Simplifying the games?

[TCB]

I see it both ways in not just what to simplify, but how to do so. For instance; when it comes to the plot we can all expect that if the boxart has a Legendary on it it's gonna be tied to the main plot. I for one want something different. So in that case yeah I would want the whole 'Legendary Plotline' of the past couple of Generations to be simplified. Do I want the overall presence of a plot in these games to be simplified? No.

I know this is Pokemon and story isn't as much of a strong suit but I would not object to a plot that you can dig your teeth into just a liiiiitle more than usual. Maybe have the plot revolve around the region itself and since Pokemon is involved have it on a grander scale rather than just plonk the version Legendary in there and call it a day.

 

[Vezyn]

First and foremost, I don't mind breeding for IVs and Nature, though it does feel like a needless aspect that could be replaced entirely by EV training or something similar.

One thing I'd like to see remedied or simplified is obtaining a competitive Legendary Pokémon, having to soft reset for 5+ IVs and the right nature is such a mind numbingly boring task that can take a very long time and a huge amount of fun out of the game imo.

If they added some way to modify IV values or maybe even breed legendaries (I know, blasphemy) I could live with IVs staying, but in their current form I can't see any good reason to keep them around.

There are definitely more interesting ways we could keep our pokemon unique.
I also feel that the removal or adjustment of IVs would make the competitive game more popular and accessible.

I'd like the removal of HMs, but I hope they keep all the types and moves.

 

[captainfez3]

Whilst I myself agree on the side of removing all of that stuff like IVs and EVs, I wouldn't say it would be a good move for Game Freak simply because of the backlash from the competitive community. I don't want to hamper the game for others because of my own preferences. Seriously thinking that they're going to remove these things is silly. They're not. They've been increasingly catering to the competitive scene in these past few generations. Why would they throw away such a profitable demographic? One that stays interested in their game long after they've finished the story? It is simply illogical because with the system they have now, casual players can still enjoy the games simultaneously with competitive players, even if we find it difficult to find someone who just wants to battle non-competitively online or dislike the systems on principle.

As for compatibility with RBY, I think they'll just have something that converts older Pokemon into the more complex data from the later games, rather than making the games simpler just for the sake of those who own these games. I don't think this really proves anything on the side of the kind of simplicity people like me prefer.

The most likely scenario is that the games will continue to become more and more complicated and only simple in the sense of convenience. But this will be convenience for little, insignificant things that someone like me wouldn't care about. (Like making it simpler to find good IVs.) I doubt anything, even the most useless of moves or abilities, will be cut out. Maybe in the far off future where Pokemon becomes so large that it is unmanageable, but we're not at that point yet. Even though it kind of feels like that to me sometimes.

I'm not so sure if they won't though. The competitive scene is probably not as major a component as you might think. I would say that most people who love and enjoy Pokemon play it in a "casual" sense (and I hate how fans of games will instinctively divide themselves into those two demographics, but such is life). From a monetary standpoint, Gamefreak doesn't really stand to lose anything; changing the underlying mechanics might upset people but if they enjoy the games, they will still play them. The main reason that the competitive players love all the breeding, training, and time investment involved in being in the top competitive scene is a simple (and honestly somewhat ugly) human drive; namely the joy of having something someone doesn't. And I don't mean to say they are all like that, but some obviously are. I've played a lot of people online that don't like to lose and it is just kind of the ugly truth about the situation that there is an "elite" mentality that pushes a lot of these players to do that. And it isn't in the true spirit of Pokemon where you want to "be the very best" but you want to crush everyone else.

Forgoing all that flowery talk, I do agree that for the most part, it is a nice system in the fact that you can play the game casually and enjoy it and play the game in the competitive way and still enjoy it. However, as online play becomes increasingly prevalent, I feel like something is going to have to give. I can pick up any modern online shooter, and I will at least be on a level playing field with my fellow players. I will get better with time as I learn the maps, weapon spawns, and unlock potential goodies, but I'm not going in and getting hammered because I haven't spent 200+ hours trying to get the right stats on my weapons or something like that. Even most MMOs are moving away from having very esoteric upgrade systems and instead streamlining character improvement, so that way you invest time to get better yes, but you don't have to spend inordinate amounts of time to get the exact right items to be viable. Interestingly enough, most people who decry those changes (I'm thinking of WoW specifically) are the people who consider themselves "hardcore" and look down upon "filthy casuals" who don't put in the crazy amounts of time to know the game inside out and dedicate their weekends to farming for the right stuff.

I feel that online attitude is something they should strive to not cultivate in Pokemon, because again, that flies directly in the face of the spirit of the whole thing. The easiest way to do that is make it so it isn't even present. That to me would be a brilliant step in making Pokemon a more fun online environment. I understand there are always going to be the "best" ways to play any game in a competitive sense, but I don't think an aspect of that should involve copious amounts of time. Again, I think the perfect system would be one that most closely mirrors the show. When I go out hunting for a Pidgey, I just want a male Pidgey, so I catch the first one I see and that is MY Pidgey. He has the exact same potential as any other Pidgey and if I train him hard enough, he can be as competitive as any other Pidgey.

That is what I want them to shoot for. I don't want to have to breed a million Pidgeys to get that one perfect one, I just want to use the one. And honestly, why would anyone want to keep the excessive breeding mechanic to begin with? What is fun about breeding eggs a million times? I think the fun of Pokemon comes from taking your favorites and battling against others favorites, seeing what moves they use, which Pokemon they like, etc. I mean, when it comes to competitive play anyway, I've wrecked a person who used 3 legendaries one time. Type match ups are still king in the game, so I say let's just get rid of the other stuff and focus on what's important. Give us new methods to train our Pokemon, give us contest, give us the PWT, and just make the game as full and vibrant as possible. That is what people want.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

I'm not so sure if they won't though. The competitive scene is probably not as major a component as you might think. I would say that most people who love and enjoy Pokemon play it in a "casual" sense (and I hate how fans of games will instinctively divide themselves into those two demographics, but such is life). From a monetary standpoint, Gamefreak doesn't really stand to lose anything; changing the underlying mechanics might upset people but if they enjoy the games, they will still play them. The main reason that the competitive players love all the breeding, training, and time investment involved in being in the top competitive scene is a simple (and honestly somewhat ugly) human drive; namely the joy of having something someone doesn't. And I don't mean to say they are all like that, but some obviously are. I've played a lot of people online that don't like to lose and it is just kind of the ugly truth about the situation that there is an "elite" mentality that pushes a lot of these players to do that. And it isn't in the true spirit of Pokemon where you want to "be the very best" but you want to crush everyone else.

Forgoing all that flowery talk, I do agree that for the most part, it is a nice system in the fact that you can play the game casually and enjoy it and play the game in the competitive way and still enjoy it. However, as online play becomes increasingly prevalent, I feel like something is going to have to give. I can pick up any modern online shooter, and I will at least be on a level playing field with my fellow players. I will get better with time as I learn the maps, weapon spawns, and unlock potential goodies, but I'm not going in and getting hammered because I haven't spent 200+ hours trying to get the right stats on my weapons or something like that. Even most MMOs are moving away from having very esoteric upgrade systems and instead streamlining character improvement, so that way you invest time to get better yes, but you don't have to spend inordinate amounts of time to get the exact right items to be viable. Interestingly enough, most people who decry those changes (I'm thinking of WoW specifically) are the people who consider themselves "hardcore" and look down upon "filthy casuals" who don't put in the crazy amounts of time to know the game inside out and dedicate their weekends to farming for the right stuff.

I feel that online attitude is something they should strive to not cultivate in Pokemon, because again, that flies directly in the face of the spirit of the whole thing. The easiest way to do that is make it so it isn't even present. That to me would be a brilliant step in making Pokemon a more fun online environment. I understand there are always going to be the "best" ways to play any game in a competitive sense, but I don't think an aspect of that should involve copious amounts of time. Again, I think the perfect system would be one that most closely mirrors the show. When I go out hunting for a Pidgey, I just want a male Pidgey, so I catch the first one I see and that is MY Pidgey. He has the exact same potential as any other Pidgey and if I train him hard enough, he can be as competitive as any other Pidgey.

That is what I want them to shoot for. I don't want to have to breed a million Pidgeys to get that one perfect one, I just want to use the one. And honestly, why would anyone want to keep the excessive breeding mechanic to begin with? What is fun about breeding eggs a million times? I think the fun of Pokemon comes from taking your favorites and battling against others favorites, seeing what moves they use, which Pokemon they like, etc. I mean, when it comes to competitive play anyway, I've wrecked a person who used 3 legendaries one time. Type match ups are still king in the game, so I say let's just get rid of the other stuff and focus on what's important. Give us new methods to train our Pokemon, give us contest, give us the PWT, and just make the game as full and vibrant as possible. That is what people want.

I want what you described in the last paragraphs. Well, perhaps they can leave natures. Perhaps it'll be easier to raise a certain stat if it has a certain nature, compared to another. Like a Quiet Pokémon might be difficult to raise the attack of, but it's special defense can be easier. Something along those lines. It'll make it more complex, but in some ways simple enough for children to get without even needing to know the full details of the mechanics.

 

[pkmin3033]

edit: For all those saying it's ok if it's optional... if they change things, they won't be optional, by and large. Especially if they touch mechanics. You obviously cannot have two players fight each other if they are using Pokemon that follow different sets of game rules. It just ain't gonna happen. It's either all in or it's all for naught. I'll be especially interested to see how they take things forward. I'm really excited now, especially since we can transfer Pokemon from R/B/Y. I mean I know for G/S you just had a random gender assigned to your Pokemon along with anything else, but this might be them prepping for big changes to the mechanics. Long shot, but if true it would be a big plus for me.

Not necessarily; you can quite easily set rules or adjust setings at the start of a match. You could have EVs and IVs turned off entirely, or turned on and set to the maximum possible values to correspond with Nature if they kept that in. Like how Pokemon levels are automatically set to Level 50 or Level 100 in some cases, and how the use of other Pokemon is restricted. It isn't as time consuming or difficult to include an option like that as people seem to think. An "all or nothing" approach seems more likely, I will give you that, but it's not the sole option. Different battle settings is not a new or revolutionary thing, so why not include those as a means of compromise?

I have to admit, your idea of doing away with them entirely and going back to Gen I's way of doing things is highly appealing (I don't battle competitively myself either, and the IV/EV mechanics are a huge part of the reason why) but I still think excluding one group - even if that group is a minority - for the benefit of everyone else is counter-productive, especially when the competitive batte scene has been slowly build up and has changed dramatically over the years...and that still wouldn't level out the playing field or balance the metagame either, which is what they REALLY need to address in my opinion.

 

[Thunderflare]

Pokemon is a very well balanced game. Any adjustments need to be made with tweezers, not with a spade. The only alteration I can think of is a buff for Bug types. I think they should have another resistance to Dark or Fairy types. I also can't understand why Fairy types would need a resistance to Bug types.

 

[destinedjagold]

I'd really like it if they wouldn't make things simple. If they will, then I hope they'll add an option of making things not so simple. XY were too easy, and ORAS was somewhat easy, and that's me with the Exp. Share. turned off.

 

[Ho-Oh]

All I really hope is that they trim "typical" moves of same typing down.

Tackle/Pound/Scratch/etc just becomes Tackle.
Bubble/Water Gun just becomes Bubble (because Bubble has a secondary effect)

Don't get rid of ExtremeSpeed or Aqua Jet for Quick Attack for example though, because they're all different. ES has extra priority, and priority moves of different TYPING should stay.

I personally think they should stay as they are. Tackle/Pound/Scratch for example are associated with starters, they're classics, and they all mean a different thing. Whether or not they have the same effect doesn't matter. Say you're talking human terms, and you're playing a contact sports game. You go to tackle your opponent but because they're all the same you're actually scratching and pounding the person at the same time (which could lead to a lawsuit or two). I get why they should be merged together but I think considering what they actually do is important to this. Consider that Pokemon is also heavily realistic too, like with battling on the anime, weak moves are awesome, based on what they actually would do in real life. Merging them together would throw off things for the anime as well. I know they aren't traditionally the same but in this case I think things are better off as they are.

I also know that removing two doesn't imply that it becomes all three at once but it just doesn't feel right to me. If anything we should not introduce any new moves rather than cull old ones to simplify.

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Not necessarily; you can quite easily set rules or adjust setings at the start of a match. You could have EVs and IVs turned off entirely, or turned on and set to the maximum possible values to correspond with Nature if they kept that in. Like how Pokemon levels are automatically set to Level 50 or Level 100 in some cases, and how the use of other Pokemon is restricted. It isn't as time consuming or difficult to include an option like that as people seem to think. An "all or nothing" approach seems more likely, I will give you that, but it's not the sole option. Different battle settings is not a new or revolutionary thing, so why not include those as a means of compromise?

How are we suppose to know if these battle settings are easy to develop if neither of us are game programmers ourselves? There may be a legit programming issue as a reason why these ideas never came into Game Freak's mind, but knowing you, you'll simply regard it as a silly excuse.

I have to admit, your idea of doing away with them entirely and going back to Gen I's way of doing things is highly appealing (I don't battle competitively myself either, and the IV/EV mechanics are a huge part of the reason why) but I still think excluding one group - even if that group is a minority - for the benefit of everyone else is counter-productive, especially when the competitive batte scene has been slowly build up and has changed dramatically over the years...and that still wouldn't level out the playing field or balance the metagame either, which is what they REALLY need to address in my opinion.

The problem with your reasoning is that even if a company tries to please everyone, they'll still get backlash from another minority group, whether it's because of certain characters they think is a racial stereotype, the game itself being "sexist," or the lack of characters from certain sexual orientations. Even the same groups they're trying to please will try to compete each other on who gets the special treatment regardless, and it becomes a single player vs. competitive experience debate.

 

[Esper]

The problem with your reasoning is that even if a company tries to please everyone, they'll still get backlash from another minority group, whether it's because of certain characters they think is a racial stereotype, the game itself being "sexist," or the lack of characters from certain sexual orientations. Even the same groups they're trying to please will try to compete each other on who gets the special treatment regardless, and it becomes a single player vs. competitive experience debate.

I think all they were saying is that GF shouldn't alienate its fans by taking away something it already gave us *cough* character customization *cough*

 

[pkmin3033]

How are we suppose to know if these battle settings are easy to develop if neither of us are game programmers ourselves? There may be a legit programming issue as a reason why these ideas never came into Game Freak's mind, but knowing you, you'll simply regard it as a silly excuse.

I'm going based off of what has been included in the past in games; we have different battle settings already as it is, through excluding certain Pokemon in tournament settings, etc. I think it a relatively safe assumption that, if they are already building rulesets for these things, that they can do so again. I can see no reason why they wouldn't be able to do so. I may or may not be wrong. It's an assumption. An idea. Speculation. It's all I or anyone else has at this juncture regarding these titles.
Oh, and guess what? You don't know me. So stop assuming that you do and stop putting words in my mouth. Thank you.

The problem with your reasoning is that even if a company tries to please everyone, they'll still get backlash from another minority group, whether it's because of certain characters they think is a racial stereotype, the game itself being "sexist," or the lack of characters from certain sexual orientations. Even the same groups they're trying to please will try to compete each other on who gets the special treatment regardless, and it becomes a single player vs. competitive experience debate.

So? Those arguments have always been there, and will always be there. I don't see how that relates to my reasoning in the slightest. My reasoning, my point, is that making sweeping changes on that level will do nothing to address the issues present; it's simplification for simplification's sake. IVs and EVs have no effect whatsoever on the main story of the game; they are purely competitive aspects of gameplay. I know nobody who has had to EV train or IV breed in order to complete the main game. Their removal might level the playing field and make competitive Pokemon more accessible to more people...or it might not. There are other factors regarding that area, I feel, which should be addressed first.

 

[LilBueno]

I think certain physical moves shouldn't take a move slot. Tackle/Pound/Scratch/etc have similar effects, yeah, but really? My Pokemon has to know how to Tackle its opponent as a battle move? There are other similar moves like Bite. There has to be some way to streamline that.

 

[Hikamaru]

I think certain physical moves shouldn't take a move slot. Tackle/Pound/Scratch/etc have similar effects, yeah, but really? My Pokemon has to know how to Tackle its opponent as a battle move? There are other similar moves like Bite. There has to be some way to streamline that.

The trick as to why Tackle/Scratch/Pound exist is because every Pokemon must start small and then work up to the stronger attacks. It's a formula I doubt that would ever be scrapped.

 

[LilBueno]

The trick as to why Tackle/Scratch/Pound exist is because every Pokemon must start small and then work up to the stronger attacks. It's a formula I doubt that would ever be scrapped.

I understand that, I just think there has to be a better way.

 

[Sopheria]

The trick as to why Tackle/Scratch/Pound exist is because every Pokemon must start small and then work up to the stronger attacks. It's a formula I doubt that would ever be scrapped.

I think that what he meant was that those attacks should be usable without taking up a moveslot, since tackling or scratching is a generic enough action and isn't a "skill" that needs to be learned, per se (or forgotten, for that matter). Sorta like how most RPGs have a generic "attack" action that's weaker than skill-based attacks, but at the same time doesn't occupy a moveslot and has unlimited uses. Not sure how likely that would be to happen in Pokémon, but it's something that almost all RPGs except Pokémon do and would definitely be a simplification of sorts.

 

[pkmin3033]

I think that what he meant was that those attacks should be usable without taking up a moveslot, since tackling or scratching is a generic enough action and isn't a "skill" that needs to be learned, per se (or forgotten, for that matter). Sorta like how most RPGs have a generic "attack" action that's weaker than skill-based attacks, but at the same time doesn't occupy a moveslot and has unlimited uses. Not sure how likely that would be to happen in Pokémon, but it's something that almost all RPGs except Pokémon do and would definitely be a simplification of sorts.

So basically what the Mystery Dungeon series have; a weak attack move assigned to a different button that can be used instead of the standard weak normal-type move they typically learn in the beginning?

I could get behind that. It IS a better alternative than Struggle I think, and it has the added benefit of meaning your Pokemon aren't utterly useless if they use all their attack moves and only have passive moves left. I can't see it happening in the mothership titles either, but it IS a nice idea and a good way to remove "unnecessary" moves without any negative effects.

 

[Ultan]

Removing Pokémon like Luvdisc (if there is even anything else like it) wouldn't bother me at all...

 

[Rivvon]

I hope they get rid of IVs, EVs, and make nature more of a flavor thing and not a competitive aspect.

IVs, yes. I agree with that. I already touched on that in my last post but hopefully I can make it more clear here... but more on that later.

Remove EVs and Natures? No, absolutely not.

First I just want to get out of the way that "simplification" and "streamlining" aren't quite the same thing, and simplification isn't always that great. By removing EVs and Natures, you're watering down what makes competitive Pokémon unique. I'll try to explain with some concrete examples because maybe what I said in my previous post wasn't very clear...

From a competitive standpoint:
If I open up my Omega Ruby and check the "Competitive" box I have on my PC, I'll have, at this very moment, at least three different, equally-viable Swampert. How is that possible? EVs and Natures.

Swampert #1: Single Battle Support
Relaxed Nature (+Defense, -Speed)
EV spread dedicated to HP and defenses
Overall supportive moveset
Give him some Leftovers to munch on

Swampert #2: Single Battle Sweeper
Adamant Nature (+Attack, -Sp.Attack)
EV spread to maximize Attack, enough Speed, and the rest in HP to accentuate his natural bulk
Moveset ready 2 sweep
Hit the Gym with Swampertite

Swampert #3: Double Battle Special Attacker
Modest Nature (+Sp.Attack, -Attack)
EV spread for maximizing Sp.Attack and HP
Replace the usual Physical STAB moves for Special ones and you're ready to rock
Expert Belt makes his Special Attack stronger than if he was Mega'd

If Natures were nothing more than flavor text and EVs didn't exist, this would not be possible. All Swampert would be the same physical-oriented mudfish. The same applies to other Pokémon, even those who seem really overused: Primal Groudon can be a physical, special, or mixed attacker, and can be either fast (+Speed Nature and EV investment) to help outspeed other Groudon, or slower and bulkier to take their attacks (defensive EV investment). There are so many possibilities opened up to players because of Natures and EVs!! Removing them would only make the competitive scene even more stale and boring and repetitive.

So why do I think IVs can go? Because all those Swampert I mentioned have the same IVs. When it comes down to it, everyone is gonna be using perfect-IV Pokémon all the time anyways. All Pokémon are caught and bred to be perfect IV-wise. Few exceptions exist, but for the most part they're perfect (really I just don't want to go into the nuances of 5IVs because I don't want to confuse anyone, but 5IVs are "perfect" in their own right so my point still stands). So since everyone is expected to go in with their 6IV dream team, removing IVs is just removing one step in the process of creating a competitive Pokémon--it's streamlining, not simplifying. Removing IVs could even be good for Hidden Power, the Type of which is based on the Pokémon's IVs--just assign a new hidden value to each Pokémon and then breeding for certain Hidden Powers is much easier, not to mention it opens up the possibility of Fairy-Type Hidden Power finally being a thing.

I can tell you right now from lots and lots of experience: the IV breeding is the most tedious, time-consuming part. Breeding for the right Nature, Egg moves, Hidden Power, etc. and subsequently EV training your new Pokémon is rewarding and should be the focus of creating a competitive Pokémon.

From a casual standpoint:

Why do Natures matter to you???

I beat Pokémon X with a Modest Pinsir. A Modest Pinsir. That's like the worst possible Nature for Pinsir to have and it still carried me through most of the game (and by most I mean the second half--it probably would have carried me through the beginning too if I had it that early)! Even back in gen 5, the last time Pokémon games were even remotely challenging, a hindering-Nature Pokémon could still make it through the Pokémon league just fine. These games are not challenging enough for Natures to matter during a casual playthrough of the story, so what would it matter to you if Natures remained an integral component to competitive play?

Game Freak has confirmed that they, at least to some extent, take into consideration what happens at Worlds when re-balancing certain attacks--ever wonder why in gen 6 Grass-Types are immune to "powder" moves, and why they introduced the Safety Goggles item? Check out the 2013 Worlds Masters finals and have fun watching an Amoonguss Spore everything in its path! And while most players are certainly more "casual," the competitive scene is still growing and is definitely an important group to TPC(i). Some aspects of the game can certainly be streamlined to make things less tedious for everyone, but other things would just make the games simpler and sometimes simpler isn't better--it's nice to have a game that can offer so much depth if you actually take the time to learn about it!

In summary, Natures and EVs actually make each Pokémon different and allow the Trainer creativity in how they train their Pokémon, so those aspects should stay. Alternatively, in competitive play--the only place where IVs even matter--everyone will be using perfect-IV Pokémon, so in that instance they are all the same. Thus, removing IVs would only serve as a way to streamline the process of creating competitive Pokémon. Therefore, it can go.

 

[OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire]

I am absolutely fine with IV's going away but Ev's and natures staying. It'll make it easier to train that mon one wants.

 

[pkmin3033]

One thing I forget whether I've mentioned already but feel the need to add now onto the end of Rivvon's rather wonderful post above me is that the process of EV Training has already been simplified beautifully through the inclusion of the Super Training minigame. It's something anyone and everyone can access, it's an easy little minigame that produces great results and doesn't take very long - once you've unlocked all of them, you could max a Pokemon's EVs in about an hour. It even shows you how much you've done.

It'd be rather strange move for Game Freak to remove EVs at this juncture for the sake of simplification, as they would then have to remove Super Training, as it would serve no practical purpose.