The Men's Rights Movement

[Hackenfall Backslash]

this thread is honestly just silly and there's literally no need for mra's

Ah. But sadly, there is need for MRAs. Though, I'd say MGTOW are making much more of a dent in things.

 

[maccrash]

i'm gonna be totally blunt here i don't even care
straight white men have all their rights??
why don't we talk about something that actually matters like women's rights or gay rights or poc rights because that's where the issues come up. lots of men think they're so unprivileged in this world, but after you compare men's rights to everyone else's, it will make you want to stop rambling pointlessly about how "mistreated" men are.
this thread is honestly just silly and there's literally no need for mra's

this is the Men's Rights Movement thread

not the Straight White Men's Rights Movement thread

 

[twocows]

i'm gonna be totally blunt here i don't even care
straight white men have all their rights??
why don't we talk about something that actually matters like women's rights or gay rights or poc rights because that's where the issues come up. lots of men think they're so unprivileged in this world, but after you compare men's rights to everyone else's, it will make you want to stop rambling pointlessly about how "mistreated" men are.
this thread is honestly just silly and there's literally no need for mra's

So suffering doesn't matter because other suffering is worse? If one of your family members committed suicide, would it be irrelevant because there's currently genocide happening in parts of Africa?

What you are committing is a logical fallacy known as the fallacy of relative privation. I've already gone into significant depth as to what men's problems are and why they are important in the course of the thread, so I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Suffice it to say that some of the issues that face men have caused many of them to fall to despair, and yes, even suicide.

Also, it's generally considered poor form to like your own posts.

Edit: and yes, like mac said, this is a men's issues thread, not a straight white men's issues thread. Race and sexual orientation have nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[gimmepie]

@Chilton - People like you are part of the problem quite frankly. You disregard men's issues and say that they are less important but I think what you mean is "less publicized".

I stand by my belief that we need to stop looking at the individual genders and start focusing on human rights as a whole (I swear to God if someone says feminism does this I'll rage, I've already explained why that's not the case). The thing here though, is that we will never be able to do that whilst this belief that men's issues are insignificant is perpetuated by the lack of publicity. Women's issues are no more important than those facing men, they just get more publicity because of the large number of vocal and/or extremist advocates. As twocows keeps saying - the suffering of one group does not diminish the importance of the suffering of another.

What you were doing in your post is disregarding some pretty significant flaws in our society because they do not affect you which is precisely why advocate groups like the MRM exist.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Just throwing my two cents out there, but the reason why I don't really like MRA's is because many times there's a lot of misogynistic undertones to it. I do feel that men have a lot of issues and that sexism is definitely not a gendered issue and both sexes get a ton of ♥♥♥♥ they have to put up with due to gender roles, but I just feel like MRA's miss the point of "gender equality". The same could be said for a lot of 3rd wave Feminists too, really.

Personally, how I feel is that, gender roles in society are a dated practice that hurts everyone, which leads to sexism, and the closer we move to it's abolition on both sides is the best route.

 

[Kanzler]

you men

sorry for my words/actions/behaviours esp those that perpetuate misogyny, rape culture, and the patriarchy

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

i guess since everyone is bashing my point, i'll explain further on why mra is complete crap.

Your point was that white men don't ever face trouble in their life. Please take your privilege crap elsewhere; life is much more three dimensional than what you're illustrating. This is intended as an actual serious debate and you're pretty much resorting to ♥♥♥♥ flinging. Maybe white men in this topic aren't appreciative of your generalizing, sexist ways.

i'll be using some quotes from another website for my reasoning. this will be really detailed on some big issues about mra's.

Instead of quoting others (and essentially plagiarizing), why not use sources to back your claims?...

can you imagine what it would be like for a woman who has been abused to tell her abuser that she's pregnant and wants to abort? can you imagine what the consequences would be for her? there are a few things that could happen, but the most likely scenarios include her being forced to endure the pregnancy and keep the child against her will, thereby tying herself to her abuser in one way or another for the remainder of her life (which might not be for very long, statistically speaking), or her attempting to abort the fetus herself, which can result in serious injury (including sepsis, a perforated uterus or intestines, etc.) and even death.

Don't you think that this is more of an issue with reproductive rights as opposed to MRAs? I'm not really sure how this is even relevant to the issue. Women having issues with their rights =/= MRAs overstepping people. Maybe I'm not as knowledgeable on the subject as you are but I don't think MRAs even really tackle the issue of reproductive rights.

i've explained this before, but if rape had anything to do with any of that, women who dress modestly, don't drink, only go out during the day, only go out in groups, never go out at all, would never be raped. and yet, with a statistic of 1 in 6 women being raped in her lifetime, this happens all the time. i don't think i have to explain why this mra viewpoint is dangerous to women, but just to make a point, the reason this is dangerous is not only because of the obvious, which is that it perpetuates rape culture, ♥♥♥♥-shames and blames the victim, and prevents rape victims from coming forward and pressing charges, but also because they fully believe that because of a few false accusations, all accusations of rape must automatically be assumed to be false. this is clearly more than problematic for women who are raped.

There's actually quite a bit wrong with this...

First off, most sources agree that individuals who are raped (including men) know their attacker.

Second, the 1 in 4 statistic is likely dubious (the 1 in 6 statistic actually refers to male victims ironically enough). I've written on this one in the past, so I'll quote myself:

Then again, the 1 in 4 statistic is pretty dubious to begin with. Assuming a population of 100,000,000 adult women in the United States, this assumes that 25 million of them will be raped in their life time. In 2008, this value was around 164,000 women. This would require that women live to be over 600 years old for this population to reach this 1 in 4 value. Even if unreported rapes accounted for half of the total rape population, this would only bring this number down to 300. The statistic is likely warped. [...] Perhaps the most damning things about these "statistics" is that is's practically impossible to track exactly where these people got their information.

On "rape culture", it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. First off, preventative messages such as staying safe and carrying a knife cause as many rapes as telling people to look both ways when crossing the road causes pedestrian car accidents. Second, we're told from the ground up that rape isn't okay, at least in the west in the standard public. RAINN agrees. Also, asking people preventative questions isn't necessarily victim blaming - not to mention that most people, when someone has a close loved one who endures rape, do NOT even go there with their friend/family/whatever. The 97% walk free statistic is also ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

"all accusations of rape must automatically be assumed to be false."
This is probably the most ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ statement I've ever seen on this subject, now THAT is something I'd like to see a ♥♥♥♥ing source on.

"[/B]this is clearly more than problematic for women who are raped."

I'll quote my good o'l post again.

Males still count for a sizable number of reported rapes, making their numbers significant. In the same document it is reported that around 39,000 males were raped in 2008. This is still a significant portion of rapes - at least 5% - again, this does not include unreported rapes, and actions that legally cannot be classified as rape. For about every 4 and a third of women who report a rape, men report one. This is a significant number of people reporting rape.

According to this document, almost 20% of rapes involving a single perpetrator are caused by women. While a minority, it's important to consider that

• Due to issues listed above, a female rapist is difficult to report, and may go unreported due to social stigmas.
• 20% of a population is still incredibly significant. It implies 1 in 5 rapes were perpetrated by a woman.

[...]

Not only this, but men also face issues that women are privileged into not facing. For example, men are criticized and sometimes even murdered for wearing female clothes. Men are often expected to hide their emotions, which can lead to severe mental disorders. Men are expected to enjoy sex, which, as pointed out above, restricts their ability to report and prosecute rape. Over 75% of homicide victims are male.

not only this, but some mra's actually question the criminal status of marital rape, and when having sex outside of marriage, they have suggested the signing of a "consensual sex contract" by partners before sexual intercourse in order to protect men from accusations of rape.[...] according to mra's, women who get married to men cannot possibly be raped because men are entitled to sex with their wives, even if it's forced, and when having sex outside of marriage, instead of obtaining enthusiastic, clear consent from their partners and only performing the sexual acts that said partner has consented to, they place a ridiculous burden on their partners in the form of this ridiculous contract, which doesn't actually prevent the man from raping his sex partner; it only prevents him from being accused.

Then the individuals who claim these things should be held accountable, not 50% of the population.

to the mra's reading this right now, i hope your eyes have been opened a bit, and i hope you realize that there is no supposed war on men.

Actually, as mentioned previously, men have their own issues that stem from gender stereotypes and gender roles. Men, for example, are considered "weak" if they display emotion or sadness, and are often reared to be more violent on the premise that men are "fighters", not to mention the four points I brought up above. Men are expected to fulfill false expectations, just like women. While I may not agree with the MRAs themselves, marginalizing the issues that men face for the sake of your argument simply displays your ignorance and lack of interest in true equality.

there is, however, an increasing demand that you men take responsibility for your words, actions, behaviors, etc., particularly those that perpetuate misogyny, rape culture and the patriarchy.

good jesus you read like you came right off of the sjw side of tumblr
This statement is essentially buzzword fluff. Most men and women agree that when you put a woman down, that that's a pretty lowly offence. It's not necessary and is often uncalled for. This is not "forcing men to take responsibility for their actions". This is common decency, which most men (including the men on this forum) practice every day.

By the way, might as well quote myself again to tackle the whole "male privilege" thing:

Privilege is the basic concept that some people have elevated options due to who they are in society. It should be pointed out that people in power will typically be the most privileged in society, and those who are similar to those individuals will also have elevated privilege. At least in societies that the modern world has evolved from. This can also be applied to other cultures - Japan for instance is extremely xenophobic and white people have considerably less privilege there than the Japanese, despite being portrayed in Western media as privileged (and yes, I did live there and I did experience it first hand).

[...]

Ultimately, women are one of the very few "minorities" (calling women that honestly leaves a bad taste in my mouth…) that has almost exactly the same privileges as the "most privileged" type in that group, i.e. men. Most social issues that women face are those that are invoked by traditional child rearing practices. There are almost no barriers for women for obtaining traditionally male walks of life, outside of the fact that women are often reared to pursue "feminine" lifestyles. This is one of the few things that I do believe can be changed to promote female equality. The gap between male and female privilege is actually pretty small.

[...]

Privilege is pretty dubious in a discussion about gendered issues because the "privilege difference" is pretty small. Privilege is not measurable, cannot be put into a statistic, and cannot be absolutely interpreted. It also is an extremely complicated concept that can be modified by many factors - a wealthy white male who is mainly healthy can be born blind, after all, which practically counteracts every other possible "privilege" he could possibly have (one of my friends is practically this example). For something that you literally have to take into account every possible variation for, it makes no sense to justify your argument of generalizing all men as potential rapists through "male privilege".

there is a VERY big difference between a "war on men" and asking men to take responsibility for their actions

That's right. That's why you shouldn't continue to marginalize the issues that others face simply because you believe one side faces more bias than others.

and if there is a conflation of the two in your mind, if you equate the cessation of the continued subjugation of women with a "war on men," you have serious problems.

To be honest, I think you're the one with serious problems, based on your incredible oversimplification of the issues at hand.

_{if you want to read my original post, you may do so here}

EDIT:

you're literally missing my entire point that men's rights movement just completely destroys how women are trying to move forward in this world. that's all. i'm done. goodbye.

Your inability to uphold your argument does not mean that anyone is missing the point. If anything, your inability to read shows that you're the one missing the point. Your juvenile, sexist approach to the issue will not be missed.

 

[Kanzler]

you're literally missing my entire point that men's rights movement just completely destroys how women are trying to move forward in this world. the reason i'm trying to over emphasize things is because people just really need to understand that most mra's are just misogynistic. that's all. i'm done. goodbye.

one word: how?

but you're gone so whatever

and dang i think i'm an enfp too xD but male. apparently we're rare.

 

[Oryx]

As far as the "MRA and feminism don't step on each other", I would like to point out that Live had to come in here and remind everyone that this thread wasn't about feminism, because it became an argument about feminism. It took less than 10 posts for someone to say they're an MRA because feminism is hypocritical. The movement was then defined as standing up to extreme feminism. Regardless of how the movement is actually defined by its leaders, it has become a movement set in opposition to feminism and therefore feminist issues are deeply relevant.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

The MRA movement really should be judged on its own merits instead of the failings of other movements. Again, the MRA movement fails in my opinion because it is often plagued by many prejudices that are loud, vocal and not controlled in the movement, which talk over more rational voices. I don't call myself a Men's Rights Activist because I believe in the rights of all sexes and genders.

 

[gimmepie]

@Chilton - Nobody is bullying you, we're telling you that your views are wrong. That should be expected on a discussion/debate thread really. You're saying there's no "war on men" but you just came in here and perpetuated it and took part in it.

@Oryx - That was probably me, but I want to be clear. I'm in no way an MRA. I want to see us as a society step past all this gender crap and actually move onto to something of importance. I just made a point that MRA's are at least honest about supporting only one gender and that a part of moving past gender issues will be acknowledging that men have problems of real importance too. Once that happens we might finally have enough common ground to do away with these ridiculous movements and do some real good.

@Daigonite - I pretty much agree with everything you have said.

 

[«Chuckles»]

I dislike feminism a lot and I understand the social adversity men have. My father could have been the victim of this Child Custody Discrimination (from the reddit link). But I believe that eventually they are both going to be just as bad as each other.

 

[CelticsPhan]

What's with all of these messages getting deleted? We have the freedom to speak about whatever issues there are on this board, do we not? Anyways, this is a movement that is even harder to take seriously, considering men have had suffrage and citizenship since the beginning of time.

This is only in response to the negatives of the Feminist Movement where women take it the wrong way and antagonize the men around them. I won't say this is necessary, but I will say that feminists need to tone down their negative image of men. It's legislation's fault for whatever women lack, not the male population.

MLK is famed for the Civil Rights Movement because he took a more peaceful approach rather than say, Malcolm X, who wanted revenge on white people for their actions. This is the same reason why schools teach about MLK more than they do Malcolm X.

The "Men's Rights Movement" is only to counter the Feminist Movement because men are put down by the wrong type of feminists. Men have all the political and economic rights they require, but the few of you who are serious about this want slightly better treatment socially.

Bottom line: Women need to have a peaceful rather than vengeful approach in their Feminist Movement or else "Men's Rights" and other silly stuff will pop up.

 

[twocows]

What's with all of these messages getting deleted? We have the freedom to speak about whatever issues there are on this board, do we not? Anyways, this is a movement that is even harder to take seriously, considering men have had suffrage and citizenship since the beginning of time.

This is only in response to the negatives of the Feminist Movement where women take it the wrong way and antagonize the men around them. I won't say this is necessary, but I will say that feminists need to tone down their negative image of men. It's legislation's fault for whatever women lack, not the male population.

MLK is famed for the Civil Rights Movement because he took a more peaceful approach rather than say, Malcolm X, who wanted revenge on white people for their actions. This is the same reason why schools teach about MLK more than they do Malcolm X.

The "Men's Rights Movement" is only to counter the Feminist Movement because men are put down by the wrong type of feminists. Men have all the political and economic rights they require, but the few of you who are serious about this want slightly better treatment socially.

Bottom line: Women need to have a peaceful rather than vengeful approach in their Feminist Movement or else "Men's Rights" and other silly stuff will pop up.

I don't see what's so silly about trying to stop discriminatory practices that have driven many men to suicide.

 

[Oryx]

What's with all of these messages getting deleted? We have the freedom to speak about whatever issues there are on this board, do we not? Anyways, this is a movement that is even harder to take seriously, considering men have had suffrage and citizenship since the beginning of time.

This is only in response to the negatives of the Feminist Movement where women take it the wrong way and antagonize the men around them. I won't say this is necessary, but I will say that feminists need to tone down their negative image of men. It's legislation's fault for whatever women lack, not the male population.

MLK is famed for the Civil Rights Movement because he took a more peaceful approach rather than say, Malcolm X, who wanted revenge on white people for their actions. This is the same reason why schools teach about MLK more than they do Malcolm X.

The "Men's Rights Movement" is only to counter the Feminist Movement because men are put down by the wrong type of feminists. Men have all the political and economic rights they require, but the few of you who are serious about this want slightly better treatment socially.

Bottom line: Women need to have a peaceful rather than vengeful approach in their Feminist Movement or else "Men's Rights" and other silly stuff will pop up.

Two things (I would quote each one individually to make it clear what I'm responding to but I'm on my phone):

1. There's no inherent freedom on PC to post whatever you want.
2. I am never surprised when a movement run by men is blamed on women. Misogynist call since the dawn of time. "Yeah, they're bad...but if you just did X, they wouldn't do this bad thing so do X!" "Yeah rape is bad, but if you just dressed modestly no one would rape so dress modestly!" "Yeah my abuse is bad, but if you just kept agreeing with me it wouldn't happen, so agree from now on!" "Yeah sleeping around is bad, but if women didn't give it up so easily it wouldn't happen so women watch yourself and deny sex!" "Yeah the men's rights movement is bad, but if feminists were more gentle it wouldn't exist so be more gentle feminists!" Here's a thought: if you think it's bad, blame the people that created it. I notice there was not one word in your post arguing that the men that created the movement are responsible for their own actions - just that unrelated women are responsible for their actions because they are apparently unable to speak for themselves.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

What's with all of these messages getting deleted? We have the freedom to speak about whatever issues there are on this board, do we not? Anyways, this is a movement that is even harder to take seriously, considering men have had suffrage and citizenship since the beginning of time.

This is only in response to the negatives of the Feminist Movement where women take it the wrong way and antagonize the men around them. I won't say this is necessary, but I will say that feminists need to tone down their negative image of men. It's legislation's fault for whatever women lack, not the male population.

MLK is famed for the Civil Rights Movement because he took a more peaceful approach rather than say, Malcolm X, who wanted revenge on white people for their actions. This is the same reason why schools teach about MLK more than they do Malcolm X.

The "Men's Rights Movement" is only to counter the Feminist Movement because men are put down by the wrong type of feminists. Men have all the political and economic rights they require, but the few of you who are serious about this want slightly better treatment socially.

Bottom line: Women need to have a peaceful rather than vengeful approach in their Feminist Movement or else "Men's Rights" and other silly stuff will pop up.

The posts criticizing Feminism were removed because they were off topic. We actually had a thread about Feminism a while back, although if you want, you could make a new one.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but men do face injustices not pertinent to radical, destructive, anti-male Feminist practices. The reason for this originates in gender roles that describe men as unemotional, strong people. Thus, fighting for "men's rights" is a legitimate cause. Misandry-fueled feminism is just a subshoot of issues that men face. Because gender roles prefer men and women to comply with them in society, both men and women suffer because of them. This is why sexism truly is an egalitarian issue and not one rooted in Feminism or MRA.

 

[uoneko]

i'm not too advanced with debating, but i thought i'd just pop in here to say what i feel like from all of this.
though men do face injustices, surely, i still feel like the mrm is still a failure itself, with all my reasoning agreeing with daigonite's. a lot of mra's do seem really outspoken and loud about really gross opinions, when there are some rational speakers in the community.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Catching up on what I read above, every group will always have its extremists that give the entity they represent or claim to represent a bad name. There's such folks for just about ever religion, political party, social club, or racial, sex, and age demographic. Bad examples can be picked out for any one of them, so best not to make any judgements about a group from one person's words or actions. That being said - it's not to say you can't gain any information from studying the mentality of people within certain groups. Great example, Westborough Baptist Church. There was media coverage of many seemingly ridiculous actions taken by them, but there were interviews of the leaders of their church to back those perceptions up. MRA's, so far as I've seen, seem to be mostly passionate and non-aggressive activists for what I'd call a good cause.

That being said, I'm still not to a point where I'd consider adopting the cause or mindset for advocating 'Men's rights". Human rights, absolutely 100% in all cases I get behind. Equality as well, yes - definitely. And I agree with what someone said up above, about the tendency of society to repeatedly hammer in and reinforce the stereotype that men should be persecuted socially / emotionally / mentally for anything that isn't conducive to their predefined archetype of machismo; and girls should be subjected to the same repercussions for stepping outside their pre-conceptualized boundaries. That's a huge reason I got into another likely-obvious-by-my-avatar-group. Both genders are constantly subjected to legacy stereotypes that few challenge seriously, and it just, sucks.

What I personally feel the most prominent opponent of MRA's would be, are self justified contrarians. People who would and do claim; "Group X is more privileged than me. That's not fair. Group Y is the majority, so group Z should be compensated." It reminds me of something my grandpa used to say when he was still alive; "Sonny when did it become a crime to be successful in this country? Bury me before they take my s*** because I worked for it and they didn't."

 

[Lotus the Cat]

The negative attitudes against the movement might simply be a branding issue. By having it called "Men's Rights" it implies that there are rights that other distinguishable groups have that men don't. This is definitely not the case. Yes, there are particular issues men face, just like every other group, but men are not denied any rights.

Other movements, in comparison, still are. The gay rights movement want the right to marriage. Womens rights movements want the right to fair and equal pay (not to mention all the rights women were denied that we have gained in the past century).

 

[Nah]

The negative attitudes against the movement might simply be a branding issue. By having it called "Men's Rights" it implies that there are rights that other distinguishable groups have that men don't. This is definitely not the case. Yes, there are particular issues men face, just like every other group, but men are not denied any rights.

I pretty much agree with you on this, but:

Womens rights movements want the right to fair and equal pay

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in America it is illegal for employers to pay someone less because of gender, yes?