Metagame Discussion Thread

[Archer]

I haven't played UU in a while, but I'm only concerned about Duggy. I don't know why Donphan was OU anyway, or where it got the usage, but I doubt it will hurt UU. Duggy,on the other hand makes a mess of Steelix and Registeel and whatever else they still use in UU. I guess we can use it to give Tauros some lovin'.

From what I can see, Umbreon's going to drop soon enough without usage, but get enough usage to be bumped back up, once people can use it in UU again. It shall be trapped in an eternal transition between the two tiers until it's insides fall out.

 

[Max™]

I'm going to be playing in NU for the next bit; anyone want to join me?

OHOHOHOH MEMEMEME.

At this point, Duggy seems like it's going to sweep everything + Magneton Trapping >_> (or TRAPinch)
I guess the best thing to do is get in strong neutral STAB attacks ^^, just don't switch in your Swellow counter too fast.

Though Im not sure how Gastrodon will put up with them, I reckon it can manage both.

 

[altaria221]

:0
They moved Duggy to UU. With such a limit on counters this is gonna be hard, every UU team will have to pack a counter to Duggy now.
As for Donphan, i can personally say that the Spin Support set sucks, as i have used him, and he flat out sucks. Easily outclassed by other Spin Supporters out there.
Well at least Duggy and Phan have each other. Phan can hit back with CB Ice Shards and Seed Bombs while taking hits with his amazing def and hp.

 

[Dark Azelf]

:0
They moved Duggy to UU. With such a limit on counters this is gonna be hard, every UU team will have to pack a counter to Duggy now.

What ?

Duggy is easy to counter, its base Attack is poop. Except that its ability makes countering it moot. So you have to revenge kill it or predict when it will come in or put a shed shell on duggy bait. Its not the things that counter it you should be concerned about using, its the things that are at risk from being trapped by it that should be your main concern.

Duggy is not a sweeper and really should not be handled as such in the generic counter/check way.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Its more along the lines of this.

 

[Forci Stikane]

LOL! Dear god, that is just going to tear apart EVERYTHING. Let's do some damage calcs.

CBDuggy (Adamant Nature, full attack EVs) vs standard wall Steelix: 426 Atk vs 436 Def & 354 HP (100 Base Power): 212 - 252 (59.89% - 71.19%). Guaranteed 2HKO. There goes Swellow's #1 counter.

Correction: Steelix is guaranteed to only be 2HKOed, whereas thanks to Arena Trap and basic human logic, Steelix will never actually be switching into an Earthquake and will always be able to launch at least one attack. Let us see how much that attack does, shall we?

Standard Smogon Steelix (Relaxed/Impish, 120 ATK EVs) Earthquake vs CBDugtrio (4 HP/0 DEF): 88.68% - 104.72%

That is almost guaranteed to be a OHKO with entry hazards down, and even has a chance to be without it. ...Of course, the aforementioned Swellow + Dugtrio tactic is not very likely to come in on an Earthquake, so how about a different attack?

Gyro Ball: 106.60% - 125.00% (Calculated at 120 BP, results may vary)

Stone Edge: 29.72% - 34.91%

Even a non-STAB, resisted attack on the switch does a fair amount of damage. So, if anything, I would say that Steelix "counters" Dugtrio, not the other way around.

Here are some other calculations I ran, just to experiment:

Standard Technitop Mach Punch (Adamant, 252 EVs) vs. CB Dugtrio (4 HP/0 DEF): 93.40% - 109.91% (Guaranteed OHKO with hazard or Fake Out and >50% chance to OHKO otherwise)

And, as for the best priority that Dugtrio has:

CB Dugtrio (Adamant, 252 EVs) Sucker Punch vs. Standard Technitop (200 HP EVs, for the sake of argument): 18.90% - 21.99%

Standard Careful Registeel (100 ATK EVs) Iron Head vs. CB Dugtrio: 63.68% - 75.00%

CB Dugtrio Earthquake vs Standard Careful Registeel (252 HP/0 DEF): 76.10% - 89.56%

Both are 2HKOs.

As Dark_Azelf said, Dugtrio itself is not really an offensive power as much as it is a revenge killer, but it can only really switch into opponents that it can safely KO in one attack, due to its poor defenses. So, the most that I really see Dugtrio doing in UU is serving as a revenge killer for certain Fire- and Poison-types. ...Although...

+0 Toxicroak w/ Life Orb (Adamant, 252 EVs) Sucker Punch vs CB Dugtrio: 89.15% - 104.72%

...Not even that is for certain.

On the other hand, saying that Dugtrio will help deal with stall teams is not exactly true, either. Because it kills some of those Poison-types, that cuts down on opposing Pokemon to absorb Toxic Spikes, which in turn might promote their use a bit more by giving UU stall another way to keep them on the field. So, if anything, Dugtrio might be promoting stall usage, in a way. Of course, this is naturally all theorymon, so feel free to ignore it, but I will be interested to see what kind of effect this actually has.


.....That last part sounded far better when I first thought of it...

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

Dugtrio in UU is ridiculous, even if I follow few the tier of Smogon (im game in the other simulator), in RS-metagame there are people that would forbid it in OU. Dugtrio is an unpleasant Pokémon. They sees (they were seen, above all), team with Dugtrio, of that the assignment has "kill Chansey", of "kill Steel-Ranom", to make sweeping the rest of the team, Dugtrio enters on every least Pokémon that has just made a kill and it eliminates it weakening the offensive department of a team. And the puzzling thing is the fact that lowest ability is not in demand to use this Pokémon. All it takes is sacrificing a Pokémon to make to enter it.

 

[.Aero]

It's time to revive this thread. >.<

Ok. D_A hates it when I get my insane amount of hax with my Jirachi, and now I think he'll believe it's even more broken. Serebii.net has announced that the event Jirachi for HG/SS will know Draco Meteor.

https://serebii.net/platinum/wifievents.shtml - last section

How do you think that this will affect the OU metagame? I feel it can make Jirachi one of the best dragon counters, checks, and/or revenge killers to date, and I expect to see his usage spike (well, higher than it already is).

 

[Anti]

How do you think that this will affect the OU metagame? I feel it can make Jirachi one of the best dragon counters, checks, and/or revenge killers to date, and I expect to see his usage spike (well, higher than it already is).

Let's not get too excited here. First of all, Jirachi needs to invest in Special Attack to get kills. For example, it has no chance of OHKOing min HP/min SDef Flygon with 236 SAtk (the stat, not EVs) Draco Meteor and a VERY low chance of killing it even with SR down. Latias (min HP/min SDef) can survive two Draco Meteors. Of course, any investment in Special attack means it can't take hits as well. Jirachi gets crushed by Fire Blasts and Earthquakes anyway.

Also, don't forget the -2 SAtk drop. It really weakens Jirachi and lets basically any Pokemon with anywhere near decent defenses switch in and scare off/set up on Jirachi. It's kind of like Overheat on Rotom-H (which, lol, is incredibly overvalued). I wouldn't use Draco Meteor on any sort of defensive set since 236 SAtk lacks power as it is. Halving it is basically saying "hey *insert Pokemon here*, come in and set up on me!"

Also, how does this give Jirachi a better chance when it already has Ice Punch (and Hidden Power Ice, if that means anything)? I mean, it's not like Jirachi is helpless against them.

On something like a Life Orb attacker or Choice Specs set, I think Draco Meteor could make an impact, just not on defensive set. Dragon has the best neutral coverage in the game, so it could be good...though there are users of the move that get STAB, and Jirachi has enough trouble with Steel-types as it is.

 

[.Aero]

I didn't bother to do calcs with what it could possibly kill or not. :/ I guess it isn't nearly as powerful as I thought it could be. Maybe the neutral coverage could be helpful, but I guess we'll have to wait and find out how exactly this new move might affect him. (Based off of what you said, I'd assume it wouldn't matter much)

In all fairness, I just think we need something to talk about as well. xP

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

Choice Scarf-Jirachi thanks to Draco Meteor he can be perhaps the good Revenge-killer of Scarf-Palkia in the uber metagame, while in OU I don't see very useful this moves for revenge-kill the dragons it is used Ice Punch.

 

[StrickeN]

Personal opinion it doesn't do much for Jirachi outside of special sweeper type sets.

It gives it decent coverage and does high neutral damage but the -2 Drop just makes it less worthwhile. It gets BoltBeam type coverage with HP Ice / Tbolt which only thing that takes NVE damage from it is Zone, which Draco doesn't do any better damage to anyway. Personal opinion Draco makes Jirachi more susceptible to Zone and other steel types to come in and hurt Jirachi.

 

[Aurafire]

Idk, Draco Meteor will help Jirachi against Kingdra a bit, but honestly, Ice Punch is a way better option for hitting the OU dragons. Definitely won't be game-breaking at all.

 

[dotKarma]

The Jirachi thing may go either way.

I'm going to be playing in NU for the next bit; anyone want to join me?

I'm game.

 

[Malevolent Mismagius]

I don't think it becomes any better of a dragon check than it already is. As Aurafire pointed out, the only thing it really helps with is Kingdra, which in all honesty isn't that hard to stop anyway. Also, after the Special Attack drop, it becomes fodder and lots of stuff can come in and set up.

 

[ABYAY]

Well, I best put a random input on everything that has been noted.

Donphan in UU: A bulky ground in UU that doesn't have a different sub-type? Nice. With a great bulk, I could see it becoming an easy switch in against Steelix, who I believe is still of very high use in the UU metagame. Rather than it running support, however, I expect it to be running some old fashioned CB, which from what I've seen, can thrash a lot of the metagame. Seed Bomb decimates things like Quagsire, Stone Edge destroys most fliers, Ice Shard for Gligar; it can't cover everything, but it can sure cover a lot. It might move to BL.

Dugtrio in UU: This one has me wary. Pursuit isn't as common in UU, except mainly from Absol and Honchkrow, both of which take major damage should Dugtrio have LO instead of CB. It will make big jumps in everything that is hindered by steels, including Swellow, and maybe one of my faves, Scyther. CB BUG O DOOM COME BACK! That might inspire to make a new team and come back to battling.

Heracross decision: What was dominant in OU stays in OU in my opinion. Heracross still punches many holes in teams, especially when it comes in on a burn. It's not the classic "Kill everything in sight" Pokemon as it used to be, it's still great. I fear that in UU, it could overwhelm many teams and would utterly destroy any team that can't counter it. It would make a big impact, probably too big for most teams to handle.

The Draco Meteor Jirachi: Honestly, as someone said, this only truly helps with Kingdra seeing that most revenge sets are physical, and Jirachi has Ice Punch for Dragons. Maybe it can be used on a Specs set, which I doubt is even used. I don't see much of a positive impact from Draco Meteor.

With a new metagame, hopefully things will be mixed up and I can utilize some Scyther/Duggy combinations. I might come back to battling for some time if things stay as they are.

 

[Aquilae]

Weezing and a lot of random flying / poison types beat Heracross though, and there are quite a few pokemon faster than it. I don't see it being dominant if it were allowed in UU.

 

[ABYAY]

Then there's only one thing to do...release that beast into UU and see what kind of impact it makes!

 

[Archer]

I really don't think it should be dropped to UU for a mere drop in usage. A huge factor is due to the fact that Scizor takes the Banded Bug role better. Hera's always had high usage and just because something got better, doesn't mean Heracross got worse. Except for the fact that more people carry Zapdos/Rotom, which makes it trickier to use.

 

[Malicious Metang]

I really don't think it should be dropped to UU for a mere drop in usage. A huge factor is due to the fact that Scizor takes the Banded Bug role better. Hera's always had high usage and just because something got better, doesn't mean Heracross got worse. Except for the fact that more people carry Zapdos/Rotom, which makes it trickier to use.

It's this kind of mentality that kept the "new" UU from forming. It doesn't matter whether or not Heracross can be theorymoned reasons as to why it'd overpower UU, if it's usage plummets to the point where it is deemed UU, it shall be tested. I mean, I can remember quite a while back where people complained things like Pinsir would break UU, and now it's down in NU. Really guys, speculating as to why something is too powerful for a given tier only hurts the metagame. Testing a Pokemon is the correct way to justify it's tiering, it always has been and it always will.

 

[Anti]

It's this kind of mentality that kept the "new" UU from forming. It doesn't matter whether or not Heracross can be theorymoned reasons as to why it'd overpower UU, if it's usage plummets to the point where it is deemed UU, it shall be tested. I mean, I can remember quite a while back where people complained things like Pinsir would break UU, and now it's down in NU. Really guys, speculating as to why something is too powerful for a given tier only hurts the metagame. Testing a Pokemon is the correct way to justify it's tiering, it always has been and it always will.

I agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that that sort of mentality CAN be bad, but only if you assume that you can determine tier placement by speculating alone. For example, there's no harm in thinking that Dugtrio will be overpowered and arguing for it as long as you know that it's theorymon and your opinion could be completely wrong. As long as people know the limits of theorymon, it's not really bad for the metagame at all. When people stop being open-minded is when, I agree, it would be bad. But eh, speculating is pretty harmless. Anybody who is against testing though is cheating the system though, I agree. I think Heracross will overpower UU since it has two 120 base power STABs of of 125 base Atk and is essentially a better Gallade (which was voted BL), but who knows, Heracross could actually do worse than Gallade.

I really don't think it should be dropped to UU for a mere drop in usage. A huge factor is due to the fact that Scizor takes the Banded Bug role better. Hera's always had high usage and just because something got better, doesn't mean Heracross got worse. Except for the fact that more people carry Zapdos/Rotom, which makes it trickier to use.

I know a lot of this was said in the previous post, but why shouldn't usage determine at least what gets tested? More importantly, what other choice do we have? Everything else is basically an educated guess (but still a guess) as to what will be UU and what won't be. We can't have an OU list of 60+ Pokemon, since that defeats the purpose of OverUsed. Moving things that fall out of ~top 50 can't just be immediately sent to BL on what is an assumption that the suspect in question will be BL for sure. That policy would mean stuff like Donphan in BL automatically, when it's clearly worth a test. Of course, we can't just pick and choose what fallen OU Pokemon to test and what ones not to - then we're back to theorymon.

I know you didn't offer any of those suggestions and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but those are basically the only other options I can think of. If we just play off of a fear (albeit an irrational one) that Heracross or anything else will ruin UU, it's just dooming the process as a whole.

Also, Scizor doesn't really do Heracross's job better since Scizor isn't doing the same job. Scizor is a revenge killer (Bullet Punch, Pursuit) and a scouter (U-Turn), but it's not much of an actual attacker - its actual attacks are quite easy to wall. In other words, people don't choose CB Scizor to force the opponent to predict its attack or take a giant sum of damage. Heracross is quite the opposite - it hits like a truck, but it is much less of a team player than Scizor. It's also worse defensively (though not by as much as you'd think, actually) and has more trouble making up for its low Speed. Basically I'm saying that they have totally different roles and play completely differently, so I have trouble seeing how Scizor replaced Heracross.