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Religion and God

Myriad

Formerly Lawlietta.
231
Posts
9
Years
  • Did you know that using mathematical logic, we assume something is true if it cannot be proven false, simply because there is a possibility that it could be true? Furthermore, science is not faultless by any means, and even things that have been proven correct cannot be certified to be 100% true, because it is based on observation and not pure logic. If you wanted to prove that a higher power does not exist and be 100% certain of it, I defy you to do so mathematically. ;) Otherwise it's futile to stand from a position saying that science has proven that God doesn't exist- if he did, would some silly instruments of mankind be able to detect him?- especially since scientists have said no such thing. Some of them go so far as to believe in God themselves. Therefore, your standpoint is invalid and the burden of proof lies on you and Gimmepie equally. As he has already mentioned, atheism and theism are both beliefs in their own right, and neither belief can be proven to be right beyond reasonable doubt, at least not through science, or at least, not yet. Simply because atheism is gaining popularity does not justify its righteousness, just like Christianity's popularity in the past did not justify its righteousness.

    I hope you don't feel attacked by this; that is not my intention in the least.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
    Posts
    7
    Years
  • Congratulations you have once again ignored the whole point of my argument. We do not know. We cannot know. My point is exactly that neither theists nor atheists have any semblance of any evidence at all to support their beliefs - and despite what you claim atheism is a belief and nothing more until you can back it up with something. You're literally as bad as each other.

    You've also once again gone right ahead and continued with your "disregard=assume as false" talk even though I have at this point repeatedly explained why this is wrong. You literally are doing everything you claim I'm doing and your only evidence for your position is that the opposition has the same amount of evidence you do.

    I'm sorry that you feel upset, but when you bring emotions into a debate that's pretty much bound to happen.

    You've never explained to me why saying that the other side has no evidence is a bad argument. A God has never shown itself. If Jesus' second coming starts today I'll eat my shoe, but until then there is literally zero to suggest that a higher power exists except 'what if'. That is why I don't believe in a God - I don't believe in stories and ideas, I believe in facts and well supported theories.

    And I hate to be the guy who goes back to Google definitions over and over, but:

    Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

    Atheism is the lack of belief in something that isn't proven. If you want to take the way I said it and somehow make that mean I have prove that God doesn't exist (which is still absolutely ridiculous, see positive and negative claims, which you refuse to address), go ahead.

    But, by definition, atheism is a lack of a belief. If atheism is a belief then bald is a hair colour and health is a disease. You see the difference? You can even Google this, it is rather widely accepted and most sites will tell you what I'm telling you. Atheism is not a belief because it is a negative claim, and until you address my stance on positive and negative claims, you've not really any argument. This just turns into a back and forth of me telling you why I don't think atheists share the burden of proof (with actual reasons why), and you ignoring those reasons telling me how absolutely obvious it is.

    Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

    - Bertrand Russel, 1952. Is he wrong? Well his teapot is a well known analogy and the guy has his own Wikipedia page, so at least give my point of view some respect instead of acting like I'm just obviously wrong. Give Russel some credit. :P

    Also, can you answer my question? Where's the evidence of God? You keep telling me that both sides need to provide evidence. So, um, where's yours then? It seems like you're putting a double standard on me here.
     
    25,530
    Posts
    12
    Years
  • Bertrand Russel, 1952. Is he wrong? Well his teapot is a well known analogy and the guy has his own Wikipedia page, so at least give my point of view some respect instead of acting like I'm just obviously wrong. Give Russel some credit. :P

    I'll do you the fairness of looking into him, never heard of him before. As for giving your point of view respect, I'm not disrespecting your point of view. The entire point of everything I have said, as I keep telling you, is that it is impossible to confirm or deny either the atheistic or theistic point of view. If I were to act like atheists are automatically wrong I'd be completely disregarding my own beliefs. Now to share a teapot-related analogy of my own

    "Pot, this is the Kettle. You're black." I'm assuming unlike my ignorance of Mr. Russel you're probably familiar with that saying (unless it's not as common in your country?)

    Also, can you answer my question? Where's the evidence of God? You keep telling me that both sides need to provide evidence. So, um, where's yours then? It seems like you're putting a double standard on me here.

    But I'm not on the side against atheism? I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't have to provide evidence because my entire perspective is that there is no evidence and until there is I think any explanation is as good as the other.

    You'll have to excuse me for not responding to the first half of your post, I have no desire to go back around the same loop over and over where we both continuously point out the same things.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
    Posts
    7
    Years
  • I'll do you the fairness of looking into him, never heard of him before. As for giving your point of view respect, I'm not disrespecting your point of view. The entire point of everything I have said, as I keep telling you, is that it is impossible to confirm or deny either the atheistic or theistic point of view. If I were to act like atheists are automatically wrong I'd be completely disregarding my own beliefs. Now to share a teapot-related analogy of my own.

    The idea that Bertrand Russel purported is that the atheistic point of view is simply the denial of the religious point of view. It doesn't need evidence to support it. No, you can't outright confirm or deny either atheism or theism, just like you can't outright confirm that there is a teapot orbiting the Sun. That doesn't mean you start telling me "well you cannot confirm or deny either that there is a teapot orbiting the Sun or there isn't a teapot orbiting the Sun, so we'll just leave it up to speculation". The scientific community would instantly deny the idea of a teapot orbiting the Sun if I tried to publish a paper on it, just like it would instantly deny the idea of a God if I published a paper saying "A higher power is real". Unless of course I found empirical evidence, which as of right now does not exist.

    As for the respect thing, it's mostly the way you don't quote or respond to my reasons for actually believing atheists don't require any burden of proof for their denial of an idea, and instead respond with something along the lines of "I've already said this is wrong stop ignoring me". I'm not ignoring it, I'm disagreeing with it with a counterargument.

    "Pot, this is the Kettle. You're black." I'm assuming unlike my ignorance of Mr. Russel you're probably familiar with that saying (unless it's not as common in your country?)

    Nope. Never heard it in my life. Google seems to think it's just another way for you to say "you're doing what you say I'm doing" without any supporting evidence though, so whatever.

    But I'm not on the side against atheism? I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't have to provide evidence because my entire perspective is that there is no evidence and until there is I think any explanation is as good as the other.



    You'll have to excuse me for not responding to the first half of your post, I have no desire to go back around the same loop over and over where we both continuously point out the same things.

    What, like positive and negative statements, which you consistently ignore to the point where I wonder if it's possible to be allergic to words? Or the part where I counter your misinformation by taking the consensus actually established in the field of religious debate and putting it right in front of you? Of course, you won't actually tell me which of your points I'm ignoring (or when you do, it's completely ignoring my actual responses to those points).

    Is this whole thread going to be the game where we both keep calling each other out for doing what they're accusing the other of? Supporting evidence is important and I'm giving it to you constantly. Every time you say "you're ignoring x", I give you my opinion on that thing and you go all quiet. You rotate between "you're ignoring x" and "you're ignoring all my points". You're specific in one post and then vague in the next post so you don't have to respond to my response. It's rather bothersome.

    And you're going to respond to this post, possibly without even quoting this part, with something along the lines of "I'm not even responding to this nonsense/it'll just be going around in circles". Well I'm not doing that, despite you consistently ignoring everything I say, ignoring me putting my counter arguments in front of you (positive and negative statements) as you repeat the same argument (you have burden of proof too because you're making a claim) which I have already challenged. You just don't respond to the challenge.
     

    Somewhere_

    i don't know where
    4,494
    Posts
    8
    Years
  • Do you believe in God?
    I am sort of mixed at the moment and confused. Idk.
    Should people believe in God?
    If they want to. It doesnt affect me. It had some individual practicalities such as hope.
    Do you think there is evidence in a God?
    yes, but i need more research and do more reasoning on both sides of the spectrum
    Is religion good?
    It really depends. killing or hurting people for a religion? No. But in terms of keeping a high-trust and virtuous society, yes (depending on the faith). Of course this can be achieved with other secular philosophies.
    Does religion have any value to society?
    For virtue and high-trust, yes. For example, some Christian values are practically very good while others aren't. For example, Christianity's stress on family is important in my opinion (among others like helping the poor), but the homosexuality is a sin part not so much.
    Has religion ever had anything of value to society?
    Value is subjective, so it depends. I think religion has played an important role practically speaking, but whether the net positives outweigh the net negatives, I dont know.

    tbh i dont think i explained very well and I dont really have a strong opinion on this. I need to look more into things and think about it more. There really isn't anything perfect i guess.
     
    10,769
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • Did you know that using mathematical logic, we assume something is true if it cannot be proven false, simply because there is a possibility that it could be true? Furthermore, science is not faultless by any means, and even things that have been proven correct cannot be certified to be 100% true, because it is based on observation and not pure logic. If you wanted to prove that a higher power does not exist and be 100% certain of it, I defy you to do so mathematically. ;) Otherwise it's futile to stand from a position saying that science has proven that God doesn't exist- if he did, would some silly instruments of mankind be able to detect him?- especially since scientists have said no such thing. Some of them go so far as to believe in God themselves. Therefore, your standpoint is invalid and the burden of proof lies on you and Gimmepie equally. As he has already mentioned, atheism and theism are both beliefs in their own right, and neither belief can be proven to be right beyond reasonable doubt, at least not through science, or at least, not yet. Simply because atheism is gaining popularity does not justify its righteousness, just like Christianity's popularity in the past did not justify its righteousness.

    I hope you don't feel attacked by this; that is not my intention in the least.
    I want to second this statement, but with the added caveat which is that there are different kinds of atheism and some of them are not belief systems in the same way that religions are. If one atheist claims there is no god that is in a way more of a belief system than an atheist who never thinks about or has any opinion on the existence of possibility of higher beings. In that way all people are atheists up to some point in their life when the idea is introduced to them (if it is) and even then some may not let it have any bearing on their worldview.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
    Posts
    7
    Years
  • If one atheist claims there is no god that is in a way more of a belief system

    Seems as much of a belief system as "there is no teapot orbiting the Sun between Earth and Mars" to me. I really struggle to see the difference between refusing to acknowledge the possibility of a God and refusing to acknowledge the possibility of any other crazy, random idea out of nowhere, like invisible pink unicorns or the world's most powerful people secretly being lizards. The only difference seems to be that people call two of the above ridiculous and stupid, yet the other is somehow a belief system that requires evidence to support it, otherwise we just say "welp, we don't know either way then."
     
    10,769
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • Seems as much of a belief system as "there is no teapot orbiting the Sun between Earth and Mars" to me. I really struggle to see the difference between refusing to acknowledge the possibility of a God and refusing to acknowledge the possibility of any other crazy, random idea out of nowhere, like invisible pink unicorns or the world's most powerful people secretly being lizards. The only difference seems to be that people call two of the above ridiculous and stupid, yet the other is somehow a belief system that requires evidence to support it, otherwise we just say "welp, we don't know either way then."

    Well, it's more of a disbelief system, one that's based more in the ideas of science. It's like saying "It doesn't exist if it can't be proven to exist" which is just a simpler, less nuanced statement than "We can't prove one way or the other that something exists or not because of lack of evidence so we take no stance on it".
     

    Cariad

    world.search(you);
    1,347
    Posts
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    • Seen Oct 25, 2023
    do you believe in a god?
    i'm a celtic pagan so i believe in our pantheon, my patroness is cerridwen and she's the goddess i choose to dedicate my practice to. when i was younger i believed in the christian god, but i don't believe in his existence anymore.

    should people believe in a god?
    if they want to; is it really for me to go up to someone and tell them 'hey, you shouldn't believe in this'. honestly when it comes down to it, believing in god is a personal choice and it isn't fair to say what someone else should and shouldn't believe.

    do you think there is evidence of god?
    well i could say 'absolutely, my goddess talks to me!' but i'd be lying; she doesn't. i don't think anyone has any proof that any god of any religion exists, honestly, other than faith and personal feeling, but if they do i'd like to see it! that'd be interesting.

    is religion good?
    yes and no. yes bc it provides lots of people around the world with meaning in life and a purpose in their endeavors, no because it's literally lead to the genocide of more than millions of people throughout history. modern religion, imo, is a lot... 'better' than old religion... if that makes sense.

    does religion have anything of value to offer to society?
    to society? no, not really. other than order and a common cause, i suppose.

    has religion ever had anything of value to offer to society?
    my instinct is telling me to say no, but i can't justify why.
     

    curiousnathan

    Starry-eyed
    7,753
    Posts
    14
    Years
  • I do believe in a God or some higher power. I cannot fathom for a second how a universe so intricate and complex yet so harmonious and collaborative could be created by pure chance. However, the more I think of it, I fall into the trap of "if God created the universe, then who created God? And who created that being...?" .

    Whether or not people believe in a God is up to them. Should they? No. One of the irrefutably frustrating things in life are those that force others to believe (or at least attempt to) in a God or a particular religion. People should be able to believe in whatever they wish (within reason).

    I'd argue that the intricacy of the universe, how absolutely everything seems to work uncannily well together; almost too well is some evidence albeit all not that strong. This world was engineered, in my belief. It's not the most conclusive of evidence, I know, but for me it's at least some. Other than that, artefacts such as the Bible, Quran and other depictions of God or prophets are definitely not evidence in my eyes.

    Religion has the capacity to be good. Whether it is or not is dependent on the situation, the people who teach it and their purpose. It can be an incredibly powerful tool, being able to both divide and unite people. It can manipulate, it can coerce and trap true, but it can also inform, inspire and motivate.

    The basics of every religion that is, be good does have value to society. It preaches values that many of us regard as common sense but forget to actually develop or implement into our lives. It's important to remember that despite how often we see it divide people it does have positive value.
     

    Elysieum

    Requiescat en pace.
    258
    Posts
    10
    Years
  • Do you believe in a god?
    Nope.

    Should people believe in a god?
    I don't think so. In my life I've seen faith used as a talisman often. Supernatural claims are unhelpful at best. I don't think anyone's mind should be devoted to non-thinking.

    Do you think there is evidence of god?
    Of course not. That such a great number of religionists perform desperate mental acrobatics in order to square away a place for their god in this world is indication enough to me.

    Is religion good?
    No. It is a tool. Such a device is not good or bad inherently. Only the hand that controls it is good or bad.

    Does religion have anything of value to offer to society?
    I don't think so. We are privileged to live in the most enlightened age that there has ever been. This moment is the most modern moment. We have such a vast understanding of the universe now (that is not to say our understanding is satisfactory yet), that religion seems to be an awkward blight to our intelligence at this point.

    Has religion ever had anything of value to offer to society?
    Definitely, yes. Religion supplied so many answers to difficult questions for people who didn't have anything else to go on, even if those answers were fabricated. Religion provided solace. It also installed communities in the world. Divisive communities, but communities nonetheless.
     

    KingMarz

    Da Reckless Indigo
    29
    Posts
    8
    Years
  • I mean no offense to anyone with my opinion but it is MY opinion so dont let it hurt your feelings.

    Do you believe in a God?

    Yes, not the religious cloud man tho, i believe more that there is a greater conscious energy all creatures share that presides over the laws of nature and existence. I am God and so is every other living organism, of course no one is shooting lightening and its ignorant to think that but we all have the energy of God in us we were created in his image correct? The story of jesus is nothing more that an outline of what every human can attain through proper meditation. God is energy and energy is infinite, out of chaos energy creates order without order chaos cant exist so energy cant exist without either.

    Should people believe in a God?

    Everyone should have some type of structural belief system (even if it has no god) in order to process the experiences we encounter on this mortal plane.

    Do you think there is evidence of God?

    Everywhere, Look at the sun and the fact that it can warm several planets at one time we're like 2(?) lightyears from it and its still blinding. Look at the fact that we have the ability to master any craft just by repetitively doing it over and over. Where did the human race start? Not from just two freakin people and if it did there was a lot of incest going on lets be real. We were either created in a mass by a higher being or we came from another world killed off the dinosaurs and in habited this world because we couldnt have live simultaneously with them or we'd be the ones extinct.

    Is religion good?

    Religion is man made and the greatest form of mind control besides the MK Ultra, control based off a fear of the unknown and when you add the simple minded sheep who follow religion blindly you get the atrocity we have today, jesus freaks who throw the bible (which is SO full of inconsistencies is sad) in your face and wont even bat an eye at any other form of belief.

    Does religion have anything of value to offer to society?

    Today no not at all, all it is now is a cash cow. Wool over the eyes of the blind deaf and dumb masses.

    Has religion ever had anything of value to offer to society?

    Principles, a sense of self worth, structure, order. I dont follow religion but i can say that some parts of it do correlate to reality and helps you understand certain aspects of the journey of life.
     
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    Dracowyn

    Hell's Traffic Accident
    413
    Posts
    13
    Years
  • Everywhere, Look at the sun and the fact that it can warm several planets at one time we're like 2(?) lightyears from it and its still blinding.

    Um, the sun is about 8 light minutes away. Not light years. The sun does have a gravitational field that reaches a little under 2 light years in all directions, which is the edge of the Oort Cloud.

    Also what makes you think humans killed dinosaurs? Non-avian dinosaurs died out 64 million years ago. The first human-like ancestors appeared about 5 million years ago in the fossil record. That's a gap of almost 60 million years there.

    Heck even if we hypothetically did, why didn't we kill the birds then too since they're one of the many branches of dinosaurs that existed back then?
     

    Lapis

    ✿ Flower Child ✿
    375
    Posts
    9
    Years
  • Do you believe in a God? I personally am not sure God exists. So no I do not believe in a God.
    Should people believe in a God? If they want to. Who am I to prevent people from believing in what they want to believe in?
    Do you think there is evidence of God? I'm not sure. I usually rely on science to explain the world around us.
    Is religion good? It causes a lot of grief and wrong in the world. Wars generally are caused by the act of religion. Actions that are hateful are usually cause by religion as well. On the other hand, religion can be a good thing if you spread its message how it is supposed to be. People should let other people live their lives and do so without judgement. It is an issue that some people just do not do which is unfortunate.
    Does religion have anything of value to offer to society? It brings people together and that's about it. Relgion does not offer anything of value when it comes to politics and it should stay out of it. Because this causes a society to go backwards.
    Has religion ever had anything of value to offer to society? I guess it has but it also has caused a lot of grief and bloodshed.
     

    KingMarz

    Da Reckless Indigo
    29
    Posts
    8
    Years
  • Um, the sun is about 8 light minutes away. Not light years. The sun does have a gravitational field that reaches a little under 2 light years in all directions, which is the edge of the Oort Cloud.

    Also what makes you think humans killed dinosaurs? Non-avian dinosaurs died out 64 million years ago. The first human-like ancestors appeared about 5 million years ago in the fossil record. That's a gap of almost 60 million years there.

    Heck even if we hypothetically did, why didn't we kill the birds then too since they're one of the many branches of dinosaurs that existed back then?

    1
    I was guessing how far the sun was from us not being specific, my point was that its so far but can still heat the planet and is still blinding from that distance which is evidence of a higher energy or power being able to sustain that type of heat and it not become unstable, you sure cant walk to the sun can you?

    2
    Did i specify that humans killed the dinos? I said we couldve came from another world and wiped them out so we could inhabit the planet. Just because a fossil dates back doesnt mean anything if you only go off of what youre told and not research further how can you really say its fact? Just like christopher colombus discovering america, thats whats taught to kids but looking further theres no way its true.

    Why kill the birds they mostly were herbivores and posed no threat to our existence but the carnivores and most omnivores had to go because of course were made of meat

    I like how you picked at certain parts of what i said and the most unimportant parts at that, its my opinion that ive based off collective research and my own experiences so i dont really see your point...
     

    Dracowyn

    Hell's Traffic Accident
    413
    Posts
    13
    Years
  • 1
    I was guessing how far the sun was from us not being specific, my point was that its so far but can still heat the planet and is still blinding from that distance which is evidence of a higher energy or power being able to sustain that type of heat and it not become unstable, you sure cant walk to the sun can you?

    2
    Did i specify that humans killed the dinos? I said we couldve came from another world and wiped them out so we could inhabit the planet. Just because a fossil dates back doesnt mean anything if you only go off of what youre told and not research further how can you really say its fact? Just like christopher colombus discovering america, thats whats taught to kids but looking further theres no way its true.

    Why kill the birds they mostly were herbivores and posed no threat to our existence but the carnivores and most omnivores had to go because of course were made of meat

    I like how you picked at certain parts of what i said and the most unimportant parts at that, its my opinion that ive based off collective research and my own experiences so i dont really see your point...

    1) Still, 2 light years? That's halfway the next star. It's like guessing the next gas station is million kilometers away o3o

    The sun works on nuclear fusion and is superheated plasma so no you can't walk on it. Since it's, well, plasma which originated from a cloud of hydrogen collapsing and the pressure and gravity rising so much that nuclear fusion started. The sun isn't stable at all. If our planet's magnetic field would disapear like Mars' did the entire surface would be fried by the radiation.

    Of course the rays reach us. It's all sorts of light in different spectrums and we're not that far away that the infrared radiation wouldn't reach us properly.

    2) You implied it yes.

    By human fossils I mean the first ape-like hominids that came down from the trees. Thinking humans existed 65 million years ago is like believing Neanderthals had supercomputers. Yes we've been looking for fossils all the time and the only mammals that show up from the late cretaceous are rat-like marsupials that didn't get bigger than your average badger.

    Birds originated from the Maniraptora clade. Which were primarily carnivores. Most early birds were actually carnivores and omnivores. Nor were all dinosaurs huge (look at the dromaeosauridae which were still flourishing at the late cretaceous), so a lot of them wouldn't pose a threat. Do all mammals pose a threat to us nowadays?

    I picked those parts cause those are the parts I really disagree about. I'm not some crazy person who wants to convert you or anything. If you want to believe in some greater conscious or something, that's not my problem, it's not something that can be disproven (even though thats a probatio diabolica).

    However I do have a problem with it if you get some scientific facts wrong. Especially if it's in the range of my huge interests (prehistoric life and the universe). I didn't type that post to annoy you or mock your beliefs, just to point out you were wrong about those things.
     

    KingMarz

    Da Reckless Indigo
    29
    Posts
    8
    Years
  • We're getting off topic though we're talking about the belief of god and the byproducts of religion, i wasnt exactly trying to boast any scientific prowess im just stating concepts that correlate to my opinion on the matter. When i said unstable i was referring to the fact that the sun isnt melting us whenever we go outside. The oldest known human fossil was found in Africa whether humans originated there or landed there remains to be seen.

    I didnt take offense i just think you looked too deep into the science part of my post and felt you needed to educate which is cool but it deviated a bit from the central point. I enjoy an intellectual debate as much as im sure you do.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
    Posts
    7
    Years
  • The oldest known human fossil was found in Africa whether humans originated there or landed there remains to be seen.

    The dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago. The oldest known human fossil is about 7 million years old. If that fossil landed on Earth, it would be way after dinosaurs.

    But let's say that 65 million years ago, humanity's ancestors landed on Earth and killed the dinosaurs. First off, this creature hadn't even yet split off into humans and chimpanzees - that wouldn't happen until waaay later. So the creature you are supposing landed on Earth will have most likely been weaker and dumber than a chimpanzee. Heck, it wouldn't even be anything like a chimpanzee. Probably just some small mammal or something.

    Your hypothesis is so incredibly unlikely it's not even worth considering.
     
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