Transgenderism.

[Entermaid]

The oppression towards these people is really limited to cloysters and assholes nowadays, at least in the US. Only people who are either especially stupid or enjoy hurting others exhibit any of these talks in my opinion. And that's a minority of people.

I think it is a mental disorder, and one that can be remedied. No one said disorders are incurable. There's a mix of the right things you can do socially, emotionally, and in your actions to give them hope and reason to continue on. What I did was lay down my life and career in pursuit of fixing their problems, but it doesn't have to be so extreme (I am). Being empathetic is helpful.

Actually I would say that there are quite a few people who still believe homosexuality is a choice (granted, a minority), but transgenderism seems to get misunderstood from a large proportion of people.

In survey data about 50+% of Americans support work protections for transgenders (which means just under 50% are against work protections).

Most Americans are still opposed to trans people using bathrooms other than those of their assigned gender.

According to the poll conducted by CBS News, 59 percent of Americans believe that transgender individuals should use the bathroom that corresponds with the gender they were assigned at birth, while 26 percent are comfortable with self-determination when it comes to choosing which bathroom to use.

I am trying to envision a trans woman like this using the men's bathroom...that is an assault waiting to happen.

Spoiler:

I doubt a transwoman would be any more likely to sexually assault a woman in the women's bathroom than a biological woman. (That's a lot of the word "woman" in one sentence) The issues really come to a head when a person is transitioning and isn't as easily "passable". Notice, people only care and bring up cases against those who are less passable. The Planet Fitness case for instance, the woman that was upset by the transwoman said "it looked like a man". The woman was kicked out for discriminating against the transwoman, and now a good amount of people are supporting the woman who was kicked out (she was also given a year membership at another gym for free for enduring discrimination of her ability to discriminate.)

Anyway, the point I am making is that transgenderism is still an issue that is relatively new to the American Political debate, and will likely be part of a broader discussion in 2016 as the religious freedom bills (which has been passed in two states, and maybe more to come) and biologically-assigned sex bathroom bills (which are in the process of being passed in Texas/Florida).

 

[Universe]

The oppression towards these people is really limited to cunts and assholes nowadays, at least in the US. Only people who are either especially stupid or enjoy hurting others exhibit any of these talks in my opinion. And that's a minority of people.

I think it is a mental disorder, and one that can be remedied. No one said disorders are incurable. There's a mix of the right things you can do socially, emotionally, and in your actions to give them hope and reason to continue on. What I did was lay down my life and career in pursuit of fixing their problems, but it doesn't have to be so extreme (I am). Being empathetic is helpful.

"these people"-- First off, nice term there.

Are you saying that oppression is only recently limited to shitty people? By all my standings, oppression has always been done by awful people. Also, it's not a minority at all. If you're not under the oppression to begin with, then you probably shouldn't speak for them. Wait though, I'm confused about something. Did you just say that you have dedicated your life to finding a "cure" for transgenderism? I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you can't fix something that isn't broken to begin with. You are literally wasting your time.

Implying that transgenderism is a mental disorder reminds me of those "come in and get treatment to be heterosexual" clinics.

I think most of us know how well treatment like that works out.

You are basically implying that a person like myself can be "expertly treated" by some "specialist" to someday wear panties and love it. As if transgenderism can be magically cured by some empathy you don't feel and by talking things through. Having empathy for transgender people would mean you know how transgender people feel, and judging by the way you've written this post I honestly don't believe you know how it feels. It is insulting to claim that transgenderism is a mental disorder, because mental disorders can be treated and sometimes cured. The only possible "cure" for transgenderism is for them to feel comfortable in their own skin, and that isn't done by empathy and talking about things.

With trans people, I assume that no one would go through the harassment and judgement of being transgender without there being a legitimate reason (gender dysmorphia).

Also the correct term is gender dysphoria, not gender dysmorphia. At least use the right words if you're gonna talk about the thing.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

Actually I would say that there are quite a few people who still believe homosexuality is a choice (granted, a minority), but transgenderism seems to get misunderstood from a large proportion of people.

In survey data about 50+% of Americans support work protections for transgenders (which means just under 50% are against work protections).

Most Americans are still opposed to trans people using bathrooms other than those of their assigned gender.



I am trying to envision a trans woman like this using the men's bathroom...that is an assault waiting to happen.

Spoiler:

I doubt a transwoman would be any more likely to sexually assault a woman in the women's bathroom than a biological woman. (That's a lot of the word "woman" in one sentence) The issues really come to a head when a person is transitioning and isn't as easily "passable". Notice, people only care and bring up cases against those who are less passable. The Planet Fitness case for instance, the woman that was upset by the transwoman said "it looked like a man". The woman was kicked out for discriminating against the transwoman, and now a good amount of people are supporting the woman who was kicked out (she was also given a year membership at another gym for free for enduring discrimination of her ability to discriminate.)

Anyway, the point I am making is that transgenderism is still an issue that is relatively new to the American Political debate, and will likely be part of a broader discussion in 2016 as the religious freedom bills (which has been passed in two states, and maybe more to come) and biologically-assigned sex bathroom bills (which are in the process of being passed in Texas/Florida).

This is why I generally avoid being optimistic about the human race. Next time someone wants to rat on me for being a die-hard cynic, see here.

"these people"-- First off, nice term there.

Don't do that.

Are you saying that oppression is only recently limited to shitty people? By all my standings, oppression has always been done by awful people. Also, it's not a minority at all. If you're not under the oppression to begin with, then you probably shouldn't speak for them. Wait though, I'm confused about something. Did you just say that you have dedicated your life to finding a "cure" for transgenderism? I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you can't fix something that isn't broken to begin with. You are literally wasting your time.

I'm referring to solving their problem. You didn't understand that, so that's on you, not me. I'd like to see them get the bodily change they want to feel better about themselves. If you think that's such a crime then that's your opinion.

Implying that transgenderism is a mental disorder reminds me of those "come in and get treatment to be heterosexual" clinics.

Transgenderism and sexuality are erroneously lumped together. I see the fact that one is in the wrong body as a problem, and what I do with problems is I solve them. That's why I advocate for helping people who are trans in having opportunities to make their transition as easily and seamlessly as possible.

You are basically implying that a person like myself can be "expertly treated" by some "specialist" to someday wear panties and love it. As if transgenderism can be magically cured by some empathy you don't feel and by talking things through. Having empathy for transgender people would mean you know how transgender people feel, and judging by the way you've written this post I honestly don't believe you know how it feels. It is insulting to claim that transgenderism is a mental disorder, because mental disorders can be treated and sometimes cured. The only possible "cure" for transgenderism is for them to feel comfortable in their own skin, and that isn't done by empathy and talking about things.

I was fully willing to die at a moment's notice by the mere wish of someone. That's how empathetic and selfless I was with them, you'd think I'd know how to make them feel happy if they happened to be trans. The cure is a woman's body for them, and how they want to dress, and the things they want to do. I don't know what you're talking about here.

Also the correct term is gender dysphoria, not gender dysmorphia.

When you want to correct someone else, mind to quote them so the person you were talking to before doesn't read it wrong.

 

[Ivysaur]

Well, please try to explain your side better, because literally every single person I have shown this quote to has understood the same thing when you say "fixing"- especially considering you start if off by declaring something much akin to homosexuality as a "mental disorder".

I think it is a mental disorder, and one that can be remedied. No one said disorders are incurable. There's a mix of the right things you can do socially, emotionally, and in your actions to give them hope and reason to continue on. What I did was lay down my life and career in pursuit of fixing their problems, but it doesn't have to be so extreme (I am). Being empathetic is helpful.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

Well, please try to explain your side better, because literally every single person I have shown this quote to has understood the same thing when you say "fixing"- especially considering you start if off by declaring something much akin to homosexuality as a "mental disorder".

Here :)

Don't deprecate yourself. One can only know by learning, we were all ignorant of this and then some at some point lol

Often times those who are transgender don't have the parental and/or financial support to obtain the medical care they need to transition before puberty sets in. It's a travesty that there are countries both with socialized medicine and with private enterprise that don't finance any treatment whatsoever for this disorder. I have the best medical insurance available (BlueCross BlueShield PPO, Federal) and am about to jump ship to Medicaid to pay for a hospitalization, and after poking around a bit some months ago with their call numbers I learned that neither of them have any coverage for gender reassignment surgery. However, Medicare apparently funds it but it was my understanding Medicare is for the elderly (don't they have a hard time with surgery anyway?) while Medicaid is for those who are particularly disabled. While I have read news that Obamacare is now able to support it, I can't find anything on Medicaid coverage and BlueCross BlueShield bluntly denies it.

As you can see here the only viable solution is for someone to amass the money to pay for it themselves. Few people can do that on their own. Imagine how much stress and pain that adds, eh? They're lucky if they can get together to get reassigned.

It just reminds me of how I was supposed to fix all of that, and make money to fix it.....

This should be one of my strong topics.

I've known both friends and lovers who were transgender, and can say its a rather delicate thing. But if they know you care, prodding for boundaries shouldn't be difficult at all. I think talking to them and sharing things with them - especially things that are gender-related - with them as if they were just their desired gender (within logic, of course) is a really good course of action. It's just another attribute of theirs, it's not something extraordinary - and if you love them take care to show what you can do to help change it.

 

[Ivysaur]

This should be one of my strong topics.

I've known both friends and lovers who were transgender, and can say its a rather delicate thing. But if they know you care, prodding for boundaries shouldn't be difficult at all. I think talking to them and sharing things with them - especially things that are gender-related - with them as if they were just their desired gender (within logic, of course) is a really good course of action. It's just another attribute of theirs, it's not something extraordinary - and if you love them take care to show what you can do to help change it.

Do you realize you never really explain anything clearly enough? Do you realize that those lines sound really bad when you say you are talking about something you consider it a "mental disorder", right? If your vagueness leads literally everybody I have shown this post to to misunderstand it, maybe there is something lacking in your expression.

Also, what does the "within reason" even mean.

 

[Her]

bear in mind that one doesn't have to have gender dysphoria to be transgender

 

[Universe]

Don't deprecate yourself. One can only know by learning, we were all ignorant of this and then some at some point lol

Often times those who are transgender don't have the parental and/or financial support to obtain the medical care they need to transition before puberty sets in. It's a travesty that there are countries both with socialized medicine and with private enterprise that don't finance any treatment whatsoever for this disorder. I have the best medical insurance available (BlueCross BlueShield PPO, Federal) and am about to jump ship to Medicaid to pay for a hospitalization, and after poking around a bit some months ago with their call numbers I learned that neither of them have any coverage for gender reassignment surgery. However, Medicare apparently funds it but it was my understanding Medicare is for the elderly (don't they have a hard time with surgery anyway?) while Medicaid is for those who are particularly disabled. While I have read news that Obamacare is now able to support it, I can't find anything on Medicaid coverage and BlueCross BlueShield bluntly denies it.

As you can see here the only viable solution is for someone to amass the money to pay for it themselves. Few people can do that on their own. Imagine how much stress and pain that adds, eh? They're lucky if they can get together to get reassigned.

It just reminds me of how I was supposed to fix all of that, and make money to fix it.....

This should be one of my strong topics.

I've known both friends and lovers who were transgender, and can say its a rather delicate thing. But if they know you care, prodding for boundaries shouldn't be difficult at all. I think talking to them and sharing things with them - especially things that are gender-related - with them as if they were just their desired gender (within logic, of course) is a really good course of action. It's just another attribute of theirs, it's not something extraordinary - and if you love them take care to show what you can do to help change it.

In neither of these posts did you outline "I'm going to help transgender people transition when I grow up". Literally nowhere. You stated situations, with certain people.

But you know what you did outline which lead to this?

I think it is a mental disorder, and one that can be remedied. No one said disorders are incurable. There's a mix of the right things you can do socially, emotionally, and in your actions to give them hope and reason to continue on. What I did was lay down my life and career in pursuit of fixing their problems, but it doesn't have to be so extreme (I am). Being empathetic is helpful.

You still implied it's a mental disorder. You stated it has a cure without outright saying, "give the people their surgery". You also said you have empathy for transgender people when you aren't transgender. What you mean to say is that you sympathize with us, because that's the correct term.

I misunderstood nothing. You were unclear.

Be clear if you don't want people calling you out.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

In neither of these posts did you outline "I'm going to help transgender people transition when I grow up". Literally nowhere.

But you know what you did outline which lead to this?



You still implied it's a mental disorder. You stated it has a cure without outright saying, "give the people their surgery". You also said you have empathy for transgender people when you aren't transgender. What you mean to say is that you sympathize with us, because that's the correct term.

I misunderstood nothing. You were unclear.

Be clear if you don't want people calling you out.

You know, what I find most amazing is that you guys pieced everything you wanted to know together anyway. Why are we attacking me, again?

I can't be having panic attacks because you want to prove a point, and make some stand. I clearly have no disagreement with you. What's up?

 

[Entermaid]

Also the correct term is gender dysphoria, not gender dysmorphia. At least use the right words if you're gonna talk about the thing.

Oops auto correct and the tone of the response is just annoyingly incendiary to be honest as a person who has been a supporter of transgender people.

Just simply say, "I think you meant..."

This thread is generally getting incendiary for no reason.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

Oops auto correct and the tone of the response is just annoyingly incendiary to be honest as a person who has been a supporter of transgender people.

Just simply say, "I think you meant..."

This thread is generally getting incendiary for no reason.

I'm being attacked and ridiculed over a lack of words on my part. Their argument against me consists of words I forgot to mention (!), as if that validates the load of bullshit they've gone to implying and suggesting I might maybe think? What?

This is a mess. I can't be having this, not for my health. The panic is why I left PC so many times... not again.

 

[Lucid]

Do what makes you happy.

 

[Melody]

I do and I don't see where the difficulty is?? Like, someone who isn't comfortable with their physical gender and would rather be the opposite. Ask them, find out how they'd like to be treated, remember it and you are golden.

If by "get" you mean "can you believe some people feel like that like really omg", then I'm afraid there isn't much to "get" there- it's the same thing as when some boys are sexually attracted to other boys. You don't "get" it, you accept it's something that happens and they have all the right in the world to feel that way.

This. Went you said it better than I could.

As someone who is transgender herself; I can say there's just no better way of putting it. You accept that it is; I had to come to that acceptance of myself too, there isn't that much to get...just that it is who they are.

I grew up in and have since moved back to Texas. In Texas there's a metric ton of intolerance and ignorance. There aren't resources for us. The few that do exist are few and far between. People don't get us and they erase us, ignore us and otherwise pretend we're not serious; or downright discriminate against us because they don't "get it." As a result I internalized a lot of things that made it hard to accept myself. But I finally did come to terms with it.

So, Newsflash! You don't have to "Get" it. Just be a better person; accept it; and do what you can to not belittle us or discriminate. It's ok to ask someone what their preferred pronouns are, Personally I prefer female pronouns.

 

[Nick]

stop fighting in my thread or i'll fight you irl.

 

[Nah]

I thought I was in D&D, uh, the Round Table, for a second there, but apparently I'm still in the Treehouse.....

Anyway, I don't have any problem with transgender people. I don't get why some people do. Eh, well, actually I do. Some people are little shits is the short version.

 

[moon]

No, I don't really get it or see the point of it. But that is probably because I have no such person close to me irl, so I've never gotten used to it. Actually I've never met such a person at all. On the internet, it's easier I imagine. I do have rl friends who are very feminine men or very masculine girls though. Like, one girl you'd easily mistake for a guy anytime. They still don't try to present as the opposite gender. So yeah, maybe I'd understand it better if I knew people who called themselves transgender more closely.

And if anyone is going to feel offended by this post, I'm just going to laugh at you, seriously. In no way do I look down on transgender people or respect them less, as long as they behave like decent people. Just how I'd judge any person I meet or talk to, gender is irrelevant in that case. The op asked if I got it and I admit that no, I don't.

 

[Universe]

TT mods have decided this thread has gotten heavy enough that it's probably better suited to RT.

*woosh*

 

[Sopheria]

Well, I'm transgender, so I guess you could say I "get it" in a manner of speaking. It's not something I talk about too much, since I just try to live as normally as possible and all.

I don't think it's really anything to "get" or "not get". Gender dysphoria and all the depression that comes with it isn't a nice place to be, so just be glad you don't have to go through it :P

 

[Psychic]

I think what a lot of people here are missing is that "getting it" doesn't require understanding the exact thoughts and feelings that trans people have. You can be tolerant and understanding of gay people without being attracted to the same sex yourself. You don't need to want to identify as another gender in order to "get" trans people.

I "get it" as much as any cisgendered person can get it. I understand that this is something I will never have to go through or experience personally, but that for many people this is a part of their identity and something they cannot control. I learned about and educated myself on the subject and read the experiences of trans people before I met or became close with any trans individuals, and have never had a problem.

What I don't get is (admittedly this will sound a bit cruel) trans people who seem far to much like their original gender, like when someone becomes a woman yet still has a really manly voice and manly mannerisms rather than acting really feminine (but dress as a woman) and I am thinking am more feminine than you and am a guy.

The thing is that those things are often unintentional, though it depends on the person. Some things are really hard to change, like mannerisms or your natural voice, especially without some help (whether from hormones, surgery or a coach). Some trans people work really hard on these things but may never be able to change, while others may not have the financial means to do so. Even so, some trans people are comfortable having both "male" and "female" aspects of themselves, while others make a conscious effort to "pass" as their gender, so people won't notice that they're trans. It really varies.

I try to. I like to think of myself as open-minded, and I do my best to be supportive if I find out a friend is transgender, but I have to admit a lot of the time I realize I really don't understand it. I have to look up the definition of transgender, transexual, intersex, and so on all the time because I'm constantly mixing up my terminology and that in itself is a pretty clear indicator to me that it never actually sinks in.

I think I understand everything when it comes to the binary genders, but I have to admit I don't really understand agender/genderfluid and especially like... tumblr-style gender, I want to say? (Because Tumblr is the only place I see it. :s) Like people who make up their own pronouns because they don't want to use "her" or "him". And I don't mean people who want a singular "they" or a gender-neutral pronoun like "xe/xer/xis"... like I have a friend whose preferred pronoun is "fey/feys/feyself" (I think?) and that I really don't get. I had no problem making fun of that kind of thing until I found out I was actually friends with someone who prefers it. Now I really don't know what to think about it because I respect them... but like that is so, so far from a personal experience that I can wrap my head around that I just don't see myself ever going further than adopting a gender-neutral pronoun. It sounds so ridiculous to me and personally I feel going that far probably sets the whole movement back since most of society still doesn't even understand the basics, but at the same time, I fret about whether I'm just not going far enough to understand... ._.

It's just a complicated topic all-around and as a result I just sort of try to avoid it tbh. As a cissexual, my opinion's pretty invalid in all of this anyway, I guess.

To be fair, there are a lot of concepts and terminologies to get used to, so having to look things up is not only normal, but encouraged! As long as you're open-minded, you'll get the hang of it eventually.

Tumblr is a whole other layer of weirdness, and is definitely not a standard by which to judge the majority of the community.

The thing is that you don't have to adopt another pronoun. Nobody is going to ask you to do this. The point of having them is that people who do want to use another pronoun have the option to do so, not to force cisgender people to adopt it.

You're right that it will take most people awhile to get even the most basic stuff, but we can't let that stop people from doing what they need to do to feel comfortable and welcome.

The oppression towards these people is really limited to cunts and assholes nowadays, at least in the US. Only people who are either especially stupid or enjoy hurting others exhibit any of these talks in my opinion. And that's a minority of people.

I really haven't seen much evidence that this is the case. Trans people are still really only accepted in certain pockets of society, and otherwise face an insane amount of ignorance, discrimination and even violence to this day. Even in really liberal, LGBTQ-friendly cities, it can be really hard to be trans. It will be some time until society as a whole can accept trans people to even the same extent that we accept gay people (which itself still has quite a ways to go).

~Psychic

 

[Cherrim]

It kinda looks like the fight in this thread happened over a misunderstanding of terminology tbh. Transgenderism IS different from transsexualism, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong but:

Transgenderism = gender does not match gender assigned by society (usu. gender is assigned by sex)
Transsexualism = sex does not match sex assigned at birth (often "fixed" by transitioning to the opposite sex, sometimes culminating in surgey)

[user]Inyotef[/user] keeps talking about reassignment surgery and all that, which is completely irrelevant to gender because your gender (sort of) has nothing to do with your genitalia or body. (It's usually associated very strongly to it because of how gender is typically assigned, but in the case of a transgenderism thread, I assume we're very specifically supposed to consider gender identity on its own without physical sex.) Gender is not a softer or more politically correct way of saying "sex" in this context. It is a completely different thing from someone's physical sex. People who are physically female who do not feel comfortable presenting as female do not necessarily want to get rid of all their female parts and transition to being a physical male... they just want to present differently--be that as male (ie, probably acting/dressing as a stereotypical "tomboy") or agender, or whatever else there is.

Unless I'm just confused by the terminology too...?

To be fair, there are a lot of concepts and terminologies to get used to, so having to look things up is not only normal, but encouraged! As long as you're open-minded, you'll get the hang of it eventually.

Tumblr is a whole other layer of weirdness, and is definitely not a standard by which to judge the majority of the community.

The thing is that you don't have to adopt another pronoun. Nobody is going to ask you to do this. The point of having them is that people who do want to use another pronoun have the option to do so, not to force cisgender people to adopt it.

You're right that it will take most people awhile to get even the most basic stuff, but we can't let that stop people from doing what they need to do to feel comfortable and welcome.

I didn't mean adopting another pronoun for myself, I meant it was hard to force the switch in my mind to start calling people by pronouns that, for all intents and purposes, don't exist. (The switch to start calling someone "she" when I've previously called them "he" for the time I've known them is also difficult but... at least those words exist, you know? So it's not exactly what I find hard to wrap my head around.)

I know Tumblr isn't the right standard for the world but it still stands that someone I am friends with wants to present as... a pronoun adopted from a made-up word that has to do with fairies (?). And prefers that people use that pronoun to talk to/describe them. If they just wanted to be called the opposite gender binary pronoun, of course you would say that I should be using that new pronoun for them... but it doesn't feel that simple when new/unknown words come into the equation. So it's hard for someone like me who doesn't experience gender dysphoria in the first place to know where to draw the line, or even whether there's a line to be drawn, you know?