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Proposition 8 (California)

Prop 8

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 22.5%
  • No

    Votes: 31 77.5%

  • Total voters
    40
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icomeanon6

It's "I Come Anon"
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  • You can't possibly stretch a comparison between homosexuals and serial killers.
    There's no such thing as a perfect analogy. The comparison is that both murder and homosexual marriage are against the law and considered unethical by a large number of people.

    homosexuals marrying is quite different from letting bad guys run amuck.
    Actually, if we hold the argument that traditional family structure is the ideal setting for child-raising to be valid, it can be stated that the adoption of a child by a homosexual couple is psychologically harmful to the child.

    What's sacred about it, then?

    My question for you, txteclipse, is: what makes gay marriage ethical or unethical. ^^;
    Neither your ethics nor txteclipse's can be objectively justified, so there is really no point in asking that question. We live in a democratic society, and if a moral opinion is held widely and strongly enough to influence the majority of a population to vote a certain way, it is the responsibility of the government to acknowledge that opinion. Ethics aren't objective, so our decision making as a society should be mostly limited to what is objective: the popular vote.

    In other words: if you don't like how your country votes, tough. Move to an authoritarian country if you don't think democracy is the way to go.
     
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    Volkner's Apprentice

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  • Gay couples are entitled to the same benefits as heterosexual couples (hospital visitation and such), but marriage should be left for religious institutions to decide how to handle.

    Not prodding the issue further or anything, but were hospital visitations actually denied for a gay couple? Something like that I don't see being conflicted. Forgive me if it's happened somewhere and I've missed it.

    Edit: Unless you're already replying, I think I just understood what you meant by that. XDD My bad. ^___^'...
     

    Morkula

    [b][color=#356F93]Get in the Game[/color][/b]
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  • There are several "gay rights" issues that have come under a lot of debate, Volkner's Apprentice. Hospital visitation (does a gay partner constitute "family" when only family is allowed to visit), insurance privileges, employment discrimination, housing (people refusing to let gay couples live in a house they're renting, etc.), among other things.
     

    txteclipse

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  • Because clearly, two men or two women marrying each other out of love is equivalent to murder, rape, arson, etc.

    Those things harm other people physically, they cause damage to other human beings. You cannot say the same about two people of the same gender getting married.

    I think that gay marriage is wrong. That was my point. Note the bit about shoplifting if those examples aren't cutting it for you.

    And it may, in fact probably will, be harmful to allow gay marriage, at least in my eyes. I do not want my children brought up in schools where teachers can take them on field trips to lesbian weddings, or to let teachers be able to teach them in sex ed that being gay is okay. For me, that would be like allowing teachers to tell kids to shoplift. It is morally unacceptable.

    What's sacred about it, then?

    It is a holy union between a man and a woman, no matter how that definition has been twisted thus far.

    My question for you, txteclipse, is: what makes gay marriage ethical or unethical. ^^;

    Why did you link to my visitor page?

    Anyways, I am a Christian, and I am sure that you are well aware that my religion considers homosexuality to be a sin. This is really all the explanation I need, but it's not all you'll get, as I have others.

    First, homosexuality causes physical harm. I probably don't need to go too in-depth here. It can spread STD's as well, which is made worse by the fact that it is not a viable form of procreation: it is an unnecessary method to spread such diseases. It can also cause sexual confusion in those exposed to it at a young or relatively young age, which can also be harmful. It can lead to depression, feelings of low self-worth or not belonging, and the desire to get cosmetic surgeries such as sex changes, which aside from being unnecessary always carry the risk of infection, disease, and all of the other complications normally associated with surgery.
     
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  • Actually, if we hold the argument that traditional family structure is the ideal setting for child-raising to be valid, it can be stated that the adoption of a child by a homosexual couple is psychologically harmful to the child.
    Really now.
    Cite sources please, as this is the first I've ever heard of this actually being used in a debate.
    Because, to the contrary, I've seen people with same sex parents turn out quite well. The only possible psychological trauma they could face is if they were being teased by ignorant people who poked fun at the fact they have two mom's or two dad's.

    It isn't the same-sex couple's fault - it'd be the parents of the mockers for not teaching their children to be tolerant of other people.
    Like it or not, the Declaration of Independence still states that all men are created equal. You should respect everyone. It's just the right thing to do :)

    edit:
    ...
    First, homosexuality causes physical harm. I probably don't need to go too in-depth here. It can spread STD's as well, which is made worse by the fact that it is not a viable form of procreation: it is an unnecessary method to spread such diseases. It can also cause sexual confusion in those exposed to it at a young or relatively young age, which can also be harmful. It can lead to depression, feelings of low self-worth or not belonging, and the desire to get cosmetic surgeries such as sex changes, which aside from being unnecessary always carry the risk of infection, disease, and all of the other complications normally associated with surgery.
    Homosexuality passes on as much STDs as heterosexuality.
    And it isn't harmful if it's explained and accepted. If my child was having thoughts about his or her orientation, I'd talk to them and explain to him or her what they want to know - simple as that. If God made them that way, then I'd accept them.
    Why?
    Because I believe God doesn't make mistakes and he wouldn't allow these many people to exist if he didn't will it.
    It only leads to depression/etc when you have no one to talk to, essentially.
     

    Aurafire

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  • You should respect everyone. It's just the right thing to do :)

    Exactly...It's the right thing to do to respect everyone. So why isn't the opinion that gay marriage shouldn't be legal deserving of any respect? This is a moral issues, not one of right and wrong. We should respect the views of the majority of the country, just like we do for elections. It's up to the states to legalize gay marriage or not, but it's pointless to bicker and get heated over differing opinions...We're never going to change each other's mind on how we choose to think.
     
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  • Exactly...It's the right thing to do to respect everyone. So why isn't the opinion that gay marriage shouldn't be legal deserving of any respect? This is a moral issues, not one of right and wrong.
    Err, according to the dictionary, morals are "pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes." :P

    I'm just saying, if two mature adults love each other, why can't they get married?
     

    BeachBoy

    S P A R K of madness
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  • Way I see it, if someone loves someone of the same gender, good for them, not my place to say they can't love. They want to marry? Let them.
     

    Aurafire

    provider of cake
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  • Err, according to the dictionary, morals are "pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes." :P

    Right, and who's to say whether your opinion on an issue based on your morals is right or wrong? Morals will effect the way we think and how we view certain issues, which will thusly make us form opinions on said issues. Opinions aren't right or wrong...They're opinions. You're taking the definition of morals much too literally.

    I'm just saying, if two mature adults love each other, why can't they get married?

    Why does the inability to get married automatically mean that you're somehow being wronged? Is anyone saying two gay people can't live together, be happy together, and raise a family together? No one is voting against that. But I say again, this is an issue left for the states and their people to decide.
     

    ShadowDeeps

    Registered User
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    I'm to vote no, to provide a brief window into my opinion.

    To be less brief, I'm voting no because I look at it this way: so long as two lovers can be devoted and content in a relationship, who cares? Discrimination and prejudice of any kind are on equal footing when it comes to being reprehensible. To me, to traduce others for being of different preferences is to make cruelty a simple thing and to create a bandwagon within itself - why so many are inclined to make this sound like such a horrible thing remains an enigma to me. To cast off someone for being different, sexually or not, is to hate someone in my eyes - and to hate anything is frightening. It's self-destructive and leads to inward hate, eventually. But I don't get why people apply even dislike to such things. Even if it's a choice or through genetics (I suppose making it a more valid "weakness"), it shouldn't make a difference. Like the Civil Rights movement, one day we'll probably all look back upon this prop and wonder why it was ever debated to begin with. I wouldn't say it's paltry but it shouldn't incur hate either. It shouldn't be a debatable.

    Legal union is about equality, not sex. To say yes to this prop is to deny love, so if that's what one is aiming to do, then I think it just furthers the already sad world we live in. Not to be too pessimistic; those are my sentiments.
     

    icomeanon6

    It's "I Come Anon"
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  • Really now.
    Cite sources please, as this is the first I've ever heard of this actually being used in a debate.
    If that's the case, you haven't debated with enough people. As for citing a source to show you that the argument exists, which I really shouldn't have to, here you go:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_marriage#Arguments_concerning_children_and_the_family said:
    Opponents of same-sex marriage also point to research which state the power and importance of the mother-child bond compared to children without a mother.[56][65][66] David Blankenhorn argues that raising children in a same-sex marriage violates the 1989 U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child that guarantees children the right to know and to be cared for by the two parents who brought them into this world.[67]

    Homosexuality passes on as much STDs as heterosexuality.
    You missed the point of his argument, which was that it passes disease without the benefit of the creation of new life. This is also an argument that is commonly used against heterosexual sex without the intention of bearing a child.

    If God made them that way, then I'd accept them.
    Why?
    Because I believe God doesn't make mistakes and he wouldn't allow these many people to exist if he didn't will it.
    You have got to be kidding. First you get on our backs for having no reason for marriage being sacred, and now this. I will now state one of your quotes with a few words changed:

    "My question for you, txteclipse Erik Destler, is: what makes gay marriage ethical or unethical you think that God decides peoples' sexual orientations. ^^;"

    If you want to argue theology, that's fine by me, so here goes.

    <THEOLOGY>

    I don't think that God creates people in a biological sense, for he allows things to exist that are contrary to his will all the time. By your argument, God must have willed events like the holocaust simply because they happened. There are two things that I don't believe God tampers with on a regular basis: free will and nature. God lets us exist as natural selection would cause, but he gives us the free will to decide what we will do with the personal situation that we are presented with. In short, I do not believe that being attracted to one's own sex is a sin, but that practicing in homosexual sex and marriage is.

    </THEOLOGY>
     

    Zet

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  • Slaughter makes serial killers happy. Burning buildings make pyromaniacs happy. Rape makes rapists happy. Toning down the intensity a bit, shoplifting makes thieves happy. Should we stop denying them what makes them happy? Again, this is how democracy works. The majority of people decide what is acceptable and what is not. And again, I will live with it if the majority of people vote to allow gay marriage.
    you're so right, I should commit rape and shoplift then I'd be equivalent to gay marriage, it's totally worth it, thanks for opening my eyes, I could have never done that without your wisdom ^_^

    The pursuit of happiness is bound by the law, however. As I said in my before example, you can do whatever makes you happy as long as the majority of the country is okay with you doing so. The minority doesn't suddenly get special privilege because whatever they want to do will make them happy: if society worked that way, we would be forced to let rapists/serial killers/etc. do whatever they wanted, like I just showed.
    the pursuit of happiness is a law now? well ****! and it sounds like you're an idiot who will follow any garbage that comes out of someone's mouth and just follow them because you can't make your own choice in life

    I think that gay marriage is wrong. That was my point. Note the bit about shoplifting if those examples aren't cutting it for you.
    your examples are terrible, we might as well compare you to the IQ of a shovel

    And it may, in fact probably will, be harmful to allow gay marriage, at least in my eyes. I do not want my children brought up in schools where teachers can take them on field trips to lesbian weddings, or to let teachers be able to teach them in sex ed that being gay is okay. For me, that would be like allowing teachers to tell kids to shoplift. It is morally unacceptable.
    you may not know this but.... gay marriage doesn't kill people, people kill people, you get it now?

    It is a holy union between a man and a woman, no matter how that definition has been twisted thus far.
    apparently atheists can marry, who knew?

    Anyways, I am a Christian, and I am sure that you are well aware that my religion considers homosexuality to be a sin. This is really all the explanation I need, but it's not all you'll get, as I have others.
    then you will know that God forgives all and accepts all his children in open arms

    First, homosexuality causes physical harm. I probably don't need to go too in-depth here. It can spread STD's as well, which is made worse by the fact that it is not a viable form of procreation: it is an unnecessary method to spread such diseases. It can also cause sexual confusion in those exposed to it at a young or relatively young age, which can also be harmful. It can lead to depression, feelings of low self-worth or not belonging, and the desire to get cosmetic surgeries such as sex changes, which aside from being unnecessary always carry the risk of infection, disease, and all of the other complications normally associated with surgery.

    I didn't know same gender sex can give STD's, I guess the chances are lower than that to sex with the opposite gender. I dunno, I know lots of gays who aren't depressed, they're actually quite cheerful and fun to be with and I'd totally have sex with them, even though I am straight, does that mean I will get an STD? probably not.

    but anyway, same sex marriage should stay, everyone has the right to marry anyone they wish to marry
     

    Volkner's Apprentice

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  • There are several "gay rights" issues that have come under a lot of debate, Volkner's Apprentice. Hospital visitation (does a gay partner constitute "family" when only family is allowed to visit), insurance privileges, employment discrimination, housing (people refusing to let gay couples live in a house they're renting, etc.), among other things.

    Ahh, now I see what you mean, sorry about that. Yes, those types of situations should be made illegal to discriminate against, ESPECIALLY the housing thing. Unless you yourself live in the room next door to the person you plan on renting it out to, that's no reason to say 'sorry, I don't let gays live here.' That's just ridiculous.

    When it comes to marriage, I don't know, it seems like the biggest thing same-sex marriages would fight for is the medical rights, etc. that come along with binding marriage agreements.

    How the heck did marriages get so law-binding anyway? X_x So much for separation of church and state..(no, I'm not totally oblivious to the fact that marriages have been law-binding for quite some time XD I just don't know why they're still so focused on it. Well..actually I know exactly why, for a load of reasons..yet for some reason I'm still typing...

    Oh look it's 2:25 a.m. :P)
     

    Yamikarasu

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  • If it doesn't hurt anyone there is no reason to ban it.

    I understand that people have religious beliefs that say homosexuality is wrong, but I believe strongly in the complete separation of church and state, so I don't think that should be an issue, although it certainly is.

    Just remember that once people believed that interracial marriages would be harmful to society just as strongly as people today think homosexual marriages would be.

    That is all.
     
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    I'm voting yes, anyways. I consider gay marriage to be unethical. On top of that, gay couples would take benefits that are funded by my tax money which would normally be reserved for traditional couples.

    As much as I respect your opinion, there are enough homosexuals in the world to cover the benefits you're so dearly worried that they will be taking away from you. Once you give that money to the government, it's not yours anymore, sweetie. Aside from that, tax money goes to various aspects of our nation that you seem to be ignoring in that statement. How are you so sure that your money is going only directly to those who you do not wish to be united together? I am confused as to why you're even associating government with your argument here which is clearly a religion based argument. Like many people have stated, and I agree with, it's not the government's job to decide if two people who love each other should be together or not. I don't even think it's any religious leader to decide that either. Homosexual couples should be given the same rights that heterosexual couples have already. Just because in their lifetime, they decided that they were attracted to the same sex, it does not give the government to strip away rights they had when they were born into this country.

    Not everyone's religion have the same aspects as yours, though. In fact, many people don't even believe in religion these days. Punishing them just because you believe that their way of life is wrong is very hypocritical and an issue I'm surprised still exists in today's society. It doesn't matter what is and what isn't ethical towards someone who believes it should be banned. The ethics that you believe in play no part in what others believe in. If it's the life they believe to be the ethical one, nobody else should have a say in it just like nobody else should have a say in what you have to eat in the morning.
     

    Melody

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  • To be quite honest, I do not care one whit either way.
    I certainly agree that gay people have as much right to be happy as others. However, I also agree that allowing people to refer to such a union as marriage is not acceptable. In all honesty, this issue has blown up because no one has bothered to try to come up with a more appropriate and acceptable term for such a union. Maybe someday we'll coin a good phrase for it and call it a day. After all, this is America. We're very well known to squabble over issues like this and then come to slowly accept them.
     
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    On top of that, gay couples would take benefits that are funded by my tax money which would normally be reserved for traditional couples.
    Tax money also goes to help disabled people eat and live, unwed/married mothers who need help feeding their children (at least in my state), and other such needed funds. It's not like once gay marriage is legalized that all funding from the government is going to help them.

    David Blankenhorn argues that raising children in a same-sex marriage violates the 1989 U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child that guarantees children the right to know and to be cared for by the two parents who brought them into this world.[67]
    o_O That also means that adoption violates that U.N. Convention thing. If the biological parents are dead or incapable of caring for the child, it's "wrong" for them to be adopted by a couple that'll love the child(ren)?

    And I agree with Erik. I mean, not all families are traditional these days, with both biological parents raising the children. Are those families also "wrong" because they "psychologically damage" the children in them?

    This is also an argument that is commonly used against heterosexual sex without the intention of bearing a child.
    This might not mean that you wanted to bring this up, but if a problem of homosexual sex is the fact that it does not allow one of the couple to bear a child, then what about the heterosexual couples that are physically unable, or choose not, to have children?

    It can lead to depression, feelings of low self-worth or not belonging, and the desire to get cosmetic surgeries such as sex changes, which aside from being unnecessary always carry the risk of infection, disease, and all of the other complications normally associated with surgery.
    Audy covered most of this quote, and said what I was probably going to say against it, but I have more to say that he didn't.

    The reason why homosexuals feel that they "don't belong" is because of the attitude people take toward them. People ostracize them. Heck, people ostracize anyone who doesn't fit in their definition of "normal". When someone is shunned from the group for being gay, of course they're going to be depressed. They lost their group. They get insulted. They feel worthless. It's not because of the actual homosexuality. It's because people are rude to those who are different. (Not that everyone is.)

    what makes you think that God decides peoples' sexual orientations
    God is said to have made "man" in His image. Each one of "us" is made in the image of God. When you hurt one human, you are actually hurting God, because God made every one of His children in His image. If you believe that we are all children of God, then homosexuals are made by God in His image, and when you hurt a homosexual in anyway, you are hurting one of God's children, and in a sense, God Himself. (At least, that's what I can dredge out of my memory at five in the morning from many years ago.)

    My state, Connecticut, has legalized gay marriage. (However long it's going to last, I don't know. I'm happy we're currently like this.) But I would vote "no" on Prop 8 for a variety of reasons.

    EDIT:

    Maybe someday we'll coin a good phrase for it and call it a day. After all, this is America. We're very well known to squabble over issues like this and then come to slowly accept them.
    Marriage is currently defined, according to my dorky Merriam-Webster Dictionary, as "the state of being united to another person as a usually contractual relationship according to law or custom". Definitions change with the times, people. Many have done so before, and will continue to do so. The culture (custom) also changes.
     
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    Shiny

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  • First, homosexuality causes physical harm. I probably don't need to go too in-depth here. It can spread STD's as well, which is made worse by the fact that it is not a viable form of procreation: it is an unnecessary method to spread such diseases. It can also cause sexual confusion in those exposed to it at a young or relatively young age, which can also be harmful. It can lead to depression, feelings of low self-worth or not belonging, and the desire to get cosmetic surgeries such as sex changes, which aside from being unnecessary always carry the risk of infection, disease, and all of the other complications normally associated with surgery.

    I myself am gay, I had depression, not from being gay, I used to cut myself, not from being gay, from aruging with my parents. Homosexual's don't hurt themselves or others, we are harmless.
     

    Melody

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  • Quote:
    Maybe someday we'll coin a good phrase for it and call it a day. After all, this is America. We're very well known to squabble over issues like this and then come to slowly accept them.
    Marriage is currently defined, according to my dorky Merriam-Webster Dictionary, as "the state of being united to another person as a usually contractual relationship according to law or custom". Definitions change with the times, people. Many have done so before, and will continue to do so. The culture (custom) also changes.
    Well thankfully the folks who publish the dictionary are on the right track. (They usually are).
    But the fact still remains that there are going to be some extremely religious people who will fight this tooth and nail unless we come up with another term for gay marriage. I'm not saying it cant be a perfect equal to marriage by saying it should have a different word attached to it, I'm just saying that a lot of wind could be taken out of the religious side's sails so to speak...by doing so.

    And I agree wirh Claire. I've had a few homosexual experiences myself, (Curiosity on the most part) and guess what? I'm still just perfectly fine. (though I've since returned to being normal)
     

    speedinglight

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  • See, I'm pretty conflicted on this right now. I don't see how the majority of the U.S. won't vote against legalizing gay marriage, but really, it's something that is up for the states to decide.

    As for me, I'm leaning towards yes (voting for proposition 8). And no, I don't believe voting for this means you're "Anti-gay" or you think that gay people are second class citizens. I certainly don't believe either of those. I just thing marriage should be between a man and a woman. Not even for religious reasons...My moral beliefs just direct me to have this opinion. And I'd appreciate it if no one called me a coward or a nut for thinking this way, and I will try do the same. I don't think anyone is wrong or right on this issue, I just think it's up to the people to decide. If the states decide it should be legal, so be it.

    While i can honestly say that i would be on the no side i respect what you have to say on it Aura,
    "I disagree with what you have to say, but i will fight for your right to say it" - Voltaire

    after all it's freedom of speech
     
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