How much should I include in a demo?

[DeathstickeR]

After speaking to another member on the forums, they convinced me that I should make some kind of demo before asking help. But, what all should be in the demo to entice people to want to work on it? Do I have to have custom sprites, pokemon, good map layout, etc? How much is necessary to show that my game has heart or is worth putting time into developing? I'm asking because working on this has not only opened my eyes a little more to exactly how difficult of a process this is, but also showed me the skills I am lacking in.

So far I have designed and made a couple sprites of honestly varying quality because i just started spriting for the first time yesterday. And now looking over the building sprites from B&W, i see there is a pretty big limitation on what buildings and such have been imported and honestly my skill level is not high enough to try to replicate the style of 3d models with individual pixels. Are there more B&W overworld resources somewhere (I have essentials B&W v3.1.1)? EDIT: I found the rest of them! Turn out I was only using one of the city maps instead of the other. Just have to set the priorities and movement and I will be all good on this point.

Also, what are everyone's favorite or most helpful resources? Getting help sifting through what I need and what I dont would be a huge help.

Lastly, what do people mean when they say gen 3/4/5/etc style sprites? does this mainly refer to the maximum pixel dimensions of the pokemon or something else like shading, etc?

Thanks to anyone who replies in advance :)

EDIT: Here is a link to some of the pokemon sprites I have been working on. consider them all a work in progress and feel free to give me critique on how to make the designs or sprites themselves better. One thing I know I need to work on it rendering. Pokemon is largely cell shaded and I have a tendency to blend more than I should. anyways, my WIP designs can be found here.

EDIT: Info on the designs.

The cute thing with the horn on its head is called Razear and is a Fairy/ Dark type with the ability Lunar Power, which increases the Poser of Dark and Fairy type moves. The horn shines bright and it is easily distracted by it. It's ears never move and form a crescent shaped blade on the back of its head.

The evolution of Razear is the super cool pokemon covered in pink blades and spikes. It's name is Cresedge and it has the same ability. Cresedge can channel energy received from the moon into its crescent blade and spikes/horns to magnify its power. IT has two signature attacks: Shining Crescent and Midnight Edge, which are Fairy and Dark type moves and has a chance to lowers the foes defense or increase attack power, respectively. Both moves have a base power of 75.

The small thing with the Afro is Afrecho, a pokemon that rapidly loses it's eye sight as it matures and trains using an eye cover to prepare itself for maturity. It senses thing around it with echo location and is Fighting and a new type, Sound. This is one of my starter pokemon.

You can probably figure out its evolution, same deal, only it's fists are now indestructible and it can better pick up sound waves by using the holes in its hands.

The final evo isnt completed yet (not in gallery at all), but it's signature attack is a sound type move that hits one the first turn at low power, and then reverbs the next turn at a strong power. If used in succession, the attack hits for 100 power a turn, divided between two hits.

The monkey pokemon is Quasimi and it is always bored. It hates training but does so anyways because it has to help look after articuno,zapdos, moltres, and the last remaining grass type bird named forestro. It's ability is Elemental master, which grants is resistance toward water,fire, grass, and electric type moves and boosts their power by 30% when it uses a move of that type. Quasimi is a normal type pokemon.

It's evoluton, which i have sketched, but not spritied, is Tetrakong, a full fledged caretaker of the legendary birds. defender of the monastery, and pokemon meditation specialist. It is highly intelligent, able to fully understand humans and teaches other pokemon how to reflect on their battle experience and decide how to use the information they have learned (distribute EV's)

 

[mgriffin]

After speaking to another member on the forums, they convinced me that I should make some kind of demo before asking help. But, what all should be in the demo to entice people to want to work on it? Do I have to have custom sprites, pokemon, good map layout, etc? How much is necessary to show that my game has heart or is worth putting time into developing? I'm asking because working on this has not only opened my eyes a little more to exactly how difficult of a process this is, but also showed me the skills I am lacking in.

My approach is to take the ideas and skills you bring to the table, and build the demo around showing those off. I'm afraid I can't tell you what those things are for you, but I can explain how this works for my projects. I'm a programmer, so my demos focus around showing off whatever particular feature I'm trying to sell people on. Here's an example of something I might pitch:

Pokémon stories are linear, most of the time you don't have any option about what to do, and even when you do have a choice (e.g. some badges in Kanto/Johta) it's purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the story. I'd like to see a game where you can disband Team Aqua by locating and fighting through their base in Lilycove, or can choose to let Team Rocket to continue experimenting at the Lake of Rage unleashing all sorts of evolved shiny Pokémon into Johto, or can allow Team Magma to use the Meteorite to make Mt. Chimney erupt. Hell, I want to join Team Rocket on Nugget Bridge and later be asked to help Giovanni defeat Blue in Silph Co.

I have a demo of using AI to control some of the NPCs in a really rough sketch of Hoenn. Click "Run" up at the top, and enter your commands in the pane to the right. You're able to move around the map and interrupt Team Aqua/Magma as they try to accomplish their goals, or you can beat them to those items and then they'll try something else, or disappear if there's nothing left to do. You can't directly assist the teams yet, but you can fight the other team which will prevent the teams from fighting each other, and thus help whichever you didn't fight make some progress towards whatever their goals are.

My next steps will be to:

• Add more NPCs. At least May and Wally.
• Add more ways to interact with NPCs. If you have the Meteorite then Team Magma should hunt you down to try and take it from you, and you should be able to simply give it to them.
• Move this code into RMXP so that I can use it to drive the events on each map.

I chose Hoenn only because it seemed like something that you would already understand, the actual game could be set anywhere. I'm seeking a writer to:

1. Write the story for this game.
2. Help think of ways to generate the dialogue for the AI-controlled NPCs. The story is emergent so it's not feasible to write all the dialogue for every situation up-front. My best idea so far is to assemble conversations from small snippets of hand-written text.

(Note: I'm not actually pitching this, the demo needs a bunch more work, and in particular I'd like to have a better idea about how I'll try to solve dialogue. But I digress.)

I think lots of people fall into the trap of starting their demo from the beginning of the game, but unless you think you're particularly good at telling that part of the story I would recommend that you pick the most exciting, innovative, or "different" part of the plot, and show that off instead. I want to be thrust straight into the action, and if that means giving me a preset team and telling me that I just earned my 7th badge but now I have to take down the evil team; so be it.

This approach sounds like it runs the risk of being a bunch of work that you'll end up having to redo later as your story shifts, but you're very likely to throw things away later anyway, both because your story will change and because you'll become a better mapper/eventer/writer/etc. Fred Brooks literally wrote the book on software development and he has this to say:

The management question, therefore, is not whether to build a pilot system and throw it away. You will do that. […] Hence plan to throw one away; you will, anyhow.

Also don't be afraid to use stock sprites, or sound effects, or anything else if you're not able to make something that you would put in the finished product. If I'm checking out someone's demo to decide if I want to join the team I'd rather see a question mark than some bad sprites because it's obvious that you don't intend for placeholders to be in the final game, whereas maybe you're proud of your bad art. For example if I was writing a game that had an Eevee variant central to the plot, I'd probably just give the species a different name so that the player can tell it's different, but leave the sprite the same because my art is awful; and if I was introducing a whole new Fakémon then you'd see a black circle with a question mark in it.

So to summarize:

1. Pick the feature(s) that you believe best show off your game's "heart".
2. Build a demo that specifically brings these to the front-and-center, and does so ASAP.
3. Find a way to work around your skill deficits, nothing is better than a bad thing.

But don't be afraid to show the proof that you're willing to jump in and learn new things—the right attitude is a big part of success—so I'd certainly show off the sprites you've made and anything else like that you've worked on.

---

Lastly, what do people mean when they say gen 3/4/5/etc style sprites? does this mainly refer to the maximum pixel dimensions of the pokemon or something else like shading, etc?

I think it refers to both of those things, and in general the "style" used for those sprites, like what techniques, palettes and poses are used. e.g. it looks like gen 3 has more dithering than 4 or 5, at least for Pokémon (e.g. look at Charizard).

 

[DeathstickeR]

My approach is to take the ideas and skills you bring to the table, and build the demo around showing those off. I'm afraid I can't tell you what those things are for you, but I can explain how this works for my projects. I'm a programmer, so my demos focus around showing off whatever particular feature I'm trying to sell people on. Here's an example of something I might pitch:



(Note: I'm not actually pitching this, the demo needs a bunch more work, and in particular I'd like to have a better idea about how I'll try to solve dialogue. But I digress.)

I think lots of people fall into the trap of starting their demo from the beginning of the game, but unless you think you're particularly good at telling that part of the story I would recommend that you pick the most exciting, innovative, or "different" part of the plot, and show that off instead. I want to be thrust straight into the action, and if that means giving me a preset team and telling me that I just earned my 7th badge but now I have to take down the evil team; so be it.

This approach sounds like it runs the risk of being a bunch of work that you'll end up having to redo later as your story shifts, but you're very likely to throw things away later anyway, both because your story will change and because you'll become a better mapper/eventer/writer/etc. Fred Brooks literally wrote the book on software development and he has this to say:



Also don't be afraid to use stock sprites, or sound effects, or anything else if you're not able to make something that you would put in the finished product. If I'm checking out someone's demo to decide if I want to join the team I'd rather see a question mark than some bad sprites because it's obvious that you don't intend for placeholders to be in the final game, whereas maybe you're proud of your bad art. For example if I was writing a game that had an Eevee variant central to the plot, I'd probably just give the species a different name so that the player can tell it's different, but leave the sprite the same because my art is awful; and if I was introducing a whole new Fakémon then you'd see a black circle with a question mark in it.

So to summarize:

1. Pick the feature(s) that you believe best show off your game's "heart".
2. Build a demo that specifically brings these to the front-and-center, and does so ASAP.
3. Find a way to work around your skill deficits, nothing is better than a bad thing.

But don't be afraid to show the proof that you're willing to jump in and learn new things—the right attitude is a big part of success—so I'd certainly show off the sprites you've made and anything else like that you've worked on.

---


I think it refers to both of those things, and in general the "style" used for those sprites, like what techniques, palettes and poses are used. e.g. it looks like gen 3 has more dithering than 4 or 5, at least for Pokémon (e.g. look at Charizard).

I'm pretty sure you are the only one who actually replies to me on here. Thanks so much for your input. I have updated my post with a link to some of my pokemon designs. I'll try to have a demo up soon, been busy spriting and trying to get comfy with making maps using the 5th gen assets.

 

[mgriffin]

I'm pretty sure you are the only one who actually replies to me on here. Thanks so much for your input. I have updated my post with a link to some of my pokemon designs. I'll try to have a demo up soon, been busy spriting and trying to get comfy with making maps using the 5th gen assets.

Yeah, there's lots more game-players than game-makers here; and I get the impression that there's a lot of shy people who don't feel like they have anything to add (and to those people I'd say: of course you do! please join in!)

You might have some luck on (broken link removed), although it's pretty quiet over there too. One guy I know (actually, the one who inspired that pitch I posted) hangs around on RC and the Pokémon Reborn forums, but I couldn't tell you if Reborn's ones are any good.

I hope that you can find the people you're looking for once you've got something cool to show! Even if not, you'll have an awesome demo :)

Also I wanted to say that I'm very impressed by your sprites! I had forgotten that you studied art. You're right that they don't look all that Pokémon-y right now, but I love them in their own right.
EDIT: If it's possible, I'd recommend you include the images right into the page so people can see them without clicking anything. It sounds stupid, but people (especially me) are super lazy and we skip over text and don't click on links. Hell, just yesterday I asked a guy for examples of his writing, he sent a link to a game, and I decided I couldn't be bothered to download it and play to check. If that had been a YouTube video or short story I'd have at least skimmed through. I'm a bad person, I know! :(

Anyway, good luck! I'm not sure if I said it last time, but feel free to PM me if you have coding questions.

 

[DeathstickeR]

Yeah, there's lots more game-players than game-makers here; and I get the impression that there's a lot of shy people who don't feel like they have anything to add (and to those people I'd say: of course you do! please join in!)

You might have some luck on (broken link removed), although it's pretty quiet over there too. One guy I know (actually, the one who inspired that pitch I posted) hangs around on RC and the Pokémon Reborn forums, but I couldn't tell you if Reborn's ones are any good.

I hope that you can find the people you're looking for once you've got something cool to show! Even if not, you'll have an awesome demo :)

Also I wanted to say that I'm very impressed by your sprites! I had forgotten that you studied art. You're right that they don't look all that Pokémon-y right now, but I love them in their own right.
EDIT: If it's possible, I'd recommend you include the images right into the page so people can see them without clicking anything. It sounds stupid, but people (especially me) are super lazy and we skip over text and don't click on links. Hell, just yesterday I asked a guy for examples of his writing, he sent a link to a game, and I decided I couldn't be bothered to download it and play to check. If that had been a YouTube video or short story I'd have at least skimmed through. I'm a bad person, I know! :(

Anyway, good luck! I'm not sure if I said it last time, but feel free to PM me if you have coding questions.

I tried, but didnt see the paper clip until just now lol But i totally get that, I do the same thing haha

And thanks! I've always struggled with cell shading so im going to have to practice bunch and touch up those sprites and designs. Though I think Razear looks really good. As always, thank you, and I will definitely be in touch for coding stuff.

 

[DeathstickeR]

Updated Deviantart with improved sprites and another pokemon

 

[Mentalia]

I know this is such an old thread but I love the fakemon you created. Not entirely pokemon style but it's very clean and you really get a sense of the style here. Hope your game works out.