Team Rocket's internal strife

[Charaxes]

As I've previously stated in recent threads, I haven't watched any dub product beyond Battle Dimension. I am catching up, but it's a lengthy process. To compensate, I've been using Dogasu episode comparisons and Bulbapedia. I am becoming disturbed by a new trend in the Team Rocket translation process, noted by Dogasu. He has noted it many times, but his "With the Easiest of Grace" comparison earns such spotlight (emphasis mine):

The version of the episode that The Pokémon Company International (who fans still refer to as "PUSA" even though they haven't been using that name for a while) puts out is alright, I guess. They keep most of the music intact, but they still have that annoying tendency of having Team Rocket insult each other constantly. If all I watched was the dub, I swear I'd be yelling at Jessie and James to just disband already since they seem to hate each other so much.

Link: https://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/comparisons/diamond_pearl/ep172.html

I removed his bit of profanity for obvious reasons. He then included two exchanges and their translation:

Jessie: "Ooh~! That Togekiss is pure elegance times ten. I want it...so get it for me!"
James: "Sounds simple, but sounds can be deceiving."
Jessie: "Simple!? You calling me simple? Careful."

Why would Jessie not assume that her friend is insulting her every chance that he gets? It's almost expected at this point, isn't it?

Kojirou's response to Musashi's line is that she should reconsider whether or not she wants to capture Togekiss. Musashi asks if he has a problem with the pokemon, and then Nyasu starts his speech about how they shouldn't go after the pokemon since it's responsible for her earning her fifth Ribbon."

Which doesn't really make any sense to me at all, since Princess Salvia is the one who decided to give her the Ribbon and not Togekiss, but whatever.

After the flashback,

Jessie: "All the more reason!"
Meowth: "For what?"
Jessie: "The more reason to catch Togekiss since it's why I got my ribbon! In an uncaring world it speaks volumes on why we should be together! Never fight the fickle finger of fate."
James: "Touché!"
Meowth: "That girl's mind runs on her own track!"
Jessie: "So be dears and find me a stealing strategy!"
James: "Dears? You mean us"
Jessie: "It's a stretch, but yes. Just how does one catch a cutie pie out in the broadest of daylight?"
Meowth: "That's yahoo speak for makin' us do the heavy liftin'."

OK, several things. One, "touché" is a really stupid thing for James to say because it doesn't make any sense in context. Two, I'm glad Jessie managed to find the time to insult her friends once again because if she hadn't, I'd be worried that she actually cares about these people she's spending the better part of her adult years with. Three, since when has the brightness of the sun ever prevented Jessie and James from trying to capture a Pokémon? Wouldn't the problem that Musashi had in the original, the fact that there's nowhere for them to hide, have made more sense? And four, hooray at Meowth for getting in an insult of his own!"

Such dynamics aren't unheard within a group of antagonists. An immediate and personal Western example is the 1987 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series, where the main villains did insult each other constantly. (Of course, there is the considerable difference of intended scripted dialogue vs. not-in-the-original-source-material translated dialogue. If there is an anime version of villain characters castigating each other in canon, please provide an name.) However, it is an appalling trait that, as far as I know, isn't in the original, nor in the 4Kids translations, with few exceptions. (If there was such a back-to-back pattern in the 4Kids-era, feel free to correct me or refresh my memory.)

One possible explanation is within a Bulbagarden thread. The OP deftly criticized the promises TPCI had made when the anime switched hands. There was a provocative passage, said by Jimmy Zoppi. I didn't know he also had the nom de plume of Carter Cathcart, who had handled the later 4-Kids episodes and the majority of the TPCI ones. The OP didn't provide a proper link to Zoppi's commentary, so take it with a grain of salt. Should I find the proper link or is given to me, I'll update.

The only thing I will say about Japanese vs. US is, the Japanese translation is not funny at all. What made Pokemon popular in the 1st place was being able to stray from the original Japanese, and that will continue. And my experience is- that Team Rocket is the funniest stuff on the show!

Link: https://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/blog.php?b=22097

The OP did a fine job in summing up the right amount of outrage (though, I may disagree with some of his or her wording). If nothing else, we can start directing the focus where it belongs: specific dub writers, like Zoppi, who make our beloved characters do out-of-character potshots. One can hope this will stop when the dub handles Best Wishes, per the Team Rocket trio's new characterization. Should TPCI decide to continue this practice into B/W, then we may have an actual problem on our hands.

If anyone wishes to discuss the jabbing issue and/or provide additional examples, by all means. (If there are those that believe this is a fitting direction for the trio, as friendship may not or should apply to villains, then provide your best counterargument. Feel free to convince me otherwise.) Until then, I share Dogasu's initial reaction, I, too, would be "yelling at Jessie and James to just disband already since they seem to hate each other so much." Providing, of course, that I didn't have his site, Bulbapedia and this website to steer me towards the truth.

While it may be impossible, or exceedingly rare, to have the Team Rocket trio translated accurately, it doesn't mean TPCI (or 4Kids) should play fast and loose with basic human interaction, either. As a personal example, what would you do if you were berated subtly or overtly by your teammates on a daily basis? Once in a while, fine, but it is always the little things. Eventually, the little things add up.

Update: Apparently, TPCI's Meowth can also inappropriately insult non-Rockets, as I have discovered in the "Unlocking the Red Chain of Events" comparison. (Meowth mocked his saviors with his "Thanks for the save, twerp" line, whereas, Nyasu didn't.) The thread's thesis is on his doing such to his fellow Rockets, but this shouldn't be ignored, either. More on this later.

Link: https://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/comparisons/diamond_pearl/ep150.html

 

[Vernikova]

Team Rocket is bad and annoying in any language no matter how they act. What they say does not bother me since I zone out whenever they're on screen anyway. Tough **** for whoever does like them.

 

[Charaxes]

Team Rocket is bad and annoying in any language no matter how they act. What they say does not bother me since I zone out whenever they're on screen anyway. Tough **** for whoever does like them.

I'm getting to that point, myself. Whenever I watch TPCI's Team Rocket, I do try to tune them out, as I'll get mad, otherwise.

I disagree with the "tough ...." line, though, that's okay.

Eventually, I plan to address their "hipster doofus" dialogue in a general thread, but I was the mood for something specific.

 

[Tombo]

Team Rocket (Jessie & James) are just misunderstood, if you learn their back story then you'll understand why they are the way the are. Think back to the first season when they return to the place where they were brought up with the bikers (Big Jess + Little Jim), Jessie loosing her first love, the trouble they had at the Pokemon School when they failed their exam.

Poor Team Rocket :'(

 

[Vernikova]

I'm getting to that point, myself. Whenever I watch TPCI's Team Rocket, I do try to tune them out, as I'll get mad, otherwise.

I disagree with the "tough ...." line, though, that's okay.

Eventually, I plan to address their "hipster doofus" dialogue in a general thread, but I was the mood for something specific.

I don't get mad at them. Even if I were to listen to them, I would get what they were saying anyway.

Team Rocket (Jessie & James) are just misunderstood, if you learn their back story then you'll understand why they are the way the are. Think back to the first season when they return to the place where they were brought up with the bikers (Big Jess + Little Jim), Jessie loosing her first love, the trouble they had at the Pokemon School when they failed their exam.

Poor Team Rocket :'(

Team Rocket episodes are almost always wonderful. I don't disagree but they're dialogue is nothing special.

 

[Charaxes]

Team Rocket (Jessie & James) are just misunderstood, if you learn their back story then you'll understand why they are the way the are. Think back to the first season when they return to the place where they were brought up with the bikers (Big Jess + Little Jim), Jessie loosing her first love, the trouble they had at the Pokemon School when they failed their exam.

Poor Team Rocket :'(

As Vernikova had said, the issue isn't the Rockets' characterization, at least in terms of the original. The issue is the translation and the dubbers' taking of liberties. And assuming Jessie and James talked like that, back then, why bother being together, at all? Logically, it doesn't make much sense, beyond the cheap joke to the audience.

Side note, I was surprised that Zoppi felt the way he did. I also didn't know he had that much influence on the dub. Who knew?

 

[Tombo]

As Vernikova had said, the issue isn't the Rockets' characterization, at least in terms of the original. The issue is the translation and the dubbers' taking of liberties. And assuming Jessie and James talked like that, back then, why bother being together, at all? Logically, it doesn't make much sense, beyond the cheap joke to the audience.

Side note, I was surprised that Zoppi felt the way he did. I also didn't know he had that much influence on the dub. Who knew?

I just watched two subbed banned episodes form the original season and now I understand what you guys mean. The way the guys relate to each other is quite different.

Also, Misty seems a lot more toned down in the undubbed version but maybe this is because I've only seen two undubbed episodes.

 

[Vernikova]

You should definitely watch more episodes. I don't really watch the Japanese episodes with Misty so I would be interested in some of those differences if any notable ones were there.

 

[Charaxes]

I just watched two subbed banned episodes form the original season and now I understand what you guys mean. The way the guys relate to each other is quite different.

Also, Misty seems a lot more toned down in the undubbed version but maybe this is because I've only seen two undubbed episodes.

I'm glad you now appreciate the difference and my point. But, yes, and in fairness, you don't have this problem too much with the 4Kids version. Bickering, sure, but not constant nastiness, which is off-putting.

But you do raise a good point about Misty vs. Kasumi's brand of anger. Maybe that should be the focus of a new thread. Where is weedle_mchairybug, as this is up his alley? (He's the expert of all things Misty, after all.)