"The Water Flowers of Cerulean City" Episode Discussion

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The Misty/Ash battle was good. Well, the Butterfree vs Staru part was good, but the "Pikachu doesn't want to battle" thing was a bit annoying because we all know Ash would easily have won. Although, it does show the bit of Pikachu's rebellious personality that ends up ebbing (very quickly) away...bit that was kind of cute, at least. The second time Ash doesn't win a battle to get a badge. Isn't the Team Rocket machine in this episode the same one they use in a few episodes time?

Oh yeah, 2 really interesting parts:
- where did Brock go?
- The infamous James line "It's times like this that make me wanna go straight"
 
^ I'm pretty sure he was... with Jenny? So, Ash once again doesn't earn a badge in an actual battle. Other than that, it was a great episode with an interesting plot.

Even though, this is like the last time we see Pidgeotto in a battle.
 
This is one of my favorite episodes. I agree it's cheesy at times but it was pretty good. Team Rocket finally breaks the law and STEALS something. We finally meet the Sensational Sisters who basically become Quasi-regulars as major recurring characters. James makes a lol moment: "Its times like these that makes me want to go straight!" While in context you understand he means instead of living a crooked life, but the time was so far off it almost seems more like an explanation for his cross-dressing.

I wish they hadn't butchered Daisy, Lily, and Violet's personalities so much, but i guess the valley girl persona fits them. Great jokes surprisingly (We've got to save the pokemon! Like, what about my hair!?!) and I think it was good Pikachu wouldn't battle we see part of his loyalties to friends (and Misty takes advantage of this later on with Togepi during the battle for Totodile). The line "You're a PikaPal" still stays one of my favorite Misty quotes of all time. Overall this is one of my top 5 favorite episodes, but then again this was the first one I watched too.
 
sirboulevard said:
James makes a lol moment: "Its times like these that makes me want to go straight!" While in context you understand he means instead of living a crooked life, but the time was so far off it almost seems more like an explanation for his cross-dressing.
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Oh, I always saw it as "he's gay and wants to be straight" haha since I don't think he's cross-dressed yet?

The line "You're a PikaPal" still stays one of my favorite Misty quotes of all time. Overall this is one of my top 5 favorite episodes, but then again this was the first one I watched too.
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Oh yeah, I always remember "Pikachu, you're a Pikapal!" I even remembered it about 6 years after watching that episode XD
 
sirboulevard said:
James makes a lol moment: "Its times like these that makes me want to go straight!" While in context you understand he means instead of living a crooked life, but the time was so far off it almost seems more like an explanation for his cross-dressing.

I wish they hadn't butchered Daisy, Lily, and Violet's personalities so much, but i guess the valley girl persona fits them.
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I didn't see the dub text, myself. Then again, I don't go looking for it. Though, Ted Lewis did a great job delivering the "straight" line. It's proof he could be just as humorous, as Eric Stuart would eventually be. Oh, well.

Okay! Time for episode comparison. Today, Dogasu goes on paint edits and the three sisters' revised characterization. Plus, there are a fun Japanese puns within that he couldn't figure -- see if you can.

https://dogasu.bulbagarden.net/comparisons/kanto/ep007.html

My commentary to be later.
 
Charaxes said:
I didn't see the dub text, myself. Then again, I don't go looking for it. Though, Ted Lewis did a great job delivering the "straight" line. It's proof he could be just as humorous, as Eric Stuart would eventually be. Oh, well.
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I recently watched some Advanced episodes. And Eric Stuart isn't funny...he's incredibly annoying. Compared to Eric Stuart Indigo League James, Battle Frontier James and Japanese James, just, wow...what happened, Eric? Every 5 seconds he goes "ooooooooohoohoohoohoohoohoo!" and talking in a girlish voice, basically killing James.

Y'know, I've always wondered what 4Kids would've done with Dawn, and I have a feeling she could've ended up like Misty's 3 sisters. But who knows?
 
Jorah said:
I recently watched some Advanced episodes. And Eric Stuart isn't funny...he's incredibly annoying. Compared to Eric Stuart Indigo League James, Battle Frontier James and Japanese James, just, wow...what happened, Eric? Every 5 seconds he goes "ooooooooohoohoohoohoohoohoo!" and talking in a girlish voice, basically killing James.

Y'know, I've always wondered what 4Kids would've done with Dawn, and I have a feeling she could've ended up like Misty's 3 sisters. But who knows?
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I didn't say on "late Eric Stuart," but don't worry -- I have no love, at all, for that. I really meant the early years, and I should have clarified it, there. That's the problem when you have a bajillion future episodes to counter with, and that's what fans go with. Me, I don't do that, but I won't stop anyone from thinking that way.

As for 4Kids handling Dawn, well, I doubt they could make her any worse than what Jeness had done. Shudders. Though, I got over it.

As for Brock's disappearence, I guess we're not allowed to know why he ditched his friends. Heh.
 
Jorah said:
I recently watched some Advanced episodes. And Eric Stuart isn't funny...he's incredibly annoying. Compared to Eric Stuart Indigo League James, Battle Frontier James and Japanese James, just, wow...what happened, Eric? Every 5 seconds he goes "ooooooooohoohoohoohoohoohoo!" and talking in a girlish voice, basically killing James.

Y'know, I've always wondered what 4Kids would've done with Dawn, and I have a feeling she could've ended up like Misty's 3 sisters. But who knows?
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You can't judge Eric's performance based on what the writers made him say. He even said thats not how he wanted James to develop (because he's said in interviews that James is his favorite character). As for the Sensational Sisters, Daisy was partially redeemed in Luvdisc is a Many Splendored Thing where she went into BA "Method Acting" mode and drove her sports car at really high speeds.
 
Charaxes said:
I didn't say on "late Eric Stuart," but don't worry -- I have no love, at all, for that. I really meant the early years, and I should have clarified it, there. That's the problem when you have a bajillion future episodes to counter with, and that's what fans go with. Me, I don't do that, but I won't stop anyone from thinking that way.

As for 4Kids handling Dawn, well, I doubt they could make her any worse than what Jeness had done. Shudders. Though, I got over it.

As for Brock's disappearence, I guess we're not allowed to know why he ditched his friends. Heh.
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I prefer the dub's voice of Dawn to the Japanese one. It's not because I'm "used" to her or anything because I love the Japanese James's voice much more than any of the dub ones haha.

sirboulevard said:
You can't judge Eric's performance based on what the writers made him say. He even said thats not how he wanted James to develop (because he's said in interviews that James is his favorite character). As for the Sensational Sisters, Daisy was partially redeemed in Luvdisc is a Many Splendored Thing where she went into BA "Method Acting" mode and drove her sports car at really high speeds.
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Well, whatever they did, I still hate James's voice by the end of Johto. It's strange how they decided not to keep the girlishness with the new VA. But I'm not complaining.
 
Jorah said:
Well, whatever they did, I still hate James's voice by the end of Johto. It's strange how they decided not to keep the girlishness with the new VA. But I'm not complaining.
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That's a given, so let's enjoy him here while we can. Ahhh. I miss that baritone in his voice, and not Homer Simpson.

How do you feel on Ted Lewis' short stint? I think he could have made it, if he had the time. Might as well discuss it, since these are his episodes, dontcha know.
 
I remember this episode to be interesting, but when I was new in Pokemon, when this episode reran, the cable went out and I couldn't watched the episode. But this episode was the first time that I learned that water conducts electricity.
 
I don't know if threads like this apply to the old "one month before it's a dead topic" rule, so if it is, I'm sorry if I'm necroposting.

Anyways, I thought this was a good episode. We got to learn a lot about Misty's backstory, she seemed to be quite powerful, a lot of things.

BTW, in regards to who would have won the fight had Team Rocket not interrupted the match, I'd remain neutral.

On one hand, Ash winning the match was of a high percentage. but on the other hand, Misty also had a chance of winning.

I can't say Ash winning was an inevitability, however. While my loyalty to Misty has a little to do with it, my main reason for my doubts about Ash winning being inevitable is more due to past episodes (More specifically, "Ash Catches a Pokemon")

In Ash Catches a Pokemon, Team Rocket was fighting against Ash Two against One. When Ekans and Koffing had basically KOed Pidgeotto, Ash's only pokemon left was Caterpie (Pikachu was out before he could even begin to fight thanks to Koffing spraying sludge on his eyes), who not only was nothing compared to Ekans OR Koffing in terms of experience (Caterpie was barely even able to fight, and had barely any battling experience to begin with, whileas Koffing and Ekans had been battling and had at least one year's worth of experience in the battlefield), but thanks to Ash's foolish decision to have Caterpie fight against Pidgeotto, was barely even able to function.

These factors, combined with the fact that it was dealing two against one would make Team Rocket's victory inevitable, correct?

It should have been, but that's wrong. Not only did Ash's Caterpie beat Ekans AND Koffing, he tore them apart like they were tissue Paper, despite all odds and seeming inevitability. To add to that fact, it even defeated Meowth, despite it being much fresher than Caterpie, and at full strength.

If Ash can beat Team Rocket despite their victory almost seemingly in inevitability, whose to say that Misty's loss against Ash is inevitable? For all we know, Misty could do something similar to Pidgeotto by using bubblebeam, surf, or even thunderbolt if it knows the move.

Also, yeah, I agree that the Double entendre with James involving "going straight" may have led up to those jokes about James's so-called "sexual orientation" that 4Kids, and to a certain extent, even PUSA, add in.
 
weedle_mchairybug said:
I don't know if threads like this apply to the old "one month before it's a dead topic" rule, so if it is, I'm sorry if I'm necroposting.

Also, yeah, I agree that the Double entendre with James involving "going straight" may have led up to those jokes about James's so-called "sexual orientation" that 4Kids, and to a certain extent, even PUSA, add in.
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Gravedigging doesn't apply to Episode Discussions, as they're ongoing. Revive as many as you like, as long as you have something germane to say in each one.

Admittedly, the joke amused me, if only for Ted Lewis' delivery. Which proves he could have done the role well, if he had the time before Eric Stuart took over. As it is, we still don't know why Lewis stepped down. Or, it's known and I'm not aware of it.
 
On the topic of James' voice (because I have nothing to say about the episode)... I can't stand Ted Lewis' or the one who does it now (dunno the voice actor's name), but especially the new one. The only one I like is Eric Stuart. Probably because that's the voice I remember from when I watched as a kid, and to me, the high pitched stuff and the o0o0o0o's are just... part of James. xD But when he's talking normally it isn't bad. The voice he has now, makes it sound like he aged backwards a little too far and went back to before-puberty or something. O_o It's not deep enough, imo. xD

As for the "going straight" line, I thought it was funny just because of what it sounds like he means, but I refuse to think James is gay...
 
It's quite evident that James wasn't gay. If he was, please explain how he could even fall in love with the ghost of Maiden's Peak?
 
weedle_mchairybug said:
It's quite evident that James wasn't gay. If he was, please explain how he could even fall in love with the ghost of Maiden's Peak?
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You could argue hypnosis, as Brock himself was in a trance about the Maiden's Peak ghost. That, or the writers felt like mixing it up with the Kojiro fanbase, or something.
 
This is a badge that Misty and Brock teased Ash about just being handed to for saving the gym, when in perspective he did earn the badge. Pidgeotto was about to defeat Starmie, its energy was running out and if it wasn't about to run out right there against the wall, one more attack and it was done for sure. With Staryu being left, I think Pidgeotto shouldn't have much trouble blowing that away as well unless Misty used the attacks from the water to lure Pidgeotto into the water like it did with Butterfree
 
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XxDawnfanxX said:
This is a badge that Misty and Brock teased Ash about just being handed to for saving the gym, when in perspective he did earn the badge. Pidgeotto was about to defeat Starmie, its energy was running out and if it wasn't about to run out right there against the wall, one more attack and it was done for sure. With Staryu being left, I think Pidgeotto shouldn't have much trouble blowing that away as well unless Misty used the attacks from the water to lure Pidgeotto into the water like it did with Butterfree
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Well, the chances of Ash winning were indeed high, but was it inevitable? Probably not. I already explained a similar situation involving Caterpie (who, given the circumstances, was in Starmie's Position) and Team Rocket's Pokemon in "Ash catches a Pokemon" in an earlier post. That example, in itself, can be applied to Starmie vs. Pidgeotto. Besides, seeing how we already know that Starmie has an ability similar to Water Absorb (as evidenced in Bye Bye Butterfree), if it manages to use just enough of it's energy to get into the pool, at just the right moment, it would have a good chance at revitalizing itself to full power. Plus, earlier in the battle, Staryu used a slightly similar ability to recover from it's stun spore paralysis. Even if it didn't, if it had used Water Gun (or Bubble Beam, assuming it has it), it might be able to cause some damage to Pidgeotto.
 
weedle_mchairybug said:
Well, the chances of Ash winning were indeed high, but was it inevitable? Probably not. I already explained a similar situation involving Caterpie (who, given the circumstances, was in Starmie's Position) and Team Rocket's Pokemon in "Ash catches a Pokemon" in an earlier post. That example, in itself, can be applied to Starmie vs. Pidgeotto. Besides, seeing how we already know that Starmie has an ability similar to Water Absorb (as evidenced in Bye Bye Butterfree), if it manages to use just enough of it's energy to get into the pool, at just the right moment, it would have a good chance at revitalizing itself to full power. Plus, earlier in the battle, Staryu used a slightly similar ability to recover from it's stun spore paralysis. Even if it didn't, if it had used Water Gun (or Bubble Beam, assuming it has it), it might be able to cause some damage to Pidgeotto.
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I don't think that Starmie would have had a chance to do anything more though, it was crushed up against the wall and it's ruby was blinking. To see if Starmie would have the chance to recover would depend on how fast Ash finished it off but we would never know because Team Rocket interrupted. Water would have helped Starmie (as it helped Staryu shake off the sleeping powder). It would have been interesting though for sure. I found it ridiuclous Pikachu wouldn't battle even against a friend but then it made the episode the way it was. We got to see Misty impress her sisters by displaying how good she was with her water pokemon and that was pretty cool.
 
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