Ash shouldn't get the credit for Charizards wins...

[Videreludus]

At least after he gave him to Liza in Charicific Valley. I mean he calls himself a Pokémon Trainer but he doesn't train his Charizard anymore. Charizard become stronger but not because of Ash. When I saw Ash's Charizard defeting an Articuno, I never felt Ash had accomplished something because Charizard's strenght wasn't Ash's doing.

 

[psyanic]

Wow, I never thought of it that way. I just thought that since Ash was the one who actually commands Charizard in battle, that's enough credit on its own. Sure, part of being a Pokemon Trainer is training, but more importantly is the battling. Strategy plays a big role. Pokemon don't come up with the strategies, they're just the muscle. The trainers work the brains out.

 

[Kenshin5]

My friend placed #2 in the Southeast Regionals for VGC. He didn't train anyone of his pokemon yet he was able to place higher then hundreds of people competing. Just cause they aren't always training doesn't mean minimize the fact they are the ones coming up with strategy as psyanic said. Last time Charizard went off on his own what happened? He got his ass handed to him by a Poliwrath and become frozen. If he kept aimlessly going out strong opponents he would keep getting beat down. He may be strong but he had little control. I have no problem giving Ash, Charizard, Liza, or the other Charizard credit. They were all intracule to Charizard training at some point and how he is today.

 

[Videreludus]

Wow, I never thought of it that way. I just thought that since Ash was the one who actually commands Charizard in battle, that's enough credit on its own. Sure, part of being a Pokemon Trainer is training, but more importantly is the battling. Strategy plays a big role. Pokemon don't come up with the strategies, they're just the muscle. The trainers work the brains out.

But for me it doesn't makes sense someone be called Pokémon Trainer if he doesn't trains his own Pokémon. Sure giving commands is makes part too but to being have the right strategy you need to have the tools. In the battle against Articuno for example, Charizard was able to defeat the Ice legendary bird because he new Overhead. But the fire Pokémon didn't learned it because he trained with Ash, no it was Lizas fault.

My friend placed #2 in the Southeast Regionals for VGC. He didn't train anyone of his pokemon yet he was able to place higher then hundreds of people competing. Just cause they aren't always training doesn't mean minimize the fact they are the ones coming up with strategy as psyanic said. Last time Charizard went off on his own what happened? He got his ass handed to him by a Poliwrath and become frozen. If he kept aimlessly going out strong opponents he would keep getting beat down. He may be strong but he had little control. I have no problem giving Ash, Charizard, Liza, or the other Charizard credit. They were all intracule to Charizard training at some point and how he is today.

And what is the point being 2nd place in a championship without training? Of what you said if the one who got 3rd place trained more than I think he is more of a champ than your friend. I mean you will never give real valor to something you got easily than you would have with hardwork.
And with Charizard being frozen by a Poliwrath, well he is flying type so he has more weakness to ice than other fire types (excluding moltres).

Ah before I forget the same goes to Primeape. ^^

 

[Snivy063]

Hmm, it seems to me that Ash would still be considered a Pokemon Trainer since he caught that as a Charmander and trained it from the start till it became a Charizard, so still .. It's all because of Ash.

 

[Kenshin5]

But for me it doesn't makes sense someone be called Pokémon Trainer if he doesn't trains his own Pokémon. Sure giving commands is makes part too but to being have the right strategy you need to have the tools. In the battle against Articuno for example, Charizard was able to defeat the Ice legendary bird because he new Overhead. But the fire Pokémon didn't learned it because he trained with Ash, no it was Lizas fault.



And what is the point being 2nd place in a championship without training? Of what you said if the one who got 3rd place trained more than I think he is more of a champ than your friend. I mean you will never give real valor to something you got easily than you would have with hardwork.
And with Charizard being frozen by a Poliwrath, well he is flying type so he has more weakness to ice than other fire types (excluding moltres).

Ah before I forget the same goes to Primeape. ^^

Ash had a powerful pokemon in Charizard he left it cause they didn't want him to have an overpowered pokemon constantly traveling in his party. Not to mention Charizard had a chip on it's shoulder since the other Charizard were stronger then him. So to me it's partly Charizard self motivation to become stronger and part Liza training, and part sparring with the other Charizard. Overhead is a move? I thought the moves that were last shown were Steel Wing, Flamethrower, Dragon Breathe, Seismic Toss.

It was an example, regardless if he finished in the top 10 still proves the point a Competitive Battler doesn't have to train to go far in Tournaments IRL such as VGC or on forums. They know the ins and outs of how a pokemon can be utilized and what pokemon work best with each other to benefit their said traits.

 

[Videreludus]

Hmm, it seems to me that Ash would still be considered a Pokemon Trainer since he caught that as a Charmander and trained it from the start till it became a Charizard, so still .. It's all because of Ash.

I didn't wrote what I meant which is that he calls himself Charizards Pokemon Trainer, and he is, but what I wanted to say is that I can't give Ash credit for defeating Gary or Noland (Battle Frontier) for example, because in that time Charizard wasn't trained by Ash anymore.

Ash had a powerful pokemon in Charizard he left it cause they didn't want him to have an overpowered pokemon constantly traveling in his party. Not to mention Charizard had a chip on it's shoulder since the other Charizard were stronger then him. So to me it's partly Charizard self motivation to become stronger and part Liza training, and part sparring with the other Charizard. Overhead is a move? I thought the moves that were last shown were Steel Wing, Flamethrower, Dragon Breathe, Seismic Toss.

It was an example, regardless if he finished in the top 10 still proves the point a Competitive Battler doesn't have to train to go far in Tournaments IRL such as VGC or on forums. They know the ins and outs of how a pokemon can be utilized and what pokemon work best with each other to benefit their said traits.

Again I didn't wrote what I wanted to write. I meant "In the battle against Articuno for example, Charizard was able to defeat the Ice legendary bird because he knew Overheat". My fault again sorry.

Unfortunatly it's true that the reason Charizard left the party was because it was to powerful, but Ash should have let him by Professor Oak at least.

But a Pokémon Trainer isn't just a battler. He's responsible for his Pokémon's growth and how the Pokémon become stronger. I mean another person raising your Pokémon is like someone giving you the answers in a Math exam for example.

 

[Kenshin5]

Doesn't Reggie to an extent raise Paul pokemon when Paul isn't using them? Yes they could have left Charizard with Professor Oak but they preferred Bulbasaur to be the big dog there. I'm content how they left Charizard with Liza and Squirtle with the Squirtle Squad. At least they are revisited and used unlike Primeape.

 

[Videreludus]

Doesn't Reggie to an extent raise Paul pokemon when Paul isn't using them? Yes they could have left Charizard with Professor Oak but they preferred Bulbasaur to be the big dog there. I'm content how they left Charizard with Liza and Squirtle with the Squirtle Squad. At least they are revisited and used unlike Primeape.

Paul is the perfect example of how having powerful Pokémon from the start doesn't makes you a perfect Trainer. He thought that the only thing that cares in Pokémon Battles is power, never really raised cared for his own Pokémon, letting his Brother do the job. For me Paul is a noob trainer because of that. Breeders like Reggie are real Pokémon Trainers because they raise and train Pokémon for real.

I hope you all understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to change your opinion just stating my point of view ;)