Transgenderism.

[Nick]

The only reason I made this thread is that yes, I do get that some people don't align with the gender associated with their sex. I totally understand that. But the thing I don't get is some transgender people (a small portion, compared to the number who do follow and support them) define themselves based on gender binaries assigned by society that they claim to not follow. So, if you don't follow or support gender binaries, why do you identify as the opposite gender? Why not be cisgender with a different definition of the characteristics of your biologically assigned sex? It just contradicts itself, because if you didn't support or follow the binaries, you wouldn't identify as transgender.

 

[Entermaid]

It kinda looks like the fight in this thread happened over a misunderstanding of terminology tbh. Transgenderism IS different from transsexualism, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong but:

Transgenderism = gender does not match gender assigned by society (usu. gender is assigned by sex)
Transsexualism = sex does not match sex assigned at birth (often "fixed" by transitioning to the opposite sex, sometimes culminating in surgey)

I think you have it right.

These terms can become even more tricky given that many "Transexual" people identify using the term "transgender". Transgender has become an umbrella term for anyone who doesn't match the assigned gender of their birth sex. Whereas, transexual is not used in the same sense.

 

[Universe]

Transgender = An umbrella term that refers to those with identities that cross over, move between, or otherwise challenge the socially constructed border between the genders. While this can include medical or social transition, it may not.

Transexual = A person who does not identify with the sex they were assigned at birth and wish, whether successful or not, to realign their gender and their sex through medical intervention. It's also used to describe people who have transitioned.

idk, hope this clears things up. they are different, but mostly slightly. both terms still refer to people who do not identify with their assigned gender/sex.

 

[Melody]

I know Tumblr isn't the right standard for the world but it still stands that someone I am friends with wants to present as... a pronoun adopted from a made-up word that has to do with fairies (?). And prefers that people use that pronoun to talk to/describe them. If they just wanted to be called the opposite gender binary pronoun, of course you would say that I should be using that new pronoun for them... but it doesn't feel that simple when new/unknown words come into the equation. So it's hard for someone like me who doesn't experience gender dysphoria in the first place to know where to draw the line, or even whether there's a line to be drawn, you know?

Yeah...you probably shouldn't be listening to those silly tumblrinas and goofy people. There's a lot of things on tumblr that are just...ugh...so ridiculous and stupid. So yeah; definitely don't judge us by that. As a transgendered person; I cringe when I hear people make references to tumblr; because that's not what we are like at all!

I mean those fake-pronoun lists are cute and all; and might be fun among close friends; but yeah they simply don't work out in the wider world; and publishing it on tumblr does not magically make it such a word that would.

 

[Universe]

I know Tumblr isn't the right standard for the world but it still stands that someone I am friends with wants to present as... a pronoun adopted from a made-up word that has to do with fairies (?). And prefers that people use that pronoun to talk to/describe them. If they just wanted to be called the opposite gender binary pronoun, of course you would say that I should be using that new pronoun for them... but it doesn't feel that simple when new/unknown words come into the equation. So it's hard for someone like me who doesn't experience gender dysphoria in the first place to know where to draw the line, or even whether there's a line to be drawn, you know?

You can definitely draw the line right there.

"Nounself" pronouns are a giant joke and they make transgender people look really bad. It's like people on Tumblr just started crossing their otherkin tendencies into pronouns as a fad and that is just so inappropriate. It's really disrespectful to people who actually take their transgenderism seriously, who really fight to get people to use the correct pronouns on a daily basis.

 

[Cherrim]

Yeah...you probably shouldn't be listening to those silly tumblrinas and goofy people. There's a lot of things on tumblr that are just...ugh...so ridiculous and stupid. So yeah; definitely don't judge us by that. As a transgendered person; I cringe when I hear people make references to tumblr; because that's not what we are like at all!

I mean those fake-pronoun lists are cute and all; and might be fun among close friends; but yeah they simply don't work out in the wider world; and publishing it on tumblr does not magically make it such a word that would.

You can definitely draw the line right there.

"Nounself" pronouns are a giant joke and they make transgender people look really bad. It's like people on Tumblr just started crossing their otherkin tendencies into pronouns as a fad and that is just so inappropriate. It's really disrespectful to people who actually take their transgenderism seriously, who really fight to get people to use the correct pronouns on a daily basis.

Honestly, I agree with both of you, but this person like... they're smart. As in masters degree in a logical field. In just about any other matter I wouldn't question their judgment for a second, so when it comes to this sort of thing, how seriously should I be taking their choice of gender pronouns? I'm evidently not using it in a place they can't see/don't know about, but otherwise? I just kind of avoid the issue altogether. How do you approach something like this without just sounding like an asshole to the person & any of their friends who think similarly? :/

But also, once you switch off the binary genders he/she, it's not like there's any clear choices to use. In my first post in this thread I mentioned the options of singular they (generally my preferred, as far as referring to other people with unknown gender), xe (and then xer/xis? I forget already ._.), and then... the nounselfs. Like I know a lot of the nounselfs are completely ridiculous because seriously, who is ever going to identify as potatoself, but since English doesn't actually have a standard genderless pronoun, I don't really see the difference between making up your own to bridge the gap between him/her. I guess I just wish people didn't make it sound so silly? Because it definitely makes just about everyone go "lol this whole thing is stupid" when it's not, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it.

And then I also wonder, how far does this go? If we don't recognize the silly ones, sure, but how far is too silly? I know there's the obvious, but then there's also like... genderfluid is pretty weird to most people. Sometimes you feel female, sometimes you feel male? Or occasionally in-between? When it comes to pronouns, that's ridiculously inconvenient for the world at large since pronouns are supposed to be useful to refer to someone and if you don't know whether they're identifying as male or female or whatever, how do you know what to use? (Most people are probably really chill about this because they get that it's complicated, but there are still also plenty of people who do get kind of riled up if you aren't using the right pronoun, whatever it may be.) Where does that fit in? Where do the in-betweens go? This is pretty much what my confusion generally boils down to. It's just... so difficult for me, with no actual concept of finding gender so important/restraining (?) that I have to identify with another, to really get a lot of this.

God I'm sorry if I sound ridiculous. At this point I'm probably like halfway between "tumblrites are stupid" and "ok but what if i actually insult someone by assuming [x]"...

 

[Melody]

Honestly, I agree with both of you, but this person like... they're smart. As in masters degree in a logical field. In just about any other matter I wouldn't question their judgment for a second, so when it comes to this sort of thing, how seriously should I be taking their choice of gender pronouns? I'm evidently not using it in a place they can't see/don't know about, but otherwise? I just kind of avoid the issue altogether. How do you approach something like this without just sounding like an asshole to the person & any of their friends who think similarly? :/

But also, once you switch off the binary genders he/she, it's not like there's any clear choices to use. In my first post in this thread I mentioned the options of singular they (generally my preferred, as far as referring to other people with unknown gender), xe (and then xer/xis? I forget already ._.), and then... the nounselfs. Like I know a lot of the nounselfs are completely ridiculous because seriously, who is ever going to identify as potatoself, but since English doesn't actually have a standard genderless pronoun, I don't really see the difference between making up your own to bridge the gap between him/her. I guess I just wish people didn't make it sound so silly? Because it definitely makes just about everyone go "lol this whole thing is stupid" when it's not, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it.

And then I also wonder, how far does this go? If we don't recognize the silly ones, sure, but how far is too silly? I know there's the obvious, but then there's also like... genderfluid is pretty weird to most people. Sometimes you feel female, sometimes you feel male? Or occasionally in-between? When it comes to pronouns, that's ridiculously inconvenient for the world at large since pronouns are supposed to be useful to refer to someone and if you don't know whether they're identifying as male or female or whatever, how do you know what to use? (Most people are probably really chill about this because they get that it's complicated, but there are still also plenty of people who do get kind of riled up if you aren't using the right pronoun, whatever it may be.) Where does that fit in? Where do the in-betweens go? This is pretty much what my confusion generally boils down to. It's just... so difficult for me, with no actual concept of finding gender so important/restraining (?) that I have to identify with another, to really get a lot of this.

God I'm sorry if I sound ridiculous. At this point I'm probably like halfway between "tumblrites are stupid" and "ok but what if i actually insult someone by assuming [x]"...

...Honestly I'd question anyone using nounself pronouns. They make no sense at all; at least settle for singuar they or a spivak pronoun. At least the spivak pronouns make sense. The noun-based ones are just satirical in my opinion; and painfully so to say the least.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

It kinda looks like the fight in this thread happened over a misunderstanding of terminology tbh. Transgenderism IS different from transsexualism, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong but:

Transgenderism = gender does not match gender assigned by society (usu. gender is assigned by sex)
Transsexualism = sex does not match sex assigned at birth (often "fixed" by transitioning to the opposite sex, sometimes culminating in surgey)

[user]Inyotef[/user] keeps talking about reassignment surgery and all that, which is completely irrelevant to gender because your gender (sort of) has nothing to do with your genitalia or body. (It's usually associated very strongly to it because of how gender is typically assigned, but in the case of a transgenderism thread, I assume we're very specifically supposed to consider gender identity on its own without physical sex.) Gender is not a softer or more politically correct way of saying "sex" in this context. It is a completely different thing from someone's physical sex. People who are physically female who do not feel comfortable presenting as female do not necessarily want to get rid of all their female parts and transition to being a physical male... they just want to present differently--be that as male (ie, probably acting/dressing as a stereotypical "tomboy") or agender, or whatever else there is.

Unless I'm just confused by the terminology too...?

This has got me laughing, I'll be honest

Khilia was never the best with English, she always called it transgenderism, we both knew what it was in any case. I think we're all on the same page here. Pardon my ignorance.

 

[Entermaid]

Honestly, I agree with both of you, but this person like... they're smart. As in masters degree in a logical field. In just about any other matter I wouldn't question their judgment for a second, so when it comes to this sort of thing, how seriously should I be taking their choice of gender pronouns? I'm evidently not using it in a place they can't see/don't know about, but otherwise? I just kind of avoid the issue altogether. How do you approach something like this without just sounding like an asshole to the person & any of their friends who think similarly? :/

But also, once you switch off the binary genders he/she, it's not like there's any clear choices to use. In my first post in this thread I mentioned the options of singular they (generally my preferred, as far as referring to other people with unknown gender), xe (and then xer/xis? I forget already ._.), and then... the nounselfs. Like I know a lot of the nounselfs are completely ridiculous because seriously, who is ever going to identify as potatoself, but since English doesn't actually have a standard genderless pronoun, I don't really see the difference between making up your own to bridge the gap between him/her. I guess I just wish people didn't make it sound so silly? Because it definitely makes just about everyone go "lol this whole thing is stupid" when it's not, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it.

And then I also wonder, how far does this go? If we don't recognize the silly ones, sure, but how far is too silly? I know there's the obvious, but then there's also like... genderfluid is pretty weird to most people. Sometimes you feel female, sometimes you feel male? Or occasionally in-between? When it comes to pronouns, that's ridiculously inconvenient for the world at large since pronouns are supposed to be useful to refer to someone and if you don't know whether they're identifying as male or female or whatever, how do you know what to use? (Most people are probably really chill about this because they get that it's complicated, but there are still also plenty of people who do get kind of riled up if you aren't using the right pronoun, whatever it may be.) Where does that fit in? Where do the in-betweens go? This is pretty much what my confusion generally boils down to. It's just... so difficult for me, with no actual concept of finding gender so important/restraining (?) that I have to identify with another, to really get a lot of this.

God I'm sorry if I sound ridiculous. At this point I'm probably like halfway between "tumblrites are stupid" and "ok but what if i actually insult someone by assuming [x]"...

To my understanding if he or she doesn't fit the person's identity, don't use the pronouns, rather use the first name. That way, it's almost impossible to offend anyone. It's easy to insert [name] instead of him or her, though when it come to himself or herself, I avoid forming sentences with that structure because I'm not sure what to do.

 

[Her]

I find it easier to use they/themselves/etc in most situations relating to a person's identity unless they specify a gender-specific pronoun. I'm yet to find a situation where they/related words stemming from they aren't grammatically appropriate, though I hardly care to put grammar over gender identity.