whole "US is not a Christian nation" deal
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
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    What's wrong with the way I'm applying it?
    Because you're saying from what I can tell that if it doesn't hurt anyone and it's made a crime then it's tyranny. Or am I misunderstanding you?
    I thought the founding fathers were deists anyway, and were pretty heavy on the whole "US is not a Christian nation" deal
    That's actually a myth. One Founding Father was a Deist. Thomas Paine, author of Common Sense and other revolutionary literature. Jefferson and Franklin are often cited as Deists, but were actually Protestants with some Unitarian beliefs. Every Founding Father barring Paine was a Christian. Three were Roman Catholics, and the rest Protestants. In fact, my signature quotes Adams on the subject.
     

    Spearow

    mr. nobody
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    Because you're saying from what I can tell that if it doesn't hurt anyone and it's made a crime then it's tyranny. Or am I misunderstanding you?

    Tyranny is a strong word - I used arbitrary and despotic because these were the words you used, but really I'd like the emphasis to be on "arbitrary". Why should something be made a crime if it doesn't hurt anyone?
     

    Agent Cobalt

    Proud U.S. Army Soldier
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    Tyranny is a strong word - I used arbitrary and despotic because these were the words you used, but really I'd like the emphasis to be on "arbitrary". Why should something be made a crime if it doesn't hurt anyone?
    Alright, that's what I thought you were doing. The answer is that not all crime's hurt people. Embezzling money, stealing, drunk driving, cheating on taxes, not paying your taxes at all, refusing the draft, prostitution, lying under oath, slander, libel, election rigging, illegal immigration... see where I'm going with this? A functioning society requires laws that uphold moral order and civic virtue, not just civil liberties and individual sovereignty. The Founders designed a republic based on the rule of law and civic duty. Designed to protect freedoms and build a strong social foundation.
     

    Spearow

    mr. nobody
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    The answer is that not all crime's hurt people. Embezzling money, stealing, drunk driving, cheating on taxes, not paying your taxes at all, refusing the draft, prostitution, lying under oath, slander, libel, election rigging, illegal immigration...

    Well, first off, embezzling money, stealing, rigging elections and possibly slander/libel definitely do fall clearly under the category of harming other people, in my book. They violate the rights of others - to possession of their legally obtained property, to an equal voice in public political proceedings, etc. As for the others on your list, I think our ideas of "civic virtue" and the bounds of government influence differ vastly, if our attitudes toward such things as prostitution are any indication (yes, I think it should be legal). I just want to know, who decides the moral order that should be followed?
     

    Agent Cobalt

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    Well, first off, embezzling money, stealing, rigging elections and possibly slander/libel definitely do fall clearly under the category of harming other people, in my book. They violate the rights of others - to possession of their legally obtained property, to an equal voice in public political proceedings, etc. As for the others on your list, I think our ideas of "civic virtue" and the bounds of government influence differ vastly, if our attitudes toward such things as prostitution are any indication (yes, I think it should be legal). I just want to know, who decides the moral order that should be followed?
    Let's be honest, having someone write lies about you doesn't hurt you. Maybe your "image" but no harm is done. The point is that not all laws must focus on the harming of someone and instead may focus on civil society and social order.

    The ideal is a society founded on Judeo-Christian principles and values. So biblical principles are the primary source. The next source is the will of the People. The power to strengthen society ultimately rests in the hands of the People. And through elected representatives our republican government establishes laws that reflect the values of the citizenry. And it's there at every level of government. National, state, and local. We're in a federal republic. So the People down at the local level have the power to organize and run their communities according to their will and preference. So if a federalist system like ours, prostitution might be legal in Nevada and illegal here in New Jersey. With the 21st Amendment, some counties may decide to sell liquor and others may be dry. That's the beauty of the American system.
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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    The ideal is a society founded on Judeo-Christian principles and values.
    Oh, that just sounds absolutely sublime. Ooh, maybe we can have another crusade, where we go invade the Middle East in the name of God. And since we're on the side of God, we can even take stuff that doesn't belong to us!

    Oh wait.
    So biblical principles are the primary source.
    Keep your magic book out of the government, please. I don't care what you believe in, but forcing your morals down our throats by way of law is fascism, plain and simple. Maybe our government was created with Judeo-Christian values in mind, but there's a reason that there's no mention of God in any of the founding legal documents (and no, the Declaration is not a legal document). You want "historical significance?" Here's some: America was founded partially because Britain was trying to cram the King's version of Christianity down its peoples' throats. Government-sponsored religion is exactly what this country was founded to prevent.

    And you want to force us all to abide by your Christian morality structure because you claim it's the ideal that our government was founded upon? Give me a break. The only reason Christianity had anything to do with the creation of our government was because nobody had any idea of a morality structure WITHOUT Christianity at the time. A flawed structure is better than no structure, I suppose.

    The next source is the will of the People. The power to strengthen society ultimately rests in the hands of the People. And through elected representatives our republican government establishes laws that reflect the values of the citizenry. And it's there at every level of government. National, state, and local. We're in a federal republic. So the People down at the local level have the power to organize and run their communities according to their will and preference. So if a federalist system like ours, prostitution might be legal in Nevada and illegal here in New Jersey. With the 21st Amendment, some counties may decide to sell liquor and others may be dry. That's the beauty of the American system.
    You forgot the corporate lobby groups buying out politicians to make their own laws that can essentially render any passed referendum, which is the last real bastion of true Democracy in our government, completely useless. I agree with your proposal that we are a "federal republic," because we're sure as hell not a democracy anymore. Every election, we get to "choose" between socialist candidate and fascist candidate, both of whom often clearly have undiagnosed mental health issues. So much for the warnings against a two-party system and electing candidates who want to be in government.


    As for the luxury tax issue you discussed earlier, I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree. I don't like a lot of government controls on the economy, but luxury taxes are one of the few that I've actually supported (though they do need to be lowered). I believe that all I said, however, was that if marijuana was legalized, it should be taxed, not that it should be taxed highly. Let's say we don't tax it at all; the benefits are still there. It could be a boon to the economy; the tobacco industry employs thousands of people in our country, perhaps millions. Who's to say that a marijuana industry isn't just what we need to get out of this poor economy?

    Alright, that's what I thought you were doing. The answer is that not all crime's hurt people. Embezzling money, stealing, drunk driving, cheating on taxes, not paying your taxes at all, refusing the draft, prostitution, lying under oath, slander, libel, election rigging, illegal immigration... see where I'm going with this? A functioning society requires laws that uphold moral order and civic virtue, not just civil liberties and individual sovereignty. The Founders designed a republic based on the rule of law and civic duty. Designed to protect freedoms and build a strong social foundation.
    Embezzling money hurts the economy, which hurts people. Stealing hurts people. Drunk driving kills people. Cheating on taxes hurts the government, so make of that what you will. Refusing the draft hurts the people doing the fighting, as taking a conscientious objector position will help save the lives of others who choose to fight. Prostitution objectifies women, but may help prevent rape, so that's hard to decide. Lying under oath may hurt whoever's on the other side. Slander and libel hurt peoples' images. Election rigging hurts an entire nation. Illegal immigration hurts the economy, which hurts people. So only two or three of those don't hurt people.

    "Virtue" and "morality" are ambiguous; homosexuality is something that is tolerable now, but was demonized for centuries, and pedophilia is something that's demonized now, but was tolerable for centuries. Upholding "morality" shouldn't mean upholding your version of morality, which is why we need to make laws that make our lives better, not ones that force one group to live by another group's rules. If we take into account peoples' rights, we can make assumptions about the previous "morally ambiguous" actions. Homosexuality doesn't invade anyone's rights (though rape does), so that should be legal. Pedophilia almost always invades a child's rights, so that should be illegal. Strangely enough, our government actually seems to have gotten it right there. Maybe they can do that more often.
     
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    iGaga

    I'm your biggest fan
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    Okay, well, I am just going to state my opinion and be on my merry way.

    I believe it should be legalized for people 21 and older. This is because:

    Alcohol is more dangerous.
    Cigarettes are more dangerous and more addicting. : D

    At least, so I have heard. I have never heard of someone dying from marijuana.
     

    Spearow

    mr. nobody
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    Prostitution objectifies women

    Who presumably agree to be objectified by choosing to work in that profession, just as pornography actors and heck, even your average attractive movie star do. Just saying. :x

    Anyway, Agent Cobalt, I don't think I'll touch the whole "Judeo-Christian principles" thing in this thread, since that's a point of contention that would take us far beyond the issue of drug laws. But can I just ask you this, out of curiosity - if your attitude towards drug regulation is that it should be free to be decided by individual state legislatures (correct me if I'm wrong, I just assumed this based on what you said), why do you support the legalization of hemp? Or are you just saying that if it was voted upon in your state/county, you would support it?
     

    SonicThrust

    Ice Cream <3
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    I'm against it's legalization, I just don't see a point. There are many possible consequences to legalizing it, many of which have been mentioned already, but I can't see it being a good thing.
     

    twocows

    The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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    Who presumably agree to be objectified by choosing to work in that profession, just as pornography actors and heck, even your average attractive movie star do. Just saying. :x
    Yeah, I've argued for the legalization of prostitution elsewhere. The positives far outweigh the negatives, and the choice is more or less up to the woman (though some may find that to be the only way to make money in this economy, which makes it less of a choice and more of a forced career path). However, I won't deny that it gives women a bad image.
     
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