I'm going to argue this. DP was the series where Jindai returned, you had Haruka's multi-episode cameo, the League featured cameos from some of Satoshi's older Pokémon, there was the Rumika reappearance, that Raichu episode, and other, minor callbacks to things that happened before. It had about as much of a connection to past sagas as AG did, in that it tells its own stories but the characters aren't completely unaware of things that happened before nor do they act inconsistently with the personas they'd established over the previous decade or so.
I get that you might not be a fan of the DP episodes, and that's fine. But even if you prefer AG or OS, DP is very much in line with what came before. It's no more 'shallow' than either of those series were (I don't get that complaint, honestly. Pocket Monsters has never been a deep anime, in any incarnation), and I honestly thought what it did add - Satoshi vs. Shinji, Hikozaru, and Team Galactic - were the kind of interesting and well-done plots that previous sagas either never tried or just botched completely. Even Hikari's arc and character development, even though they center around Contests again, differed from Haruka's in enough ways that it's not a rehash at all.
If there's any place that this series jumps the shark, I don't believe that it'd be with DP. It's certainly not a perfect saga, and there are things that OS/AG do better, but the same could be said for both of those as well. But for the most part, Jouto-Sinnoh are pretty consistent with each other, with AG and DP both adding something new to their respective series that they can also be looked at on their own merits. And really, shouldn't that be ideal? I don't want a series that feels stale - which, and I know you don't agree, is what I felt happened with the majority of Jouto - but I also don't want BW.
References to past existed or older characters, pokemon were brought back when it was convenient for plot. Theres no denying that.
But when looking at bigger picture , pokemon anime was hardly treated like one big story with well established cast, consistent development and cogent plot slowly evolving forward and pushing new boundries?
Outside of Ash keeping somewhat his maturity and experience, everything else went down the drain due to frequent cast revamps from Johto and onwards. Such as so called strong friendships, unity and bonds created between Ash and his companions stopping to exist or mean anything in longer run due to never being maintained once main character is replace. His friends storylines, struggles, relationships and plots being left forgotten in dust with anything writes established about them before fading in oblivion. Once they get one obligatory cameo being erased from face of existence.
Compared to other anime where writers keep their characters relevant until very end with noone ending abandoned building on what they started about someone in first lace playing important role in future generations(Inazuma Eleven Go, Fairy Tail, Naruto, One Piece, Monsuno etc come to mind).
Having direction in mind to follow and reach sooner or later and stable cast which defines those anime providing identity to it, recognizable feature about them.
Not to mention whatever started storyline and development created and established with Ash and cast in one generation never receive continuation , having pokemon with on going plot whoch lasts for more than one generation. With writers dropping everything and doing complete restart with only Ash. Pikachu and TR remaining part of universe.Making things look out of place due to no background and connections to history which would give coverage on previous growth and achievements.
Thsts why i refer to Johto as being last real generation where journey and plot was still treated relatively consistent. Having characteristics of abve mentioned long running shonen shows. In sense of having established group of characters in who people can emotionally invest opening door toward better on going plot , actual development of friendship between companions and more compact story.
Since like its case with other anime out there we would have established cast with already created groundwork going forward developing in more substantial way, experience growth of their friendship allowing for more fresh, endearing dynamic, with more continuity filled storyline allowing to transfer it to multiple regions building up on it. Along with creating loyal following among fandom .
Im in agreement how different stories, experiences, challenges are required to be implemented in story to avoid staleness, But my point is how from whatever issues anime may have suffered in past it surely wasnt from having same cast, but poor decisions and lack of experience in handling certain number of things adequately.
Plenty anime keep same cast for hundreds of episodes and anime is still fresh, enjoyable and memorable to viewers. Why?
Because they invest more in established cast taking them forward.
They change and build on interactions between their characters, have them gradually change and grow as persons shedding new, unique light on characterization adding more substance and keep things interesting with new subplots being opened in their stories to have viewer see them in different/fresh light and find out things he didn't knew about originally.
Expand on their current role by giving them new interests and quirks giving to fans something they didn't knew about him until now etc.
Hence why i disagree with statements how keeping same characters would make anime "awfully stale" with all depending on writing and how much effort and work author is wiling to invest into story.
Saying otherwise would be very limiting view on such things.
P.S. Just because i dont condone direction which writers took this show. Not being for better in longer run for story integrity(in my opinion at very least), does not mean i dislike Sinnoh.
On contrary it was era of pokemon which brought several groundbreaking changes to anime. It had well structured plots. Best handled introduction of villains(Team Galactic), gradual dive into their motives and goals attempted to reach and while albeit anticlimactic. Still fairly decent conclusion.
It had arguably best handled rivalry with Paul himself bringing new layer of complexity to Ash journey on trying to become pokemon master leaving his mark on world. Going beyond typical adversary questioning whole idea of treating pokemon as your friends and raising them through lot of patience and care.
Female companion who had most consistent and detailed development as far as advancement in goal goes with Dawn almost reaching her destination.In personality and emotional field i still think May and Misty changed more(whether for better or worse is subjective).
Along with battling being usually of high quality in Sinnoh characterized by lot of strategy,diverse techniques and exciting attempts to outmaneuver opponent .
Yes i liked DP series(more than XY, Battle FRontier, XY and first half of Johto) and when looking at each saga individualy like i covered in my first post. Each of them had its flaws and positive sides.
But thats beside the point and what problems i tried to address are present in pokemon series. When looking at all of regions simultaneously. I dont expect that others see from where im coming from though. Because its pretty controversial topic i brought up in first place.
But, again, we're drifting away from the point here. I'm not denying that inconsistencies existed in DP, just as they existed in the OS and AG. What I'm saying is that DP kept a sense of continuity with past series, as one can see through the past callbacks to prior series, just as AG did.
I still maintain belief Johto had more continuity since it was treated as direct sequel to what happened in Kanto, Orabge accompanied with lot of returning characters from there(Koga sister Aya, Ritchie, Duplica, mr. Goodshow, photographer Todd etc). Lot of flashbacks and recalling on what Ash achieved before and his friends.
And AG had arguably more references to history as well, even more so thanks to chronicles keeping ties to pretty much every major character from anime existing in universe and influencing plot in one or another way. Something which in DP was done with just select few choosed characters who made comeback.
I'm not embarrassed at anyone. I'm saying that I get the impression that some fans who try and add depth to a series where it never existed are really just saying that out of embarrassment of being fans in the first place. That instead of accepting that they like or used to like a really simple series aimed at children, they make it out to be something it never was to justify their enjoyment of it. I obviously can't say for certain that's what you, DBZ fan, or Famon are doing, but that's the way it reads to me.
For record i never tried to present pokemon anime as concept which had highly mature elements and lot of tangling storylines in any period of its existence.
BUT those inconsistencies and illogical things which happened in Original series you refer to were head writer for that time Takeshi Shudo attempts to turn pokemon in deeper, more substantial anime. Which has more complex characters and themes not limiting itself just to preschool kids, but teens, adults, elders etc turning it in family anime. Appealing to all age groups.
Since his ideas encountered resistance, especially with one particular person who was at higher position as staff goes. "Omae Sama" he often brought up in his later published blogs would explain why story in OS had roller coaster ride of both its higher and lower points. Not having fluid ride.
He wanted pokemon anime which has stable cast which sticks together and form part of some bigger storyline everyone try to resolve while puirsuing their dreams and ambition growing through it. Group of protagonists with complexity to their emotions, friends which depends on each other, support themselves and make them feel relevant and significant to anime with their impact on show meaning something in longer run.
Tangible storytelling which experience no resets with Ash and others maintaining previous maturity, knowledge and collected experience applying it to new situations and going through deeper, multi dimrnsionasl growth evolving as persons and trainers. With stoiry buiulding on itself and going firward with games not dictating its pace and way progression would be constructed to such visible degree like it became apparent from AG and onwards.
Most of all he wanted that Jessie, James and Meowth are treated as more than just punching bags, comic relief. Integral and influencing characters to pokemon plot which have their place and bigger role in pokemon universe.
Speaking of complexity, sure we never had deep psychological exploration of characters like Puella Madoka Magica, Naruto, FLM used to have in Pokemon. It would be outrageous to even try drawing paralel withg those.
But for pokemon standards anyway there still existed characters with nuanced and underlying depth to personality than one would expect for kid show like pokemon. Because if there wasnt any than i doubt books i posted and critic reception made about some of main protagonist like Misty would claim exact opposite( I have no intention of posting it again, given how no one reads that anyway ignoring it).
With conflicts going inside her, lot of sides to behavior which changed as time went on and rough facade developed to hide her insecurity and feelings kinda reflecting that.
You could say Dawn depression was also one of rare moments wehere we saw deeper dive in someone personality in this show.
Being a Water Pokémon Master isn't necessary to complete the games either, so what's your point? Contests are at least a thing that exist inside the games anyway, specialized leagues for Water Pokémon trainers aren't. If you're really worried about the anime lying to the audience (which makes no sense anyway, but for the sake of argument...), why would you want to replace a concept that does exist with one that doesn't? It's one thing to prefer if Kasumi stayed on, it's one thing to not like Pokémon Contests, but this is stupid.
Type master term was showed to exist in games though. E4 members are marked as type masters, dragon masters were brought up regarding Lance, his grandfather and elder clan of dragon users.
In fact E4 Siebold from XY games is labelled as water master.
I get this terms aren't as defined and explained as contests. In terms of what tests and requirements you need to achieve to reach this position, Whirl Cup was one of rare times which helped shed some light on it.
But this type of term exist even in games, while Ash pokemon master drea, doesnt exist there at all.
I never said they didn't. I will say that OS didn't devote a lot of time to having them chase those goals, though, which is one of the bigger improvements AG made to the anime as a whole.
Your right. From Hoenn and onwards bigger emphasis on May career and future girls was step in right direction. But i cannot agree with some people perception how in case Misty stayed "nothing would be different" in AG or DP.
Especially when in second half of Johto anime became more plot based with whatever quarrels existing between staff and directors starting to calm down deciding in what direction to take character. With events like Whirl islands, more active focus, battling several trainers starting to explore on Misty water master career serving as pretty strong indicator how writers knew and had idea of how to explore on Misty dreams with there existing material to create eqiually interesting. Or potentially even better story arc and path to move someone foward than even contests were through elkemebtal competitions, desire of Misty to reach E4 level giing us insight in how they operate helping Ash as well to prepare for their eventual encounter, villains like TEam Aqua, new legendary types etc.
In case decision of Misty removal wasnt already made, because she had/has potential to deliver more.
EDIT:
However ill just say this; people have this weird tendency to judge fictional character in pokemon only on how much someone goal was developed and plots. Rather than taking in account if someone in behavior and attitude changed as well.
Which is also character development counting moments when someone evolves and changes in behavior as result of new people in their life, struggles, new experiences and knowledge he/she attained leading him somewhere.
Something Misty undeniably went through maturing and growing as person significantly(which people always miss to notice).
