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2nd Gen The Strongest Trainer as of Gen 2 isn't Red, but Lance

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    This isn't a particularly lengthy theory, but with how the Pokémon world works, I feel like this is the truth. At the end of the first gen games, Red defeats Blue and becomes Champion. Yet, three years later in Gen 2, Lance in the champion and Red is nowhere to be seen.

    Since the only way to become champion is to defeat the previous title holder, the only way that Lance got a promotion from Elite Four to Champion is if he dethroned Red.

    Some might be able to argue that he retired from the position, but it's not like he was in bad health, wanted to see his family, or lost interest in the job. He wandered Kanto for Arceus knows long and was in perfect health, he didn't go home, and he's still a trainer.

    Personally, I think that during those three years Lance defeated Red and Red went off to train so he could win back his title. Then Gold showed up. He disappeared after losing because either:

    A) He didn't know Gold beat Lance, so if he lost to someone weaker to Lance, how could he beat Lance as he was currently?

    B) He did know Gold beat Lance and thus had to beat Gold to regain his title. After failing to do so, he left so he could become even stronger and defeat the person who beat Lance.
     
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    • Seen May 11, 2017
    I love comic books so I come from a world of making your own continuity. I always had the idea that like Red caught 149 Pokemon, became the champion then went to capture Mewtwo. But like Mewtwo kicked the crap out of him. So he went to Mt. Silver to train harder and capture Mewtwo.

    And maybe with Mewtwo's awesome psychic abilities he like shattered Red's mind, that's why he doesn't talk. He's never lost like ever, Mewtwo humbled the crap out of him so he's obsessed.
     
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  • I think Red just isn't interested in standing around battling newcomers to defend his title. I see it as he went out on his journey to become the Champion and accomplished just that. No need for him to stick around when there are other things to explore and discover in the world.
     
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  • While this is a Pokemon theory, I'm going to pop this thread over into our Second Generation forum, since it fits better over there.

    And while I don't necessarily agree with the theory, it is an interesting one nonetheless. Still, I agree with OuterTsuchinoko that Red doesn't seem like the type to hang around the Pokemon League once he dethroned the champion, and since the title was left vacant, Lance just took over seeing as he was the highest ranking member of the Elite Four.

    MOVED.
     

    Xertified

    Shtposting is my life.
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  • I think this makes sense, but as of strongest, Red retires/gives up his position so he can complete his goal, and he is the final boss. I am not saying your theory is wrong. I am just making things clear. Done.
     
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  • This isn't a particularly lengthy theory, but with how the Pokémon world works, I feel like this is the truth. At the end of the first gen games, Red defeats Blue and becomes Champion. Yet, three years later in Gen 2, Lance in the champion and Red is nowhere to be seen.
    Generally speaking, Lance was next in line to the title if Red, who had it previously, were to leave, and this seems to be suggested. Like Mewtwo, who is not in the League, Red wandered off in search of becoming a stronger trainer, abandoning his duties to the League, and hence being free to develop his ability at the sport. Red is, of course, presented in the games as both significantly more formidable than Lance in terms of Pokémon, and also as the final quest or the most difficult trainer, and as such there seems little reason to go along with Lance being any stronger, with the game instead going notably in the other direction.

    In any case, though, Red is assumed to be the protagonist of the first game, who defeated Lance. They are hence picking up where they left off in that game, and Lance - generally seen as a one-type trainer anyway - is a stop-gap until the player is deemed worthy to take on the more difficult trainer Red. His task was to become a Pokémon Master, and he is following this in a perhaps eccentric fashion, which the game attempts to convey.

    Personally, I think that during those three years Lance defeated Red and Red went off to train so he could win back his title. Then Gold showed up. He disappeared after losing because either:

    A) He didn't know Gold beat Lance, so if he lost to someone weaker to Lance, how could he beat Lance as he was currently?

    B) He did know Gold beat Lance and thus had to beat Gold to regain his title. After failing to do so, he left so he could become even stronger and defeat the person who beat Lance.
    The player was only permitted entrance to the place because they had won the League some time ago, which was not considered sufficient to enter it. In that sense, presumably this was noted, and the game sets things up such that if the player could beat Red, they could probably beat the League, which might be used to train for it and hence is not presented as particularly formidable. Obviously, 'Gold's' battles with Red and so on are not League battles, which would take place at the Indigo Plateau, but considered more difficult and significant. The protagonist of G/S/C was, of course, considered to have beaten Lance by then, as Red had earlier, and with similar Pokémon.

    Of course, he disappeared after 'losing' in part because he had to heal his Pokémon and so on, and return to the place.

    I love comic books so I come from a world of making your own continuity. I always had the idea that like Red caught 149 Pokemon, became the champion then went to capture Mewtwo. But like Mewtwo kicked the crap out of him. So he went to Mt. Silver to train harder and capture Mewtwo.
    Mewtwo isn't in Cerulean Cave at this point, so that would seem difficult. Presumably no plot-line with Red there is to be assumed. Because Mewtwo is post-game content, the game is obviously not going to assume in bad faith that the player lost to Mewtwo (especially given the Master Ball hand-out, etc., probably favouring them at that point), but merely that that encounter did not happen on Red's part. This makes sense in multiple ways, including that the Mewtwo quest is hence presumably judged to be a question of the player's own tendencies, at least optimally. It's worth noting that Red's position does mimic Mewtwo's in the first game, and hence presumably they weren't in any particularly notable feud with them, in the context.

    And maybe with Mewtwo's awesome psychic abilities he like shattered Red's mind, that's why he doesn't talk. He's never lost like ever, Mewtwo humbled the crap out of him so he's obsessed.

    Can you see why the game might not hold this to be the orthodox plot-line for the player-character?


    In any case, seems little reason to hold to such a 'continuity,' except for virulent self-hatred on the part of the player.

    Anyway, though, other characters do talk like Red, such as the red-haired 'rival,' as well as the 'Psychics,' so perhaps it would seem more reasonable to hold that he had turned into a Mewtwo. He is never presented as mute, but rather as just not talking, which suits their focus on Pokémon battles and is how humans would generally be when they are not talking. Mewtwo can inflict amnesia, as he does on Ash Ketchum (humorously and perhaps slightly maliciously), but presumably Red is literate. It was among other things a reference to the concept of a silent protagonist, which was still in operation, and as such they are unlikely to present this concept in such a degrading manner, nor the player to want to take it as such, unless they really dislike the games. A person can fall down a cliff, or out of the way of a punch, or because they are Satan. Red is, of course, not Satan, although he does have a Pikachu.

    In any case, the game would seem more likely to follow the logic, "I never called upon you and received a courteous reception, and then insulted you."

    and he is the final boss
    As the Elite 4 are merely a sequence of bosses, this seems mostly decisive in this question.
     

    Xertified

    Shtposting is my life.
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  • And final,

    Red didn't stay, why? He wants to mmet new challenges, new pokemon. That is also why the Battle Frontier and Other Battle thingies, to communicate and meet other people. Not enough? Trading. Yeah, you know that now..
     
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    • Seen Apr 23, 2019
    Going by gameplay mechanics, if you will, Red is clearly stronger than Lance. I would also give a call out for Blue, if it wasnt for the fact that he is pretty much the last gym leader you fight, people would say he was actually quite challenging. I found him more challenging than Lance, anyways.
     
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    • Seen Jun 20, 2016
    Red is a reflection of you. Lance is strongest because he is Dragon Type ( which is invulnerable against most moves.
     
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    Red is a reflection of you. Lance is strongest because he is Dragon Type ( which is invulnerable against most moves.

    Well, except he isnt really the strongest. There is at least one gym leader that is stronger, Blue.
     
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    • Seen Jun 20, 2016
    Red is the former self of Gold. Gold has now rose above red. However the game is still easy to beat Red as well.
     
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  • This isn't Deadly Premonition. Red isn't fighting themselves in a literal sense, at least as portrayed, including by everyone else in-game. The game isn't literally supposed to be a question of self-hatred, nor the player assumed to have the same Pokémon as Red - they could not have had an Espeon, in any case. In any case, if Red 'reflects the player,' it is the player after the various events with Lance and the Elite 4, and hence in a sense higher regarded. So that's not really of account, given that they are faced as an opposition trainer who ended Team Rocket, etc.

    In any case, they like Lance have a multi-type team - Lance is also forced to rely on such as Gyarados, Aerodactyl, and other non-Dragon types, while Red is of course in proximity to the Tyranitar line - although of course their much-maligned Pikachu does have a humorous efficiency given Lance's tendency to open with a Gyarados and such. In this, Red has more coverage, of course, and would not be quite as vulnerable to merely an Ice/Water-type - as Pryce has, for instance - spamming its own moves, with perhaps an alternative for Gyarados. So in that sense, the type's resistances need not confer that much of an advantage. Of course, Lance is not the only trainer with Dragon-types, either.

    Blue is another case of a trainer who can be more open with types, but they're a bit iffy, as they're presented as part of the Kanto League which shared the Elite 4 which Lance was a part of, and hence Lance is presented as perhaps more highly regarded, although to be fair you do take on Blue after Lance and there might have been some alterations in the Kanto League. Nonetheless, obviously Red is presented as stronger than both, and requires an extra league to be completed before you can face them, is hence presented as the strongest of these trainers.

    In any case, you suspect they might be slightly disappointed if the strongest trainer was supposed to mostly use these 'resistances' to spam Hyper Beam.
     

    Ho-Oh

    used Sacred Fire!
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    Bump, what do you guys think of this theory? :)
     
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    This is a farfetch'd theory, the game portrays Red as the final super boss, the strongest trainer because they give him the highest levels in the game and you fight him after beating everything else. He is clearly meant to be the strongest trainer of gen 2, not Lance. My guess is Red left to go to Johto and beat the gyms there, likely evolving his Eevee into Espeon, went to My Silver to train even more, vacating the champion position so Lance fills in for him
     
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    • Seen Jun 29, 2019
    This is a farfetch'd theory, the game portrays Red as the final super boss, the strongest trainer because they give him the highest levels in the game and you fight him after beating everything else. He is clearly meant to be the strongest trainer of gen 2, not Lance. My guess is Red left to go to Johto and beat the gyms there, likely evolving his Eevee into Espeon, went to My Silver to train even more, vacating the champion position so Lance fills in for him

    I agree with this. Lance being the strongest doesn't match with how Red is portrayed in GSC (ultra final boss, highest levels, "dot dot dot", etc.).
     
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