Why does the anime hate Elite Four members?

[BettyNewbie]

Out of the 23 Elite Four members that currently exist in the games, only 12 (just over half) have appeared in the anime: Lorelei, Bruno, Agatha, Lance, Koga (as a Gym Leader), Drake, Aaron, Bertha, Flint, Lucian, Caitlin, and Siebold.

And, of the six different Elite Fours, only two--Gen 1 Indigo and Sinnoh--have seen all of their members appear on the anime. (And, only Sinnoh's all appeared in the same season and even same episode.)

One Elite Four--Gen 2 Indigo--may not even exist in the anime, as we never heard of Koga getting promoted, nor were Karen or Will ever implied to exist. We never heard of Lorelei and Agatha quitting the League, either.

On the flip-side, just about every Gym Leader except Janine either has appeared (or will appear) in the anime. (And, even Janine, at least, has a close counterpart in Aya, Koga's younger sister.)

Elite Four members are pretty much the only important NPC characters (outside of, maybe, game rivals... poor Silver and Wally) who get deliberately minimized and ignored in the anime, and for seemingly no reason, too. Why is this?

1. Tournaments make for better entertainment. You could argue that the Elite Four's role in the show was doomed as soon as they chose to end the first season with the Indigo Plateau Conference instead of the Elite Four battle from the games. And, it was a decision that made sense--How predictable would it have been for Ash to battle through the Elite Four in succession and fight Gary at the end, exactly like in the games? Having a tournament, instead, allowed them to take more time and mix things up (and, of course, have Ash lose).

2. Johto's connection to Kanto in the games threw them off. I can assume that the anime's writers probably didn't anticipate Kanto not only returning in Gen 2, but Johto also sharing the same Indigo League with Kanto. Since Ash returning to Kanto was obviously out of the question, they would've had to have created a new League for Johto, anyways, so why not just do another tournament? (This, no doubt, was what screwed over Janine, in addition to Karen and Will. They were all introduced in Gen 2 Kanto, so there was little place for them in the anime.)

3. Elite Four members get little development in the games. Seeing as the anime is known for creating brand new characters out of cloth, this argument holds little water, but I don't doubt that the show's writers have used it as an excuse for ignoring the likes of Will, Glacia, Shauntal, and Wikstrom (who are all pretty blah in the games, character-wise). While Elite Four members usually do get less character development in the games than Gym Leaders, that shouldn't matter when it comes to an adaptation like the anime.
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Of course, the existence of the Indigo League Conference didn't stop Lorelei and Bruno from appearing as COTDs early-on (and Agatha and Lance in later seasons, the latter even appearing twice). The Sinnoh arc took it even further and stated that the winner of the
Lily of the Valley Conference would go on to fight the Elite Four, thus giving that Elite Four a place in the Sinnoh League.

So, why can't the other Elite Fours (possibly excepting Gen 2's) get their fair share? Is it that hard to include, at least, more than one Elite Four member per group as a COTD? Why hasn't the idea of the Elite Four being a post-tournament challenge been used in other Leagues? Why did the Elite Four incur so much hatred from the anime's writers to begin with?

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

In all fairness, having the Gym Leaders appearing is kinda necessary since you need to beat them in order to even access the Pokémon League and by extension the Elite 4 and Champion. And I really wouldn't say they hated them since the ones who did appear did prove to be immensely powerful, with Ash not standing a chance against Lorelei/Prima, Agatha, or the Sinnoh Elite 4.

Besides, at least they got better treatment than the Hoenn Gym Leaders. Let me point this bit out: yes, they did appear, but they actually appeared to be punching bags considering the little amount of effort Ash's rookie Hoenn team managed to beat them (and please don't give me the claim that they were strong before capture. So was Ash's Kanto and Johto Teams, yet even they had to struggle against the Gym Leaders, as did the Sinnoh team). I think the only exceptions were Roxanne (due to her at least losing to Pikachu, who is a confirmed veteran) and Brawley (probably the only Gym Leader in Hoenn Ash actually had to rematch due to losing a battle, not counting Norman which was moreorless an excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games). It almost seemed as though the writers utterly hated the Hoenn Gym Leaders considering they gave them the same treatment JJM received in Ash Catches a Pokémon.

 

[BettyNewbie]

In all fairness, having the Gym Leaders appearing is kinda necessary since you need to beat them in order to even access the Pokémon League and by extension the Elite 4 and Champion. And I really wouldn't say they hated them since the ones who did appear did prove to be immensely powerful, with Ash not standing a chance against Lorelei/Prima, Agatha, or the Sinnoh Elite 4.

But, aren't Elite Four members necessary, too? In the games, you have to defeat them to become Champion, after all.

The anime, however, basically removes their important role by replacing the Leagues of the games with tournaments. Yes, they found a way to reconcile the Elite Four with the tournament in Sinnoh, but only in that region... We don't know if it's the same case with Indigo, Hoenn, Unova, and Kalos.

And, of course, the Indigo League, itself, was a huge issue. Obviously, they couldn't have Ash return to Kanto (and thus, the Indigo Plateau) like you did in GSC, so they had to create an entirely new League for Johto, aka. the Silver Conference tournament.

Assuming that the other Leagues work like Sinnoh's... What Elite Four do you battle after winning the Silver Conference? Do you head out to the Indigo Plateau like in the games, or does Johto have an Elite Four of its own at Mt. Silver? What would this "Johto Elite Four" look like if it does exist? (And, no, you can't just say "the one from Gen 2," as Bruno and Lance can't be a part of two Leagues at the same time.)

There's enough evidence to show that the Gen 2 Elite Four doesn't even exist in the anime. We never heard of Koga getting promoted, nor did we ever hear of Lorelei and Agatha quitting. I don't think Lance was ever explicitly referred to as a "Champion," either. And, of course, we never saw either Karen or Will, nor were we ever given any indication that they even existed.

(Of course, the Gen 2 Elite Four was my least favorite ever in the games, so I'm not too upset about them not existing in the anime (serves that ugly clown right for stealing Lorelei's spot and banishing her from the games' universe), but I know that other fans are.)

It's true that Elite Four members are usually portrayed as powerful when they appear... But, the keyword is when they appear. Even if they can't be shown as part of the League (with the anime's writers' preference for tournaments and all), would it be too much to bring them in as COTDs, instead? I think many people would prefer to see Elite Four members from the games over some of the anime's made-up characters.

The Kanto/Orange Era was pretty good about this with Lorelei and Bruno (although I would've liked to have seen Lance and Agatha, too... especially since they would've had their original designs; at least, we did get them later on, though), and Sinnoh, of course, did it even better. Why couldn't the other regions (sans, maybe, Johto) also do this?

Besides, at least they got better treatment than the Hoenn Gym Leaders. Let me point this bit out: yes, they did appear, but they actually appeared to be punching bags considering the little amount of effort Ash's rookie Hoenn team managed to beat them (and please don't give me the claim that they were strong before capture. So was Ash's Kanto and Johto Teams, yet even they had to struggle against the Gym Leaders, as did the Sinnoh team). I think the only exceptions were Roxanne (due to her at least losing to Pikachu, who is a confirmed veteran) and Brawley (probably the only Gym Leader in Hoenn Ash actually had to rematch due to losing a battle, not counting Norman which was moreorless an excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games). It almost seemed as though the writers utterly hated the Hoenn Gym Leaders considering they gave them the same treatment JJM received in Ash Catches a Pokémon.

I've never actually watched anything after Johto, so I'll take your word for it. Alas, I haven't heard many good things about AG's quality of writing (sans, maybe, the Battle Frontier season).

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

But, aren't Elite Four members necessary, too? In the games, you have to defeat them to become Champion, after all.

The anime, however, basically removes their important role by replacing the Leagues of the games with tournaments. Yes, they found a way to reconcile the Elite Four with the tournament in Sinnoh, but only in that region... We don't know if it's the same case with Indigo, Hoenn, Unova, and Kalos.

And, of course, the Indigo League, itself, was a huge issue. Obviously, they couldn't have Ash return to Kanto (and thus, the Indigo Plateau) like you did in GSC, so they had to create an entirely new League for Johto, aka. the Silver Conference tournament.

Assuming that the other Leagues work like Sinnoh's... What Elite Four do you battle after winning the Silver Conference? Do you head out to the Indigo Plateau like in the games, or does Johto have an Elite Four of its own at Mt. Silver? What would this "Johto Elite Four" look like if it does exist? (And, no, you can't just say "the one from Gen 2," as Bruno and Lance can't be a part of two Leagues at the same time.)

There's enough evidence to show that the Gen 2 Elite Four doesn't even exist in the anime. We never heard of Koga getting promoted, nor did we ever hear of Lorelei and Agatha quitting. I don't think Lance was ever explicitly referred to as a "Champion," either. And, of course, we never saw either Karen or Will, nor were we ever given any indication that they even existed.

(Of course, the Gen 2 Elite Four was my least favorite ever in the games, so I'm not too upset about them not existing in the anime (serves that ugly clown right for stealing Lorelei's spot and banishing her from the games' universe), but I know that other fans are.)

It's true that Elite Four members are usually portrayed as powerful when they appear... But, the keyword is when they appear. Even if they can't be shown as part of the League (with the anime's writers' preference for tournaments and all), would it be too much to bring them in as COTDs, instead? I think many people would prefer to see Elite Four members from the games over some of the anime's made-up characters.

The Kanto/Orange Era was pretty good about this with Lorelei and Bruno (although I would've liked to have seen Lance and Agatha, too... especially since they would've had their original designs; at least, we did get them later on, though), and Sinnoh, of course, did it even better. Why couldn't the other regions (sans, maybe, Johto) also do this?

They were, but as you pointed out, the Anime basically had a tournament in its place. And to be honest, I can't say I'm surprised, as they need to weed out the best before they can face them off especially when unlike the games, it's unlikely you are the only person participating in the league, or even two at most. Remember, in the games, it's implied that at most two people even manage to face the Pokémon League (yourself, and in some cases the rival), not anyone else. If they were to do it in the Anime like they did in the games, things would get pretty dull quickly.

I've never actually watched anything after Johto, so I'll take your word for it. Alas, I haven't heard many good things about AG's quality of writing (sans, maybe, the Battle Frontier season).

Yeah, no kidding. People complained about Johto and it's length, but at least Ash actually did improve in that region compared to Kanto. With Hoenn, he literally got back to where he left off and neither improved nor even sunk in rank, meaning Hoenn and to some extent AG as a whole were effectively skippable. What's the point of even sitting down and watching it when it turns out he didn't even improve at all and just stayed where he was. Sure, at least he didn't get Top 16 again because that's even worse, but even still... And thanks to May being replaced with Dawn and then having her do the same goal May does meant the inclusion of Pokémon Contests and expanding on them, probably the only truly notable aspect of AG, was effectively pointless, especially when they're unwilling to retire Ash even after he won the Battle Frontier. And even the BF, probably the only true redeeming factor of Hoenn, basically ended up denigrated in DP with not only Gary beating Ash with Electivire despite not even training anymore, but also Ash and Pikachu being humiliated by Paul's Ursaring in their rematch despite the fact that they actually beat Brandon's Regice with minimum effort, and that was a guy even Paul basically ended up being humiliated by. And honestly, if it weren't for Best Wishes, I would have said AG was the absolute worst series ever for the above reasons among others, including the extraordinarily shabby treatment of the Hoenn Gym Leaders. I know they aren't exactly supposed to be Elite 4-level strength, but even with that knowledge, they came across as exceptionally weak. Roxanne and Brawley are probably the only Gym Leaders who are unarguably actually shown to be fairly skilled, as the other Gym Leaders (yes, even Norman counts among them, because that "match" he had against Ash in the third episode of AG was a forced win on his part to force Ash to go the route of the games) were losing as badly to Ash's rookie team as Jessie, James and Meowth were to Ash's Caterpie in Ash Catches a Pokémon. What makes it worse is that this was also immediately after the frankly tasteless removal of Misty by forcing her into Cerulean Gym, which gave off a lot of needless and downright insulting and false implications about Misty's strength.

EDIT: I haven't exactly watched AG myself, but I have read up on it and various comments, and I definitely felt it was extremely unimpressive.

 

[BettyNewbie]

They were, but as you pointed out, the Anime basically had a tournament in its place. And to be honest, I can't say I'm surprised, as they need to weed out the best before they can face them off especially when unlike the games, it's unlikely you are the only person participating in the league, or even two at most. Remember, in the games, it's implied that at most two people even manage to face the Pokémon League (yourself, and in some cases the rival), not anyone else. If they were to do it in the Anime like they did in the games, things would get pretty dull quickly.

But, that still isn't an excuse to ignore the Elite Four, altogether. These people already get shafted enough in the games, character-wise; the anime excluding most of them, altogether, only rubs salt in the wounds.

I don't have many positive things to say about Adventures, but one thing I *can* give it credit for is that it gives the Elite Four more attention than either the games or pretty much any other adaptation (even if it's to butcher their characterizations by making them villains *cough*Lance*cough*).

Yeah, no kidding. People complained about Johto and it's length, but at least Ash actually did improve in that region compared to Kanto. With Hoenn, he literally got back to where he left off and neither improved nor even sunk in rank, meaning Hoenn and to some extent AG as a whole were effectively skippable. What's the point of even sitting down and watching it when it turns out he didn't even improve at all and just stayed where he was. Sure, at least he didn't get Top 16 again because that's even worse, but even still... And thanks to May being replaced with Dawn and then having her do the same goal May does meant the inclusion of Pokémon Contests and expanding on them, probably the only truly notable aspect of AG, was effectively pointless, especially when they're unwilling to retire Ash even after he won the Battle Frontier. And even the BF, probably the only true redeeming factor of Hoenn, basically ended up denigrated in DP with not only Gary beating Ash with Electivire despite not even training anymore, but also Ash and Pikachu being humiliated by Paul's Ursaring in their rematch despite the fact that they actually beat Brandon's Regice with minimum effort, and that was a guy even Paul basically ended up being humiliated by. And honestly, if it weren't for Best Wishes, I would have said AG was the absolute worst series ever for the above reasons among others, including the extraordinarily shabby treatment of the Hoenn Gym Leaders. I know they aren't exactly supposed to be Elite 4-level strength, but even with that knowledge, they came across as exceptionally weak. Roxanne and Brawley are probably the only Gym Leaders who are unarguably actually shown to be fairly skilled, as the other Gym Leaders (yes, even Norman counts among them, because that "match" he had against Ash in the third episode of AG was a forced win on his part to force Ash to go the route of the games) were losing as badly to Ash's rookie team as Jessie, James and Meowth were to Ash's Caterpie in Ash Catches a Pokémon. What makes it worse is that this was also immediately after the frankly tasteless removal of Misty by forcing her into Cerulean Gym, which gave off a lot of needless and downright insulting and false implications about Misty's strength.

EDIT: I haven't exactly watched AG myself, but I have read up on it and various comments, and I definitely felt it was extremely unimpressive.

I'm not going to lie, I'm one of those people who quit during the first Johto season. I hated all of the pointless filler, and the show seemed far more "kiddified" than it was during Kanto/Orange. I also didn't exactly welcome the return of Brock and his womanizer shtick (he had already wore out his welcome by the end of Kanto, IMO... yes, I liked Tracey), and Misty had lost most of the attitude and personality she had during Kanto/Orange. Looking back, however, I don't think the last Johto season was too bad (it had more stuff from the games, went at a faster pace, and had a satisfying conclusion), but the first two are still a drag to watch.

I don't have any use for AG or later, for the most part. Outside of the Battle Frontier and parts of DP and XY, I haven't heard many good things about the quality of writing. Ash is still a dumb 10 year old, he still loses every League, he still "resets" at the beginning of each region, and he still changes traveling partners (especially, female traveling partners) all the time. It has become the most formulaic show ever.

 

[precita]

Betty, the show resets itself every generation for new kids, its not intended to be watched the whole way through by the same audience. Also the quality of the anime never really changed besides Kanto being more comical. Every region is written almost the same way with slight alterations, its just that we're all adults now so its going to seem more repetitive.

This started with Johto, so you're right in thinking most of the beginning and middle of Johto was repetitive with formulmatic filler. Misty and Brock's personalities weren't as good as they were in Kanto, and this is when the show started its formula. They do develop most of Ash's later companions better than Misty/Brock though for what its worth.

 

[Wobbu]

Back to the topic, one could just as much argue that the games hate the elite four members. There is little reference to the elite four prior to actually meeting them, and even so the only thing we get to know about them is a short intro which explains why they are in the elite four or what they do to train. The anime, however, gives more personality to the members that do appear in it. The anime portrays the elite four as what they actually are: extremely strong Trainers that have little time for the misadventures of a ten year old, unlike the elite four in the games who get swept by a young child who just obtained their first Pokémon :V

 

[DBZ fan]

Introduction of E4 in pokemon series has always been inconsequential with writers either not following game canon or just flat out ignoring some, while giving more than one episode to others making it seem like theyre more favored. Not really because time constraints, plans changing constantly and writers inexperience all played factor in it, but to inexperienced eye it may looked like this.

Fromm Kanto E4 we saw all of them eventually(but too late in some cases). Bruno made debut in Kanto, Lorelei during Orange Island adventure, Lance played pretty important role in Johto and Hoenn in stopping Rocket and Team Aqua, Team Magma organization as member of G-man organization.

While Agatha didnt made debut until much later at end of Hoenn, right before Battle Frontier filling up as Viridian gym leader temporarily until new one is found.

Changes occuring in second generation regarding elite trainers such as Will, Karen, Koga going on higher rank ending among top 4 toughest trainer in som region(right below champion) were skipped.

While Hoenn and Unovas E4 received worst trestment with writers only showing Drake from Hoenn and Caitlin from BW as far as this class of trainers go.

To this day only saga which did them full justice was Sinnoh. We saw Lucian appearing for more than one episode breaking down status quo in revealing to Ash how after winning regional league, there is champion league. Something in case of winning(includes defeating E4 members of that region and champion)will mean overcoming one task required to come closer toward pokemon master title. I believe he mentioned that in "An Elite Meet and Greet!"if im not mistaken.

Than we saw Aaron making debut with writers exploring abit on his childhood and how he came to better understand bug types. Later challenging Cynthia and losing. Coming of as very prominent trainer acquiring this prestigious position at young age.

Bertha made her debut battling Ash Torterra and teaching him valuable lesson. Of needing to be more perceptive in battles paying attention to small details. Something Ash had problems with in localizing where her Hippowdon moves underground not being well synchronized with his own pokemon.

With Bertha strategy and advices revealing how only calculated, collected and flexible trainers can reach such level of adaptability, skill and creativity to reach elite class.

Just to see Flint appearing in multiple episodes as well battling Ash and making him learn from each batttle against such trainers how to adapt to current situation finding counter to opponent strategy.

On top of that champion Cynthia played important role through Sinnoh series appearing in several episodes, helping stop Team Galacic, battling Ash rival Paul etc.

In Sinnoh it was given impression how based on all of this and Lucian info of winnig league bringing you one step closer in advancing Ash goal. How writes may have planned that Ash wins "Lily of Valley conference" challenging DP elite four.

Bringing me to conclusion how reason why writers didn't showed four heavenly kings(Japanese name for E4)properly in most regions is because they thought how doing any build up with them wouldn't serve much purpose unless they were going to play important role in that particular saga storyline and leave impact on Ash development, In sense of challenging them and aiming for champion position.

Unlike its case with gym leaders being showcased, because they represent "bus stops" on trainer journey where he/she can earn badge fulfiling predispositions to earn right to partake in league. Being necessary for Ash quest.

Granted in Sinnoh All of E made debut and writers still skipped on Ash breaking formula making more groundbreaking progrssion of his journey and plots forming his storyline. But we also cannot exclude possibility how through all that build up with them and Cynthia(though she could receive more exposition simply because of being very first female champion in games) writers may have planned for Ash to harness fruits of his labour, but in last minute they changed plans. Which would somewhat explain rushed Sinnoh league and last minute introduction of Tobias who stopped Ash from going all the way to finals ending among top 4.

Afterall this wouldnt be first time writer team changed initial plans they had for anime. Such as planning to replace Brock permanently sfter leaving before Orange Islands changing mind and bringing him back. Planning to keep Misty as girl protagonist after Johto, but opted to rather keep TR instead.

Planning that GS ball plays major story arc in Johto ending as plothole.
Intending to do different storyline with Team Plasma in BW but were forced due to natural disaster and out of respect to families which were struck by misfortune to cancell airing of original Rocket vs Plasma confrontation. Intended return of special agent Pierce etc.

So maybe same situation happened with DP. Planning Ash to challenge E4 but eventually giving up on it.

Special Note: even if Ash won Sinnoh league and defeated E4 that would not make him pokemon master. Because Lucian explicity stared how this is just one step on road of becoming pokemon master with logic implying Ash would need to prove himself as stronger than any other champion in world to become best trainer in world. As he claims to intend to become.

Meaning there existed material even after conquering Sinnoh to do more with Ash journey, but since writers dont want to give themselves more work than needed and develop more complex directions and innovative storyline to take characters forward. They are more comfortable with status quo i guess which seems to be running ot of steam being negative for quality of journey progression and its appeal.

Continuity as well and unfinished work made with all of his replaced friends.

I'm not going to lie, I'm one of those people who quit during the first Johto season. I hated all of the pointless filler, and the show seemed far more "kiddified" than it was during Kanto/Orange. I also didn't exactly welcome the return of Brock and his womanizer shtick (he had already wore out his welcome by the end of Kanto, IMO... yes, I liked Tracey), and Misty had lost most of the attitude and personality she had during Kanto/Orange. Looking back, however, I don't think the last Johto season was too bad (it had more stuff from the games, went at a faster pace, and had a satisfying conclusion), but the first two are still a drag to watch.

In regards to Misty i dont think she lost her attitude and character in Johto.
She simply matured and went through character development enriching on her persona gaining some new quaities and better controlling some of flaws.

Why i say that?

Spoiler:

This can be noticed through her progrssion of journey in Johto coming to better understand water pokemon bonding with Marill, noticing her Poliwhirl has confidence issues helping him to overcome them. In Ash restless spirit, reckless nature and determination in risking life to save pokemon leaving influence on Misty character. Starting to admire that and get over her prejudices developed toeward pokemon. Such as acepting Psyduck despiute his hamndicap driving her crazy(best showed in battle vs Dorian in "Just Add Water!" pushing Psyduck to side to save him from ending sucked by TR crab mecha being pulled herself into it).

In how Misty confined herself to Sakura(youngest of KImono sisters) becpoming her friend, how much she learned when traveling with Ash and Brock being important to her viewing them as "her faily"(she never in reality had given how sisters treated her growing withoiut parents).Or talking about wanting to become water master and reach strength her idol E4 Lorelei has one day.
Etc, etc.

Il agree how in middle of Johto Misty did stagnated at times during fillers which didnt helped push story of anyone. But Master Quest (last Johto season)starting with Whirl islands fixed that with Misty getting lot of development and great action there.Just to be even better in chronicles and Hoenn cameos.

Still having lot of personality . Her charm, witty sarcasm, hotheaded nature, her humor and quirky side being passionate about battling,water pokemon,hobbies etc. While becoming more indeperndent, compassionate, outgoing and tougher as person and trainer(being pretty cool how she got over Gyarados trauma obtaining it for example).

As for Johto well i cannot deny how some things went south there(writers inexperience in writing for long sagas with Johto being first try and drop of GS ball caused it). Although it still had more emotion, bertter continuity and feeling like Ash and friends strory is moving somewhere being treated like one big story(sequel to first two seasons) which eventually lost its point in future sagas. With things although at snail pace still moving somewhere. Things became rather worse later with literal resets of Ash character, disrespect toward past and revamps.

When looking at story as whole(including how it progress plots, characters, keeps ties to past and all those abandoned replaced girls and males like they never existed eventually) and what has achieved after all this time. Results are devastating.

P.S.Apologies for bringing this up, but i found this subject to be interesting to talk about. Wanting to add my 2 cents on it.