Proposition 8 (California)

[Melody]

While i can honestly say that i would be on the no side i respect what you have to say on it Aura,
"I disagree with what you have to say, but i will fight for your right to say it" - Voltaire

after all it's freedom of speech

Spoken like a true debater.

This is why I think we should come up with an acceptable word to express the idea of a homosexual marriage. and not call it marriage.
I believe it's the most noble way to resolve the issue. We give the gays the rights they deserve and give the conservatives and religious folk a word to demonize in their own little churchy world without being forced to challenge the sanctity of a marriage.

 

[speedinglight]

Pachi is thats the case then you have any suggestions?

 

[Melody]

I just suggested my solution. We should coin a separate term to refer to Gay marriage and give it equal meaning to marriage in all respects, and just use that word to refer to the union as either a marriage (male x female) or <whatever term is coined here> (Male x Male or Female X Female)

That would keep people from whining about the sacred meaning of the word marriage. And if you dont mind gay people so much you can hold the term for gay marriage as sacred as the actual word marriage and if you disagree then you can silently demonize it. your choice as long as you stay civil about how you express your opinion on the matter

 

[speedinglight]

i see

well i honestly have no ideas....on a name forgay marrage that was why i was asking if you had suggestions of name eheh

 

[Melody]

Oh. Well that's another discussion for another thread to be honest....
Anyways, back on track. I honestly think that there's seriously no harm in allowing gay marriage.
Honestly, I cannot emphasize enough the many pieces of scripture in the bible I've seen and heard which proclaim we are beings with FREE WILL. And to be honest, I know that The Bible also says we can be forgiven for our sins. The Bible also states that it is a sin to pass judgment upon others.

"Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes." - Mahatma Gandhi

 

[txteclipse]

you're so right, I should commit rape and shoplift then I'd be equivalent to gay marriage, it's totally worth it, thanks for opening my eyes, I could have never done that without your wisdom ^_^

You're right. It would be equivalent to other crimes as far as I'm concerned. Not as bad as rape, I'm pretty certain, but I'd still consider it a moral trespass.

the pursuit of happiness is a law now? well ****! and it sounds like you're an idiot who will follow any garbage that comes out of someone's mouth and just follow them because you can't make your own choice in life

I would advise you to use correct grammar when developing an argument of this kind.

your examples are terrible, we might as well compare you to the IQ of a shovel

If this particular shovel has an I.Q. of 135, then you are spot-on.

you may not know this but.... gay marriage doesn't kill people, people kill people, you get it now?

I fail to see how this is relevant to what you were addressing.

apparently atheists can marry, who knew?

However, they can't engage in holy matrimony as far as I'm concerned. It is unfortunate that I must now specify the difference between marriage and holy matrimony: they used to be one and the same.

then you will know that God forgives all and accepts all his children in open arms

But not all of His children accept Him.

I didn't know same gender sex can give STD's, I guess the chances are lower than that to sex with the opposite gender. I dunno, I know lots of gays who aren't depressed, they're actually quite cheerful and fun to be with and I'd totally have sex with them, even though I am straight, does that mean I will get an STD? probably not.

It is difficult to find meaning in the debacle that is your writing, but I think you're saying that homosexual individuals have a lower STD rate than straight individuals? This is untrue: they're about the same.

As much as I respect your opinion, there are enough homosexuals in the world to cover the benefits you're so dearly worried that they will be taking away from you. Once you give that money to the government, it's not yours anymore, sweetie.

Actually, yes, it very much is. Or rather, it belongs to the government, and I get to pick how my government spends that money, along with the rest of society. So if the majority of society says "no, we don't want gay marriage," then the government sure as heck better not be spending our money on it.

The reason why homosexuals feel that they "don't belong" is because of the attitude people take toward them.

This is part of the equation, I'm sure, but another, major reason they feel this way is because it isn't natural. Being gay forces your brain and body to do things they aren't intended to do. You become conflicted.

By the way, I do not in any form condone belittling or otherwise degrading any person on account of their sexual preference. I recognize that gays are still people (duh) and thus must be treated with respect. I have my own faults, and I wouldn't like it if people shoved them in my face. This doesn't mean I condone the gay lifestyle either, mind you: it simply means I am tolerant.

Not everyone's religion have the same aspects as yours, though. In fact, many people don't even believe in religion these days. Punishing them just because you believe that their way of life is wrong is very hypocritical and an issue I'm surprised still exists in today's society.

How can I be the one punishing people if what they're doing is wrong? That's like telling me I'm the bad guy if I have a shoplifter cool his heels in the slammer for a while. My moral code mandates that homosexuality is bad. Why would I see not allowing it to be a form of punishment?

God is said to have made "man" in His image. Each one of "us" is made in the image of God. When you hurt one human, you are actually hurting God, because God made every one of His children in His image. If you believe that we are all children of God, then homosexuals are made by God in His image, and when you hurt a homosexual in anyway, you are hurting one of God's children, and in a sense, God Himself. (At least, that's what I can dredge out of my memory at five in the morning from many years ago.)

And this is where free will comes into play. God does not make people homosexual: they choose to be that way. According to God Himself, homosexuality is a sin. He would not make people that are hard-wired to be sinners. It doesn't make sense.

EDIT: I really need to sleep now, and I can't see myself coming back to this thread if I can help it. I've gotten in way too many political debates lately, and it's becoming a bit too draining for my liking.

Thank you all for putting up with me and each other thus far for the most part: a lot of good, valid argumentation was brought forth, and I applaud the mostly mature manner in which this debate has been executed. This provides a good atmosphere of discussion, rather than a harsh environment that feels more like an exchange of blows.

Finally, if I have offended anyone personally, please tell me. I never desire to do so, and would like to make it right if I have. That's about it for me.

 

[Emmie Em]

To be honest, I'd prefer it if you, txteclipse would stand down from your all high and mighty chair, stop being hypocritical and get this point:

If someone loves someone, then so be it. Nobody can chose who they love so why interfere?

 

[Kotowari]

I won't be that radical, but I agree with Emily. =/

I strongly believe that true love has nothing to do with gender, and I even more strongly believe that people who are in love don't give a damn about their lover's gender.

I'd suggest you try to be more open-minded, txteclipse. :o I'm catholic myself, but that's no question here. As far as I know one cannot choose what gender to lover. =/ I think you fall in love with the person, not the package. (to state it black/white)
So I approve of gay marriage. =/ To me, it's no different than the marriage between man and woman. After all, isn't the main thought of marriage (holy matrimony or not) to connect two people who want to be with eachother? They love eachother so much that they don't want to leave each other's sides again, regardless of their genders.

Although I will say that it's still odd to see two people of the same gender together. =/ But that's just because I'm not used to it. ^^"

 

[Motsuko Live]

I'm voting yes, anyways. I consider gay marriage to be unethical. On top of that, gay couples would take benefits that are funded by my tax money which would normally be reserved for traditional couples.

So what? Whether it's a straight couple or a gay couple, you're still paying for it. *cough*discrimination*cough*

Anyways, I am a Christian, and I am sure that you are well aware that my religion considers homosexuality to be a sin. This is really all the explanation I need, but it's not all you'll get, as I have others.

So just because you're Christian means everyone else has to live by you're rules? Not everyone in the world is Christian, txt. If you're gonna try to force your religion on people, force it on everyone; not just gays/lesbians. Why don't you go run up to a couple Muslim's on the street and preach your corruption to them, too? What you're doing is discriminating, no matter what half-assed excuse you try to put over it.

First, homosexuality causes physical harm. I probably don't need to go too in-depth here. It can spread STD's as well, which is made worse by the fact that it is not a viable form of procreation: it is an unnecessary method to spread such diseases. It can also cause sexual confusion in those exposed to it at a young or relatively young age, which can also be harmful. It can lead to depression, feelings of low self-worth or not belonging, and the desire to get cosmetic surgeries such as sex changes, which aside from being unnecessary always carry the risk of infection, disease, and all of the other complications normally associated with surgery.

So you're basically saying that everyone else who isn't gay has sex only to reproduce? Why do you think they invented condoms? While a man and a woman are able to reproduce, it doesn't mean they want to do it everytime they engage in sexual activities.

But wait! Couples expressing their love for one another and not wanting to have a baby is a sin! If we go by what you're saying, it puts them right up there with gays and lesbians. Quick! Illiminate their rights to get married! Start riots, discriminate! Yes, this is what you're doing. Don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're willing to sit here and tell another human being they're not allowed to love. Don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're willing to sit here and tell another human being they're not allowed to be who they are. and last, but not least, don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're the one committing the most deadly of the Seven Deadly Sins: Pride.

Oh, and by the way, I think we're about to start seeing a lot more gay couples/marriages, especially in the Chinese/Indian areas, what with the One Child Policy and the female infanticide that's going on.

 

[Azonic]

This would just be a flat no.

For those who think that this has the slightest thing to do with religion, it doesn't. The government is not based on a religion, and it's just not right to just forcefully edit someone's belief's just because of the area in which they live in. Gays have the right to love, and as far as I'm concerned, sexuality was never a choice for someone. People are gay and they wish they weren't; they are in love with the people of the same sex, and you can't do anything to alter that. Love is an uncontrollable factor. What a gay marriage banishment is doing is just to putting a limit on the people that one can love. This is basically a second black vs. white discrimination, only relating to one's sexuality and personal preferences.

People should have the right to lead their own lives and discover their own personal interests. When blunt outsiders are voting Yes to this whole situation, then they have yet to open their eyes and feel what their victims are feeling. The majority may be against homosexual marriage, but who cares. In the old days, the majority of the people were white. They were the dominant force of this country, but now everything is equalized. And if everything is equalized, why are gays still discriminated? It's their own personal preference about who and what they like. Random outsiders shouldn't be able to choose every single opinion and trait they have. Love is an uncontrollable factor. Regardless of what others think, sexuality is not always an optional choice. There are MANY people who wish to be straight, but are gay; yet there are gays who take pride in their sexuality. Guess what? It's not controllable. For example, you love this certain someone at school but you don't want to; are you seriously going to force yourself out of loving her for someone else who's impressive, but not one who interests you? You can't tell another human being that they can't be who they are! Black vs. whites, gays vs. straights. I see little difference at hand.

The country was created equal!

Anyways, I am a Christian, and I am sure that you are well aware that my religion considers homosexuality to be a sin. This is really all the explanation I need, but it's not all you'll get, as I have others.

No one cares what religion you are. We're talking about law here, and last time I checked, the government isn't a religion.

First, homosexuality causes physical harm. I probably don't need to go too in-depth here. It can spread STD's as well, which is made worse by the fact that it is not a viable form of procreation: it is an unnecessary method to spread such diseases.

So what? Man vs. woman reproduction can lead to the spread of AIDS and the HIV virus. Do you think that should be banned? I think it's a no. So why should homosexuality be banned? Nobody said that gays actually wanted to reproduce. Man and woman can reproduce, but that DOES NOT guarantee that they want to reproduce every single time that they engage in intercourse. Their depression is only caused by the strongly biased views that most people take on them.

Since when, was loving someone you truly love a crime?

If gays were to indeed get married, they would be taking all the chances it may lead to. But it's their choice, and if they think that it's the right decision they should go for it. Both heterosexual and homosexual marriage have risks. Point is? You're only taking away the rights of people who you haven't even met. You're judging someone upon who they have to be and not who they really are.

Love has no gender.

 

[St. Anger]

It doesn't matter religion. Chances are you have commited another sin or something against Christianity, so you would go to hell anyway.

 

[Nick]

It doesn't matter religion. Chances are you have commited another sin or something against Christianity, so you would go to hell anyway.

You seem to be missing the point that some people are trying to make:

There are more religions in the world than Christianity. Therefore, how can someone be defined in a Christianity sense if they are not a Christian to begin with?

 

[Spinor]

I am not gonna cower, I will not give a fudgein damn about my rep. I will express myself in public, with my truthful opinion: Yes

I beleive Gay marriage is wrong. I may live in Texas, but I will College in California. If Gay Marriage is not illegalized, it will be abused, thus, more conflict. So I believe and immediate stop from the government is necessary on this.

I do not hate gays. But I do not like their way of expression. Gay bars are morally wrong. Man-kind has developed into morals that consider homosexuality wrong. As wrong a Pedophilia, Necrophilia, Zoophilia, and sometimes Polygamy.

Go ahead, rep me if I just shot you up and uped you shot. Just remember: It's either a stop now, or a stop in the future with more technology, wisdom, and conflict.

 

[Motsuko Live]

I am not gonna cower, I will not give a fudgein damn about my rep. I will express myself in public, with my truthful opinion: Yes

I beleive Gay marriage is wrong. I may live in Texas, but I will College in California. If Gay Marriage is not illegalized, it will be abused, thus, more conflict. So I believe and immediate stop from the government is necessary on this.

I do not hate gays. But I do not like their way of expression. Gay bars are morally wrong. Man-kind has developed into morals that consider homosexuality wrong. As wrong a Pedophilia, Necrophilia, Zoophilia, and sometimes Polygamy.

Go ahead, rep me if I just shot you up and uped you shot. Just remember: It's either a stop now, or a stop in the future with more technology, wisdom, and conflict.

Care to explain how you think gay marraige will be abused? It's marraige, bud... how much can you abuse it?

 

[Spinor]

With the issues going on. Not many gays are getting married.

But if it does not become illegalized. They will think the Government is on their side. More will get married. More Anti-Gays will be angry.

Either now, or later with cruelty.

 

[Ivysaur]

With the issues going on. Not many gays are getting married.

And? Having rights doesn't mean you have to use them. It just means you are free to use them whenever you want.

If straight people suddenly stopped getting married, would you suggest illegalizing the straight marriage?

But if it does not become illegalized. They will think the Government is on their side. More will get married.

Okay, may I ask why would the government NOT be with a group of citizens who want to have their rights? Just wondering. The government is supposed to support the rights for all the citizens.

More Anti-Gays will be angry.

If you illegalize it, gays and right-supporters will be angry too. But yeah, let's ban Obama from the presidency because he'll make anti-black people angry.

Either now, or later with cruelty.

That sentence scares me o_O
Care to explain, please?

 

[Aegis]

I do not hate gays. But I do not like their way of expression. Gay bars are morally wrong.

So, you're saying that every homosexual person will go to a gay bar in their life? That's like saying every straight person will go to a non-gay bar in their lifetime. Just because their out there doesn't mean that the majority goes to them. The homosexual people who go to gay bars just make up a percent of all homosexual people, there are a good many who're just like straight couples, and don't do anything "immoral" like that. There's a good many heterosexual strip clubs out there, but not all heterosexual people will go to one in their life, now will they?

 

[Motsuko Live]

But if it does not become illegalized. They will think the Government is on their side.

Uh, yeah... that's the idea. By keeping gay marraige legalized, the government is basically saying that they are on their side.

And tough luck if anti-gays get their panties in a knot. By illegalizing it, more gays/lesbians will be angry. There's no win-win solution, here. However, there is a win-win solution for the majority of the people: keep it legalized. The number of gays plus the amount of straights who are pro gay marraige is obviously more than the number of anti-gays. See what I'm getting at here?

 

[Xaviar]

It can also cause sexual confusion in those exposed to it at a young or relatively young age, which can also be harmful.

Well, at least children raised by homosexual couples will be more open-minded than the lot of anti-gays out there...

I think denying the right to have a homosexual marriage is unconstitutional. And by the way, everyone who is using the argument of "My tax dollars are being spent on what I don't want!"... What about the single mothers filing for benefits? Not letting homosexuals marry is like forcing single mothers to get married so the government no longer has to pay for further education, etc.

 

[txteclipse]

Aaand I'm sucked directly back in. I never can pull off extricating myself from this type of thing. :\

So what? Whether it's a straight couple or a gay couple, you're still paying for it. *cough*discrimination*cough*

Don't be roundabout. I can take you calling me a discriminator directly. Anyways, my point was that all of the money would be going to conventional couples. If gay marriage stays legal, gay couples would absorb some of the funds that should be going to conventional couples.

So just because you're Christian means everyone else has to live by you're rules? Not everyone in the world is Christian, txt. If you're gonna try to force your religion on people, force it on everyone; not just gays/lesbians. Why don't you go run up to a couple Muslim's on the street and preach your corruption to them, too? What you're doing is discriminating, no matter what half-assed excuse you try to put over it.

Okay. If the majority of the country decides a rule should be in effect, it must go into effect. This is democracy. I've said this many times already. I'm not saying the entire country is Christian. I'm saying a good portion of it is, and we want equal representation. When the few have the majority vote, democracy has failed.

So you're basically saying that everyone else who isn't gay has sex only to reproduce? Why do you think they invented condoms? While a man and a woman are able to reproduce, it doesn't mean they want to do it everytime they engage in sexual activities.

They invented condoms because people have so little control over their sexual desires that they needed a way to stop us from having so many babies. That and it's a good business venture: lots of money is made through sales of birth control.

Anyways, people have sex to a) have babies, b) feel good, and/or c) to express love.

But wait! Couples expressing their love for one another and not wanting to have a baby is a sin!

If you are referring to married couples, I have no trouble with them using birth control. They should be the only people having sex in the first place, as far as I'm concerned. Obviously this is not the case, but...tolerance.

Don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're willing to sit here and tell another human being they're not allowed to love.

I am willing to sit here and defend what is me and mine from immoral actions that are slowly polluting the world around me. And guess what? I have plenty of male friends that I have no desire whatsoever to be sexually active with. I would consider some of them to be closer than I could ever come to a woman. Love and sex are exclusive: you keep acting like they aren't. There is such a thing as platonic love.

Don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're willing to sit here and tell another human being they're not allowed to be who they are.

And here we go again with the majority of society deciding what is acceptable. You can do whatever you want as long as the rest of society is okay with you doing so. If they feel you shouldn't be doing it, and they are in the majority, you have no right to do it anyways. See Exhibit 1: shoplifters.

On top of this, being gay is a choice. You decide what your sexual orientation is. You decide what impulses to act on. It is your responsibility. Saying otherwise is a cop-out. It would be like my shoplifter example saying they have to steal because they were born that way.

If being gay was genetic, it would have been bred out of the human race by the first few generations. Gay = no children, except in rare instances. In fact, it is such a direct reproductive deterrent that it would be foolish to say it could last this long.

and last, but not least, don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're the one committing the most deadly of the Seven Deadly Sins: Pride.

You think I enjoy doing this? You think I enjoy watching people do things like this to themselves? Homosexuality is one of the most tragic lies Satan has ever fed into society. I take no pride in seeing what is happening to people. This isn't an ego trip for me: it's a spiritual war in which there are too many casualties. Please don't think that I'm doing this to feel good about myself or whatever. This is about me protecting myself and mine from what I regard as a destructive lie.

And I'm not without fault: I would never, ever claim that. In fact, without going into details, I have some fault in this matter, or one like it. But at least I do not hide behind pretenses of righteousness. I recognize that what I do is wrong, and I try to correct it. And if I were harming society, I would expect society to keep me from doing so, per their wishes. I can't force you to think in the same manner, but that's where tolerance comes in.