So I got bored...

Tortured_Soul said:
It's because it is a good rain starter. (I think that's what you mean, other than that, why don't people use it for anything but Rain Dance Teams?) I have no problem with Ludi outside a RD team, but I think there are some pokes that do it better in that regard.

Ludicolo hits things with reasonable damage yes? Rain Dish increases your HP by 1/16, so say 1/8 with Leftovers per turn. Now you Protect on one turn, so you get 1/4 Health over 2 Turns. That is like 10%-35%. If you are too slow, and cannot kill something, it is simply going to walk over the top of you. Scarfcross, any Salamence set etc. are all killed if you can outspeed them. A faster Leech Seed, or a faster Ice Beam = 1 kill compared to 25% Health gain.

~T_S
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But you're missing the point of the set. For starters, it doesn't even have Ice Beam. Also Heracross will smash Ludi in the rain or not in the rain (95 base SDef is very good) and will give it a STAB Megahorn.

Toxic never needs to go first, Protect has a speed priority, and Leech Seed also does not need to go first. Really, speed DOES NOT help that set AT ALL.

Also recovering 25% of your health in two turns is nothing to sneeze at vs. going first against sweepers that laugh at you anyways...sorry, it just makes absolutely no sense.
 
It does if it means win or lose. I'm going to forget I ever heard you say Ludicolo doesn't get Ice Beam... (It does o.0)(:P) There is a problem with your Theory. You suggest that Heracross isn't damaged on a Switch in, and then you asssume that Ludicolo will stay in when it has a free move. Ludicolo isn't a switch into Heracross, and it definately wouldn't be switching into a Megahorn anyway. Heracross doesn't usually care for Ludicolo because most run Rain Dish, but if it is outsped an killed, there it goes. Rain Dish is nice, granted, but it is like the "Sand Veil vs Arena Trap" on Duggy. Arena Trap traps opponents. (Duh!) So you can revenge kill by switching into something slower. Same goes for Ludicolo, but because of the low standard it is set at, it can surprise quite a few. 2HKO CS Heracross with STAB Surf in Rain I believe, 1HKO's min 4HP Salamence and outspeeds to kill with Ice Beam. It can still function how it is meant to, but it can now do a double job as a back-up sweeper.

~T_S
 
Tortured_Soul said:
It does if it means win or lose.

But it won't ever mean that unless there are just plain weird circumstances.

I'm going to forget I ever heard you say Ludicolo doesn't get Ice Beam... (It does o.0)(:P)

No, I said it isn't in his set :/

There is a problem with your Theory. You suggest that Heracross isn't damaged on a Switch in, and then you asssume that Ludicolo will stay in when it has a free move.

Heracross isn't damaged on the switch in. I assume Ludicolo is going to stay in because those are the circumstances you're working with. In your post you mentioned that Ludi could beat Heracross in the rain.

Ludicolo isn't a switch into Heracross,

Never said it was.

and it definately wouldn't be switching into a Megahorn anyway.

I may be stupid but I'm not THAT stupid.

Heracross doesn't usually care for Ludicolo because most run Rain Dish, but if it is outsped an killed, there it goes.

But Ludi can't kill Heracross :/ Heracross can kill back. Even in rain and outpseeding Heracross it will survive anything Ludicolo throws at it and OHKO with Megahorn.

Rain Dish is nice, granted, but it is like the "Sand Veil vs Arena Trap" on Duggy. Arena Trap traps opponents. (Duh!) So you can revenge kill by switching into something slower.

That's a terrible analogy. Dugtrio is useless without Arena Trap, as in it relies on Arena trap for it to be useful. Ludi doesn't need either ability to be useful. Honestly I don't see how that relates at all.

Same goes for Ludicolo, but because of the low standard it is set at, it can surprise quite a few.

But you're missing the point of the set he is trying to run. He is not trying to surpise sweepers like Salamence, he's trying to toxistall with some leech seed action. That's it.

2HKO CS Heracross with STAB Surf in Rain I believe,

Okay, so above you say I'm just assuming Ludi is going to stay in on Heracross as if it shouldn't (which it shouldn't of course) and now you're talking about trying to beat it one on one. You can't have it both ways :/

1HKO's min 4HP Salamence and outspeeds to kill with Ice Beam.

His set DOES NOT HAVE ICE BEAM.

It can still function how it is meant to, but it can now do a double job as a back-up sweeper.

It can't toxistall, leech seed crap, AND sweep or even kind of sweep. You can't mix 2 or 3 sets with Ludi, you have to choose one and roll with it.

~T_S
Click to expand...

You're totally ignoring what his set is trying to accomplish.

This is his set from the first post:

"Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Calm
Trait: Rain Dish
252 Hp/ 252 Sp.def/ 4 Sp.atk
Toxic
Protect
Leech Seed
Rain Dance/ Hydro Pump

My special wall, sent out when the enemy decides to zap me with a grass move.
also with rain dish I get good HP along side Lefties. I can have it as a rain dance provider."

So tell me how Swift Swim is going to help that.

Swift Swim is VERY useful on the sweeper variants of Ludicolo that are meant to do just what you are saying and slay dragons and all that other stuff, but this set obviously isn't trying to do that and assuming Swift Swim will allow it to is ridiculous because it can't.

Swift Swim is needed on sweeper sets but this isn't designed to sweep so trying to make it take on heavyweights it can't beat anyways like Heracross and Salamence is stupid. It really is.

If he was running Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Rain Dance, obvious rain ish would be inferior, but you're forgetting Swift Swim doesn't help the set he is running at all.
 
Wow, intense stuff. Thanks both of you for that :)
Also, I ask T_S, what happens when the rain stops and I have Ice Beam and Surf and Swift Swim i uselss.
Raind Dish + Toxic is just something to get me more HP and stall anything.
That is why even with out rain, lefties and LS will get me HP while I Heal and protect.
 
Shiny Pichu said:
How is skarmory a water pokemon?

Its a steel and flying type and it has no water moves.
Click to expand...

And you're point is? No one ever claimed that Skar was part water.

Just because it's a Rain Dance water themed team, doesn't mean ONLY water pokemon are allowed. That is suicide. He needs some sort of diversity.

Hell, even ingame, a few gym leaders & Elite four members has different types of pokemon to mix it up.
 
Shiny Pichu, we are talking about Ludicolo not Skarmory. :)
 
It doesn't even look like you were talking about Skarmory.
 
Not at all, and I agree about diversity in rain dancing teams.
I don't know how he got he got the idea about skarmory, maybe posted in the wrong thread or sumthing
 
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Tortured_Soul said:
Ok, I see I cannot make reason, so I will just let it go. I don't want to get us both infracted again. :P

~T_S
Click to expand...

Well I don't think we would get infracted this time considering we broke no rules. Remember disagreement is allowed here (and I hate when people try to tell me otherwise, not to imply that you are)

Also Shiny Pichu, if EVERY single pokemon HAD to rely on Rain, Rain teams would all fail, period. Tar, Hippowdon, and the over sized lawnmower would shut you down totally.

You can't rely on the rain too much or you just can't win. Also if everything had a water move I'd really like to see how these teams would do against bulky waters, especially Poliwrath, Mantine, and Vaporeon.
 
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