Suspect Discussion Thread [Stage 3-3] - Have fun in Banland, Garchomp (or not =/)

[Anti]

Suspect Discussion Thread [Stage 3-3]

Introduction

This has been slightly revamped for the new Stage 3-3 test, where Manaphy and Latias are the last remaining suspects. Garchomp has been voted UBER by a simple majority two consecutive times and will remain Uber as a result.

The Suspects

Latias
Typing: Dragon / Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Base Stats:
HP: 80
Atk: 80
Def: 90
Spd: 110
SAtk: 110
SDef: 130

Stage 3-1 Voting Result
Uber: 10 votes (12% of votes cast)
OU: 76 votes (88% of votes cast)

Stage 3-2 Voting Result
Uber: 27 votes (21% of votes cast)
OU: 100 votes (79% of votes cast)

Manaphy
Typing: Water
Ability: Hydration
Base Stats:
HP: 100
Atk: 100
Def: 100
Spd: 100
SAtk: 100
SDef: 100

Stage 3-1 Voting Result
Uber: 33 votes (42% of votes cast)
OU: 46 votes (58% of votes cast)

Stage 3-2 Voting Result
Uber: 38 votes (31% of votes cast)
OU: 83 votes (69% of votes cast)

The Characteristics

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

Manaphy: 58% for OU.
Oh lawd Manaphy may be OU now.
I smell Rain Dance teams on the rise.

 

[Fire Wolf]

Noo....... Garchomp not coming to OU? It seems that it won't :(

 

[FreakyLocz14]

Noo....... Garchomp not coming to OU? It seems that it won't :(

I feel your pain, my friend.

 

[Malevolent Mismagius]

Latias: Strong but not unbeatable, I think everyone agrees that with its Pursuit weakness and the abundance of things like CBtar, CBscizor and specially defensive Metagross all carrying this move even without Latias considered means it doesn't really smash the OU metagame that much. But to underestimate Latias would be stupid as it is still considered by myself to be one of the best pokemon in OU (mence/luke/latias/gyara/heatan). On the other hand if Latios were to become OU this wouldn't be used except for its defencive sets.
Decision: OU

Garchomp: I wasn't playing when this was previously OU so I don't think my opinion will be great here. Garchomp is definitely not unbeatable so I wouldn't support it staying in ubers where it can't be a standout, however sand veil hax can really change the result of a game.
Decision: OU, maybe

Manaphy: The reason I'm posting here is not to put a short comment in on Garchomp or Latias and both in my opinion would be very fine in OU, but I definitely don't want Manaphy coming down to spike the use of Rain Dance teams. I think everyone will speak with me when I say that they are incredibly hard to deal with with Swift Swim Kingdra running around. The one saving grace players playing against RD teams experience is the eventual end of the rain and must act fast before the rain is re run. I'm not saying that it should be ubers, just that it should not be combined with Kingdra so that people can just spam RD. It will in fact be another suspect, Latias, that is the only surefire way to beat it in the OU metagame, and that will probably raise the usage of Latias to the point where she may be ubers again, which will leave few counters/checks for Manaphy. Just an opinion, as an already avid hater of RD teams, I do not want them getting any stronger.
Decision: Ubers

Just some thoughts.

 

[Anti]

Manaphy: 58% for OU.
Oh lawd Manaphy may be OU now.
I smell Rain Dance teams on the rise.

Manaphy was actually the most underwhelming suspect on the ladder in my experiences (even behind Latias, which was very good). The Rain can't save it from faster sweepers that have the power to overwhelm it. I must say though, the defensive Tail Glow set Vance and I ran was pretty good, and while it lacked power, it was a major pain to kill.

Manaphy: The reason I'm posting here is not to put a short comment in on Garchomp or Latias and both in my opinion would be very fine in OU, but I definitely don't want Manaphy coming down to spike the use of Rain Dance teams. I think everyone will speak with me when I say that they are incredibly hard to deal with with Swift Swim Kingdra running around. The one saving grace players playing against RD teams experience is the eventual end of the rain and must act fast before the rain is re run. I'm not saying that it should be ubers, just that it should not be combined with Kingdra so that people can just spam RD. It will in fact be another suspect, Latias, that is the only surefire way to beat it in the OU metagame, and that will probably raise the usage of Latias to the point where she may be ubers again, which will leave few counters/checks for Manaphy. Just an opinion, as an already avid hater of RD teams, I do not want them getting any stronger.
Decision: Ubers

I have no idea how raising the usage of Kingdra or even Rain teams somehow makes Manaphy Uber. There is no "combination characteristic." You can't just call it Uber because you hate Rain teams...that's ridiculous. Also, the notion that an increase in Latias' usage would somehow make it "more Uber" is ridiculous IMO. I would expect more Latias usage to be evened out with a metagame that would adapt to stop it (though it has essentially already done that). The idea of the test is to look at Manaphy itself (likely under the offensive characteristic) and see if it is Uber, not whether or not we will like the effects it will have. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but that sure is what your reasoning sounds like. =(

 

[Dark Azelf]

Latias : - "If you think this is uber im sorry your team frikking sucks? stop whining" lol. OU 100%.

Garchomp : - Contrary to what people think, i did have about 8-10 matches on suspect the other day just enough to gaugh if what people said was true and won all but one, i currently think its ou honestly, it may be the way i built my teams but yeah (I used stall, which people said was no longer viable on this ladder, yeah..no. Well they say it about every tier with a few powerful sweepers/suspect but i always win so lol @ theorymon. ^_^). I'd LOVE to see this back basically because then we actually have a scarfer who isnt Pursuit bait (apart from the like only other good scarfer, Jirachi). Garchomp was such a good scarfer because even if it got set up on you could come back in next turn and be faster than them anyway still lol. Yache/Haban Berry sets, is exactly its own downfall now deciding on the berries it wants to use, it cant have both people. I mean how centralizing is adding a steel to absorb the Outrages and something with Ice Beam/Ice move and something to revenge kill really...OH WAIT WE HAVE TO DO ALL OF THESE FOR MENCE, so no dont bring this up. Sandveil, yes MISSING SUCKS BUT STOP WHINING honestly, couldnt you miss on a Rock Polish/SD Baton Pass Gliscor who passes to a powerful sweeper ? Then that same Gliscor (same amount of weaks as chomp btw, 2) fits the support characteristics right ? :/ Yes while that was overexagerated that IS most people logic so dont call me out on this lol. For those of you who use CB Scizor @ Bullet Punch, all you have to do is get this to ~50% and then Bullet Punch it, sorry but how is taking away 50% of a pokemons health even hard ? ~_~ SD Garchomp remids me of SD Gallade in UU, who again was meant to "make stall unviable" yes i got to #2 in a Gallade metagame with heavy stall go figure, TL;DR stop whining and actually PREPARE for it. Ive seen one CB chomp and you beat it like you do any other powerful choice users, prediction (if you use HO and dont predict then that is your own stupid fault for using a dumb play style) just like CB Mence who's choice set has no counters. Chomp shouldnt be a a bigger problem for offense than it is for stall for obv reasons. Really if you want the truth i havent had to adapt my team to deal with chomp at all, nor did i overspecialize anything at all. :/ Yeah chomp is THE best sweeper but its not unbeatable and you can adapt to it. Current opinion : OU.


Manaphy : - Although i had to put T-Bolt on my Blissey to break its subs, god this thing is so weak lol. Toxic Spikes also destroyed it, phazers destroy it etc. I did actually use this guy on my team though as a bulky sub minder because he fits in well on stall being able to counter ape pretty much 100% and is awesome with the residual damage T-Spikes/Spikes/SR grants. Very cute and not overcentralizing. Rain Dance also isnt broken because it only lasts 8 turns and its pretty eas-ish to revenge kill. Current opinion is that this is OU atm, though i hate Rain Dance in general so w.e lol.


EDIT : LOL this sounded like i was psuedo trolling haha.

EDIT 2 : Anti is gonna kick my butt now. T_T_T_T_T_T_T_T_T

 

[Malevolent Mismagius]

I have no idea how raising the usage of Kingdra or even Rain teams somehow makes Manaphy Uber. There is no "combination characteristic." You can't just call it Uber because you hate Rain teams...that's ridiculous. Also, the notion that an increase in Latias' usage would somehow make it "more Uber" is ridiculous IMO. I would expect more Latias usage to be evened out with a metagame that would adapt to stop it (though it has essentially already done that). The idea of the test is to look at Manaphy itself (likely under the offensive characteristic) and see if it is Uber, not whether or not we will like the effects it will have. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but that sure is what your reasoning sounds like. =(

Isn't the tiering based on usage, or was I just wrong?

Secondly, I believe not many pokemon will be able to straight out overwhelm Manaphy, which makes it pretty hard to counter.

Thirdly, in the rain Kingdra is beastly. Coupled with Manaphy, RD teams would be even harder to beat, meaning more people would spam them.

As an already avid hater of RD teams, I PERSONALLY would love it to stay in ubers. I was just saying it should stay in ubers because because rain dance teams would be very difficult to beat with Manaphy.

 

[wolf]

Isn't the tiering based on usage, or was I just wrong?

Uber and BL are not based on usage, they are more like ban tiers.

 

[_Prince_]

I got my rights to vote =P

I'll be voting them all OU, I will not go in to Latias and it's kinda obvious where she belongs, uh?

Garchomp: aye, this is interesting, there's good enough reasons for it being uber/OU from both sides, I based my vote the way I've seen it in my battles, not once it's been able to sweep past my team without the odd miss with sand veil, that's only happened like every fifteen battles or so of the outcome putting me at a disadvantage. I agree with D_A on his statement on Garchomp.

Manaphy: quite underwhelming, the only set I find effective was the crophy, even that becomes set up bait for kingdra, gyarados, etc...

 

[Anti]

Isn't the tiering based on usage, or was I just wrong?

Secondly, I believe not many pokemon will be able to straight out overwhelm Manaphy, which makes it pretty hard to counter.

Thirdly, in the rain Kingdra is beastly. Coupled with Manaphy, RD teams would be even harder to beat, meaning more people would spam them.

As an already avid hater of RD teams, I PERSONALLY would love it to stay in ubers. I was just saying it should stay in ubers because because rain dance teams would be very difficult to beat with Manaphy.

OU --> Uber tiering is based on the characteristics, which I edited into the OP a few days ago.

Manaphy is bulky but still not difficult to counter and overwhelm, to use your term. The offensive sets never made any kind of impact against my team on the suspect ladder, and it wasn't really made with Manaphy in mind, lol.

There is no combination characteristic. Kingdra can still be supported by any other Pokemon with Rain. It has absolutely no relevance to this discussion since it's just as terrifying without Manaphy around. Actually, Manaphy can take Kingdra's hits pretty well haha.

Manaphy actually was rarely used in the Rain when I battled (mostly because people were busy spamming Tyranitar + Garchomp), but Rain doesn't save Manaphy from getting clobbered by faster Electric-types and the few powerful attackers that can outspeed it and inflict a lot of damage. Latias is a major thorn in Manaphy's side, as is Jolteon and Scarf Magnezone. What Manaphy does to the effectiveness of Rain Dance teams simply doesn't matter unless Manaphy itself is the broken member, whether it be by the support, offensive, or defensive characteristic.

-------------

Yesterday, I cast my vote on Smogon. So I guess I'll post my opinions on the suspects and how I voted, obviously.

Latias - OU

This was an easy decision, though it actually seemed even better in the suspect environment. As a dominant force in that metagame (which the vote is based on), it was very good, but none of the three characteristics really stood out when I looked briefly at the potential of Latias being Uber. That's why I had no doubts voting Latias OU.

Manaphy - OU

I'm surprised that this is so controversial here. Manaphy rarely had a significant impact on any of my battles, and it was on almost every team I faced. I found that the more bulky Manaphy was, the more difficult is was to take down. Obviously, the only characteristic it can really fit is the offensive characteristic. However, Manaphy hardly had a real impact, let alone a chance to sweep significant portions of opponents' teams with little effort. The high usage of Latias and max Speed Jolly Garchomp/ScarfChomp really made it difficult for Manaphy to make its presence felt in a significant fashion. Based on this test, there was no way I was going to vote Manaphy Uber. The bulky sets can be terrifying, but terrifying is not the same thing as broken. That was the gist of D_A's argument with regards to Garchomp, only Manaphy isn't even as threatening as that. Manaphy did not prove itself to be broken, so I voted it OU.

Garchomp - Abstain

This was by far the most difficult decision. I decided to abstain because it did not seem to meet any of the characteristics--though it was very close with offense because of its Choice Band and Swords Dance sets. It was good enough that I simply wasn't sure if I could determine whether or not Garchomp was OU or Uber accurately. As I mentioned, I was leaning OU, but I think a lot of that had to do with past positions from a completely different metagame and time period. I became convinced that any decision I made would be based on things that probably don't matter in the big picture, and since I still couldn't really make up my mind, I decided to Abstain. I'm very interested to see how the vote turns out though!

 

[ABYAY]

Latias: *Stares at D_A =\* Although this thing really kicks me around, it is OU material. It does have many resistances, but at the same time, it has a few common weaknesses, one being named Pursuit.

Garchomp: I never used it, but by all means, I'd love to see it back in the OU metagame. Latias can still keep it in check (Bar the Haban Berry), and Scizor can put a nice dent in it or kill weakened ones.

Manaphy: Viable in OU without a doubt; it may be bulky with all 100 stats, but OU does not favor rain, which is what made Manaphy more useful in Ubers. There's Hippowdon and Tyranitar running about, which destroys any opportunity to set up rain.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

There's so many things I've heard I'm not gonna bother quoting them all.

This is mainly for Manaphy. Toxic Spikes can't do anything to Manaphy because Hydration will cure it's poison status. If it were to become OU Rain Dance teams would go on the rise and the RainRest Manaphy would Tail Glow up and sweep through most teams. I never battled Suspect on Smogon or PC's server (except maybe once or twice) but I have on TeamUber's and I used Manaphy and I was always able to get a Tail Glow in without difficulty and many times able to get in a second. Rain boosted +2 Surfs can even hit bulky waters for a lot of damage so much that Grass Knot isn't even needed so Energy Ball will take care of other Manaphy. It's Ice Beam at +2 will surely OHKO Mence, DNite, and Chomp even Yache varieties. Heck, Rain boosted Surf will even KO Chomp.

Latias: Well she's a Special Defensive beast with Calm Mind in her arsenal. I'd say she's one of the best OU Special tanks there is. But perhaps the rise is usage of Steel-types lessens her threat level.

Garchomp: Ah, it seems the debate on Chomp will go on for centuries. I hear it has no real counters. So what! This is a game played with skill and wit. I've won almost every battle where I've seen Chomp on someone's team. Weavile easily outspeeds it, and both the Choice Band and Swords Dance sets can OHKO Garchomp WITH YACHE BERRY using Ice Punch. Cloyster can switch in and Icicle Spear it to death. Sand Veil doesn't really stop most moves. It's say it only worked 10-25 of the time. Pretty much any Pokemon with decent Attack/Special Attack and stat boosts or STAB can take it out. Even bulky waters can take a hit or two and hit back with strong boosted Water STAB.

 

[Anti]

This is mainly for Manaphy. Toxic Spikes can't do anything to Manaphy because Hydration will cure it's poison status. If it were to become OU Rain Dance teams would go on the rise and the RainRest Manaphy would Tail Glow up and sweep through most teams. I never battled Suspect on Smogon or PC's server (except maybe once or twice) but I have on TeamUber's and I used Manaphy and I was always able to get a Tail Glow in without difficulty and many times able to get in a second. Rain boosted +2 Surfs can even hit bulky waters for a lot of damage so much that Grass Knot isn't even needed so Energy Ball will take care of other Manaphy. It's Ice Beam at +2 will surely OHKO Mence, DNite, and Chomp even Yache varieties. Heck, Rain boosted Surf will even KO Chomp.

One stat boost is a given since Manaphy should be coming in on something it can force out. Anyway, your argument of Rain Dance teams and the rise of RainRest Manaphy is rather silly. For one thing, it's impossible to predict Manaphy's impact on the OU metagame should it be voted to OU. I'm just curious why Manaphy didn't dominate the suspect ladder when the conditions you're speaking of (a metagame with Garchomp and Latias) existed. The metagame was much more centralized around Garchomp and Latias, which is a sign of how battlers felt they needed to react to Manaphy.

Also, Manaphy isn't always going to have Rain up. Just because it has an ability that takes advantage of the rain doesn't mean that Toxic Spikes and status in general are no longer relevant to the discussion. Its Tail Glow + 3 attacks Life Orb attacker set isn't saved from Toxic Spikes. All three characteristics mention common battle conditions, and Rain is not one of them, even on many of the teams Manaphy is on.

Your argument is basically that it can KO a lot of stuff when you take out the useless theorymon prediction of the rise of Rain Dance teams. I mean, 598 SAtk and a Life Orb boost and I would hope that it can KO a lot of things. However, Manaphy has issues with common Pokemon like Latias and Jolteon. It really has trouble with anything faster that can hit it hard. Manaphy can't be deemed Uber because of an irrational fear of Rain Dance teams or because of random and baseless predictions of what the OU metagame would be like with it. We have to base it on the characteristics. It isn't enough of an offensive force to be Uber from my experiences.

Garchomp: Ah, it seems the debate on Chomp will go on for centuries. I hear it has no real counters. So what! This is a game played with skill and wit. I've won almost every battle where I've seen Chomp on someone's team. Weavile easily outspeeds it, and both the Choice Band and Swords Dance sets can OHKO Garchomp WITH YACHE BERRY using Ice Punch. Cloyster can switch in and Icicle Spear it to death. Sand Veil doesn't really stop most moves. It's say it only worked 10-25 of the time. Pretty much any Pokemon with decent Attack/Special Attack and stat boosts or STAB can take it out. Even bulky waters can take a hit or two and hit back with strong boosted Water STAB.

The Cloyster reference undermines your post, lol. Closyer is a horrible Pokemon that would only be on a team for the sole purpose of countering Garchomp and maybe being death fodder after getting mutilated by Stealth Rock. But anyway, why argue that counters don't matter and then bring them up lol? Bulky Waters can only take one hit from a Choice Band/Swords Dance Garchomp, and Surf doesn't do much damage. Also, I do kind of like how you could apply these very principles to Manaphy and deem it OU. "Yeah, it has a few counters, and anything with strong attacking stats or stat boosts can take it out." The difference is that Garchomp hits so much harder, and I guess the Speed matters too (though it's usually completely exaggerated by the pro-Uber crowd lol). Also, no sweeper can withstand hits from something that has boosted its Atk or SAtk - this should be obvious.

I am mighty curious how Manaphy being able to take out a large portion of the OU tier and Garchomp having the same capabilities makes one of them Uber and one of them OU. It seems like you're setting a double standard. And no, Rain Dance/Hydration really doesn't stop it from being essentially Garchomp with worse offensive typing and better defensive typing. Yes, Weavile outspeeds Garchomp, but Jolteon outspeeds Manaphy (and it also doesn't suck, which is a plus). I can draw lots of parallels if you really want me to...

 

[FreakyLocz14]

I see where you're coming from Anti. I've been going on about RainRest Manaphy but come to think of it, RainRest is the only thing Manaphy has going for it.

 

[Dark Azelf]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63984

Garchomp: 57% Uber (52 OU, 70 Uber, 5 Abstain)
Latias: 21% Uber (98 OU, 26 Uber, 3 Abstain)
Manaphy: 31% Uber (83 OU, 37 Uber, 7 Abstain)

So Manaphy is now OU along with Latias. Garchomp heads back to uber. :/

Also https://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64254

Dont see how testing clauses will help anything but w/e, i mean cant we test stuff like Deoxys-D or something ? Prepare for more illogical noobs/idiots trying to defend the OHKO/Evasion clause if it gets tested, i can see it now "BUT HAZE BEETZ DUBLE TEEM" [/Misa] lol. :D


Discuss lol

 

[Aurafire]

The results are not surprising. I knew Garchomp was going to be close, but it's sad we can't see how he'd fare in the now much more evolved OU metagame.

How anyone voted Latias uber is beyond me, that thing is far from broken. And Manaphy well checked in OU by Jolteon, Latias, T-bolt Bliss ect. Still, it should be pretty interesting :O

And I hope they leave the tiers untouched, lest we all get smashed by elfs DD / Double team Kingdra ;___;

 

[.Aero]

Well these results make me happy at least. :3 As I expected too.

Wish Garchomp would have come down honestly, as I've always wanted to actually use him. ;o;

Thanks for the update DA.

Is the smogon ban list updated with Manaphy yet? Cuz I want to start laddering dood.

 

[Archer]

I've got to say, I'm not too keen on Garchomp, but that's more of a personal preference. I honestly think, considering just how close the vote was, that there should some sort of revote, or another test in the near future, because it's simply to close to say there's a decisive choice.

I really need to get back into laddering, though. So I can talk from experience about the suspects.

 

[Silent Storm]

Just read the stage 3-2 thread, apparently they are considering extending the test so that Manaphy and Latias are tested without Garchomp. =/

After speaking with Aeolus and other Tiering Contributors over the past few days, we are considering holding a Stage 3-3 where Latias and Manaphy will be tested together. Logically, this is of course the correct thing to have done yesterday.

I trust you won't perceive it as defensiveness when I cite our decision to add Latias to the Standard Ladder earlier this year after its OU Stage 2 tag as the only reason I felt it a virtual non-issue to similarly move Manaphy to the Standard Ladder. I and we have changed many, many things during this test on the fly, and this probably won't be the last reconsideration that's made during the Suspect Test Process.