Simplifying the games?

[pkmin3033]

This might be the reason why the VC pokémon are compatible with gen 6. They might even remove the whole IV/DV/EV thing. But I hope they actually won't. Because it will be a major kick in the nuts to everyone who breeded thousands and thousands to get the perfect shiny they wanted.

Removing IVs and EVs would utterly destroy the metagame, and considering there are still tournaments and whatnot being held I can't see them removing anything like that; the backlash would be phenomenal. After putting in the effort to make EV training easier and more accessible through Super Training minigames, it'd be a bit of a step backwards to suddenly do away with the whole concept, too. At most, I can see a function that lets you choose whether you want these things on or not, but outright removal? Unlikely.

 

[Shiny]

Removing IVs and EVs would utterly destroy the metagame, and considering there are still tournaments and whatnot being held I can't see them removing anything like that; the backlash would be phenomenal. After putting in the effort to make EV training easier and more accessible through Super Training minigames, it'd be a bit of a step backwards to suddenly do away with the whole concept, too. At most, I can see a function that lets you choose whether you want these things on or not, but outright removal? Unlikely.

I agree with this statement wholly.

The introduction of EVs and IVs have allowed older fans to take a more complicated and in-depth approach to playing the game. If they ever chose to remove them, a lot of fans would be rightfully uproaring.

 

[Sopheria]

It sounds almost like he's planning to revert 7th gen to the 1st gen data format...getting rid of EV yields, merging the special stats into one, maybe even removing IVs. Idk, Pokémon really isn't that complicated at all, so I can't even imagine what they could do to simplify it further and still maintain its enjoyability ~_~

 

[JP]

I don't know if I like any of this. The idea of removing or merging types is an absolute horrible idea. Pokemon battles are after all strategy battles, and dumbing it down to have less types and combinations seems like a silly thing to do and potentially could ruin the fun of battles. I have a hard time seeing them take that sort of route if they do "simplify" the games.

Same thing with the EVs and IVs. These things are pretty much what make your Pokemon YOUR Pokemon. If anything, adding in another layer, perhaps that isn't directly linked to battling, would only improve the idea of a Pokemon specifically being yours.

I think that if they do simplify things, it'll be mostly the story and perhaps less valuable things like Pokemon Amie and whatnot. I sure hope they don't dumb down the moves or get rid of some though, but in the end that's something I could ultimately live with. I'd say there's gonna be a very thin line, if there one at all, between simplifying and and making things too easy/horrible.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

I don't know if I like any of this. The idea of removing or merging types is an absolute horrible idea. Pokemon battles are after all strategy battles, and dumbing it down to have less types and combinations seems like a silly thing to do and potentially could ruin the fun of battles. I have a hard time seeing them take that sort of route if they do "simplify" the games.

Same thing with the EVs and IVs. These things are pretty much what make your Pokemon YOUR Pokemon. If anything, adding in another layer, perhaps that isn't directly linked to battling, would only improve the idea of a Pokemon specifically being yours.

I think that if they do simplify things, it'll be mostly the story and perhaps less valuable things like Pokemon Amie and whatnot. I sure hope they don't dumb down the moves or get rid of some though, but in the end that's something I could ultimately live with. I'd say there's gonna be a very thin line, if there one at all, between simplifying and and making things too easy/horrible.

They could get rid of the moves that doesn't do anything at all...like Splash, etc. I think that they introduced several celebratory moves in Gen VI for some event mons, but they do nothing but look pretty...

 

[Hikamaru]

They could get rid of the moves that doesn't do anything at all...like Splash, etc. I think that they introduced several celebratory moves in Gen VI for some event mons, but they do nothing but look pretty...

Yeah get rid of the more useless moves, mainly ones that get mentioned a lot in Top 10 Worst Moves lists on YouTube.

 

[Master of Memes]

Here is the most reasonable thing that would happen
Tackle and Scratch - replaced with Melee attack
Pure & Huge Power - replaced with Extra power
Pokédex organized by Pichu as 000, Pikachu as 001, starters, regional gimmicks, and the rest by environment up until the Legendaries.
No HMs

 

[pkmin3033]

I think no HMs is a very real possibility going forward if simplification is going to equate to removing "unnecessary" things, because they can just as easily replace obstacles with roadblocks (because they serve essentially the same purpose) or some kind of all-purpose item that allows you to move boulders and the like around for puzzles, and you could hire rideable Pokemon to traverse the ocean and waterfalls etc.

 

[Hikamaru]

I do agree that removing HMs might contribute to simplicity. And maybe change some of the better ones in battle like Waterfall and Surf to TMs as a result.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Found this comment in regards to "simplifying" the game by removing the IV system:

Spoiler:

So now that the new gen is approaching, I'm seeing a lot of the obligatory "IVs should go" vs. "IVs should stay" arguments cropping up again. I already briefly outlined in my post on Cyber Sleuth why that game serves as an excellent argument against IVs, and it saves time and takes the luck out of the equation. Essentially in this era of increasing convenience for the player, IVs are a stale old 90s mechanic that should die a death.

Some standard arguments in favour of IVs and why they are bad

>"It keeps each Poke unique"
No it doesn't. You can potentially acquire Pokemon with identical IVs, natures and all the rest. The uniqueness already exists in more gratifying ways such as a nickname, date caught/hatched, and other factors like shininess/personal attachment.

As soon as you set foot in a competitive environment, everything has the same relevant IVs, because players have bred them that way.

>"It's representative of genes"
Which is fine but conflicts greatly with the pro-convenience referred to previously. It does nothing now beyond deciding hidden power and forcing the player to spend time acquiring a competitively usable mon for online or battle facilities. There are already many better ways in which flavour/worldbuilding is done in Pokemon such as non-gameplay things like the Pokedex text and NPCs. This is better than forcing a mechanic on players.

>"You're just lazy"
And what if I am? I have a damn job, I don't want to breed all the time, I want to use what time I have to actually play.

It reminds me of weapon durability in Fire Emblem. Everyone said it was a series staple, but tradition for tradition's sake is one of the worst reasons to do anything, and once it was gone, many people then found the more inventive balancing better and encouraging of different equipment setups and strategy. Pokemon should take the same approach to IVs.

EVs are fine, they're good for creating varied sets and can be quite interesting. But I believe the system needs to be even more transparent, as good a move as the Super Training graph was.

tl;dr IVs do nothing helpful for either casual or core players and only slow down the process of acquiring viable mons at an expert level.

An IV debate broke, and the same user I quoted had to calm down the flames:

Woah okay guess I started something here lol. I've IV bred plenty of times myself tbh and have a couple of boxes full of the guys, I was just explaining that I don't think it adds anything at this point. Digimon created a game where you don't have to acquire the same thing multiple times for it to be competitively viable, I just think that's better in the modern era. I get that some ppl do actually like the process.

 

[Esper]

I think no HMs is a very real possibility going forward if simplification is going to equate to removing "unnecessary" things, because they can just as easily replace obstacles with roadblocks (because they serve essentially the same purpose) or some kind of all-purpose item that allows you to move boulders and the like around for puzzles, and you could hire rideable Pokemon to traverse the ocean and waterfalls etc.

As much as we all find HMs annoying, they are fairly simple. At some point in the game you hit a roadblock (boulder, water, whatever) and you have to beat a gym leader or whatever then you get the HM and you can move on. Sure, it could be changed in any number of ways, but I know that when I first started playing Pokemon I didn't really care that I had to use HMs. It's just that we've gotten used to complaining about them and wanting to have a 'perfect' team that gets muddied by having HM slaves. I mean, I'd be happy if HMs were removed, but I'd be satisfied if they did something different with the idea (letting existing moves replace HMs, like say letting any Fighting move replace Strength, any Flying move replace Fly, etc.) and I'd still not be sad if they stayed like they are.

 

[pkmin3033]

As much as we all find HMs annoying, they are fairly simple. At some point in the game you hit a roadblock (boulder, water, whatever) and you have to beat a gym leader or whatever then you get the HM and you can move on. Sure, it could be changed in any number of ways, but I know that when I first started playing Pokemon I didn't really care that I had to use HMs. It's just that we've gotten used to complaining about them and wanting to have a 'perfect' team that gets muddied by having HM slaves. I mean, I'd be happy if HMs were removed, but I'd be satisfied if they did something different with the idea (letting existing moves replace HMs, like say letting any Fighting move replace Strength, any Flying move replace Fly, etc.) and I'd still not be sad if they stayed like they are.

That's the thing, they're not so much difficult to understand as they are highly irritating and intrusive for some. Simplification is as much about removing those elements that interfere with freedom of choice and enjoyment of a game as it is making something easier to understand and access, and if the amount of complaining is anything to go by, HMs are highly intrusive, because they're mandatory for progression and most of them are utterly useless, making them undesirable moves. In a game that lets you choose more or less what Pokemon you pick and what moves you give them out of the selection on offer, people understandably don't like being forced to use specific moves at some point or another. It's never bothered me all that much personally, but I can see how it would irritate a lot of people, and Game Freak can't not be aware of this.

I think doing something different with the idea would a great step forward, but would that make life easier, or more difficult? How would you know which Pokemon could use Strength, or Cut? What if you didn't want to use that sort of Pokemon? It'd be swapping one system for another really, and in some senses it'd be worse for its ambiguity. HMs, for all their flaws, are very clear things. I think they'd opt for removal or remaining as is, rather than introducing a new system everyone would have to come to terms with when they're trying to make things easier and more accessible; it seems counter-productive.

I only thought of having interactive Pokemon for things like Surf and Waterfall because of the rideable Pokemon introduced with the Kalos games; it seems like something they might want to keep in and expand upon to make it a viable alternative, meaning we keep the puzzles and whatnot that rely on HMs but don't have to waste moveslots on our Pokemon if we don't want to in order to accomodate that.

 

[Esper]

-snip-

All fair points.

Your suggestions or removing HMs or having extra Pokemon available for travel purposes would seem to further separate the travel/puzzle elements of the game from the battling elements. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it would mean moving toward a game where your Pokemon party only has relevance to the battling and not much else.

 

[pkmin3033]

All fair points.

Your suggestions or removing HMs or having extra Pokemon available for travel purposes would seem to further separate the travel/puzzle elements of the game from the battling elements. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it would mean moving toward a game where your Pokemon party only has relevance to the battling and not much else.

I'm not entirely sure if it would be a good thing or not either, although separating those two elements would be one potential method of simplifying the games; all you would need to worry about would be your team's battling capabilities, and it would result in greater freedom of choice. The two options aren't mutually exclusive, either - you could still retain HMs and have Pokemon available for HM purposes available if you didn't feel like using them in your party. Just one idea I guess.


Honestly, I don't like the idea of outright removing things for the sake of simplicity. Pokemon is a series that doesn't change very much in terms of core gameplay; it's the smaller changes that have slowly developed the games over the years to become more complex. A lot of these changes have improved the games in leaps and bounds, and removing them now would undo a great deal of progress.

If they absolutely must do this sort of thing, I think it'd be better to provide options like Super Training, which improve ease of access of these features and streamline them for more "casual" audiences who aren't interested in spending hours training. It's like the old competitive battling debate about whether or not it's acceptable to cheat to obtain these Pokemon that are tournament-worthy, because you don't have the time or motivation to train but still want to enjoy that side of the game.

Cutting out those prerequisites with options isn't a bad thing at all, as long as they're just that - options. It's never a bad thing to cater to a wider variety of players, just as long as it isn't to the exclusion of others who are just fine with things the way they are.

tl;dr simplification is good if it's optional, in my opinion

 

[captainfez3]

I hope they get rid of IVs, EVs, and make nature more of a flavor thing and not a competitive aspect. I said this in a thread a while ago, but I hate how playing online or competitively has become an enormous time sink and impossible for everyone who isn't die hard. I remember back in the days of Blue, I could walk north of Pallet town and find a Pidgey, singular, catch him and train him into a Pidgeot to rival all other Pidgeots. There was no need to catch 200 of them to find the nature I wanted, let alone having to try and breed to max out his stats or whatever.

I've honestly never followed the IV/EV rules and how they influence how Pokemon grow, I just know you can min/max to get a stronger Pokemon in the end and I did not like the concept in the slightest. The whole point of the series was about forming a bond with your Pokemon and having that bond of trust be all you needed to conquer another trainer (keeping in mind type match ups as well I guess). Now, you have to breed a genetic freak if you want to win. I mean, doesn't this game have enough unsavory aspects already that we can afford to get rid of the "bred to kill" trope lol

edit: For all those saying it's ok if it's optional... if they change things, they won't be optional, by and large. Especially if they touch mechanics. You obviously cannot have two players fight each other if they are using Pokemon that follow different sets of game rules. It just ain't gonna happen. It's either all in or it's all for naught. I'll be especially interested to see how they take things forward. I'm really excited now, especially since we can transfer Pokemon from R/B/Y. I mean I know for G/S you just had a random gender assigned to your Pokemon along with anything else, but this might be them prepping for big changes to the mechanics. Long shot, but if true it would be a big plus for me.

 

[Sceptile14]

There's simplifying and then there's over simplifying...
Simplifying through getting rid of stuff like IVs is slightly pointless and just takes away from that extra aspect of the game. Additionally, that would piss a lot of people off (not me in particularly, but a lot of competitive battlers). They're really only a problem if you want to make it a problem.
I think it's pretty strange actually; when I first read the title of this thread, I thought that it would be about how the games are becoming simplified. X/Y were made too easy, and I wish, in that regard, that it would be made more like it was in the past. Some of the gym leaders in X/Y were so unmemorable because I ended up just OHKOing all their Pokemon.
So yeah, if anything I think the games should be less simplified. IVs and everything else associated with competitive are staples really, and changing some moves into one? It's really just a redundant change that doesn't do much. I think, what I would simplify, is actually game direction. X/Y were based on genes... and a 3D map. Some Pokemon are based on more than one thing. Is that not just overdoing it? I don't mean to sound like one of those new gen bashers, but I prefer it where there is an obvious that a pokemon has to a real life thing. Ghosts and things like that are different, but actual animal based Pokemon need to look more like animals. That, is what I would simplify. Not designs per say, but what they base Pokemon off.

 

[Arylett Charnoa]

I'm seeing some people worrying about moves being removed, but I think when most of us say this, we're talking about moves that nobody even cares about. Who uses Comet Punch, for instance? And somebody previously did say a few gimmick event moves were introduced in Gen VI, so those wouldn't affect competitive play either.

Whilst I myself agree on the side of removing all of that stuff like IVs and EVs, I wouldn't say it would be a good move for Game Freak simply because of the backlash from the competitive community. I don't want to hamper the game for others because of my own preferences. Seriously thinking that they're going to remove these things is silly. They're not. They've been increasingly catering to the competitive scene in these past few generations. Why would they throw away such a profitable demographic? One that stays interested in their game long after they've finished the story? It is simply illogical because with the system they have now, casual players can still enjoy the games simultaneously with competitive players, even if we find it difficult to find someone who just wants to battle non-competitively online or dislike the systems on principle.

As for compatibility with RBY, I think they'll just have something that converts older Pokemon into the more complex data from the later games, rather than making the games simpler just for the sake of those who own these games. I don't think this really proves anything on the side of the kind of simplicity people like me prefer.

The most likely scenario is that the games will continue to become more and more complicated and only simple in the sense of convenience. But this will be convenience for little, insignificant things that someone like me wouldn't care about. (Like making it simpler to find good IVs.) I doubt anything, even the most useless of moves or abilities, will be cut out. Maybe in the far off future where Pokemon becomes so large that it is unmanageable, but we're not at that point yet. Even though it kind of feels like that to me sometimes.

 

[Ultan]

I would be in favour of removing IVs (or assuming that every Pokemon has 31 in all stats). Have a Hidden Power tutor/changer in game to let you decide which Hidden Power you want. In game 30 IVs vs. 31 IVs at level 50 is the same so the extra IV doesn't matter.

The only thing this would do is make moves like Foul Play stronger and Gyro Ball weaker in most cases.

Would also not mind if moves like Splash were taken out of the game (if there are even other moves like it)

 

[Juice585]

All I really hope is that they trim "typical" moves of same typing down.

Tackle/Pound/Scratch/etc just becomes Tackle.
Bubble/Water Gun just becomes Bubble (because Bubble has a secondary effect)

Don't get rid of ExtremeSpeed or Aqua Jet for Quick Attack for example though, because they're all different. ES has extra priority, and priority moves of different TYPING should stay.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

Maybe they could change the IV system to 1-5 so that there'll will be less difference between what a Pokémon is born with, and perhaps increase the number of Ev's one can get. So while one is born with natural talents, training can narrow that gap.