Aegislash Suspect Test

[oshizlgzngahr]

I didn't say Aegislash WASN'T broken, I said it's ass in Ubers and that it doesn't matter if a Pokemon is bad or good in Ubers, what matters is that it (potentially) is broken in OU. Example: Deoxys-N.

Well it is broken in ubers. Another example of a Pokemon that sucks in ubers, but was amazing in OU is mega lucario (who in my opinion was easier to handle than aegislash)

 

[MoxieInfinite]

Well it is broken in ubers. Another example of a Pokemon that sucks in ubers, but was amazing in OU is mega lucario (who in my opinion was easier to handle than aegislash)

And how many teams have you buildt/used yet? 3? Mega Lucario was far worse than Aegislash.

 

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

Mega Lucario was beyond overpowered. Aegislash (heh) was a shaky check to physical variants, since it could use King's Shield as the opposing Lucario tried to use Crunch to get past it, thus lowering its attack stat and then go for the OHKO with a simple Sacred Sword. But then special Mega Lucario came in and OHKOed poor thing with +2 Dark Pulse. Nothing could counter both variants of Mega Lucario, so you had to rely on checks and revenge killers to beat it (and then, you had to be wary of ExtremeSpeed, Bullet Punch and Vacuum Wave, which all hurt badly at +2).

The same can't be said about Aegislash. You need prediction and thought to use it at its full capacity. On top of that, Aegislash is very slow and Shadow Sneak doesn't even hit that hard. The Shuca Berry variant is the most dangerous one in my opinion but it doesn't push it over the edge.

 

[oshizlgzngahr]

And how many teams have you buildt/used yet? 3? Mega Lucario was far worse than Aegislash.

I've used countless teams, I guess my teams could counter mega lucario fairly easily.

 

[Nah]

Well it is broken in ubers. Another example of a Pokemon that sucks in ubers, but was amazing in OU is mega lucario (who in my opinion was easier to handle than aegislash)

Aegislash isn't really all that broken in Ubers. I've played plenty of Ubers, and its not that ridiculous in there. Besides, Moxie's original point still stands: How a Pokemon fares in another tier doesn't matter when considering if it should be banned in its current tier. Better to make a poke useless in its new tier than make people suffer from it in its current tier.

And remember people, this thread is about Aegislash, not Mega Lucario.

 

[Juxapose]

I have no problems with Aegislash. Easiest Pokemon to take down. But mainly because my team can KO it rather easily.

 

[oshizlgzngahr]

Aegislash isn't really all that broken in Ubers. I've played plenty of Ubers, and its not that ridiculous in there. Besides, Moxie's original point still stands: How a Pokemon fares in another tier doesn't matter when considering if it should be banned in its current tier. Better to make a poke useless in its new tier than make people suffer from it in its current tier.

And remember people, this thread is about Aegislash, not Mega Lucario.

Crap, I had a typo, I meant to say it was broken in OU, not ubers..

 

[Anti]

I have no problems with Aegislash. Easiest Pokemon to take down. But mainly because my team can KO it rather easily.

Hmm, easiest Pokemon to take down, eh? No problems whatsoever? This post seems credible!

 

[MoxieInfinite]

I fear that banning Aegislash will be like banning Lax in GSC. People lose their auto-check to most things, a role I find somewhat necessary in such an offensive metagame. Without Aegislash, far too many dumb sweepers/cleaners/wallbreakers/whatever can run through, and the meta would just end up as uncreative and it can mostly be explained in these three simple steps:

1. Sac something
2. Kill something
3. Repeat

My theorycrafting might be wrong, but from what I've seen on the suspect ladder, it isn't.

Then again, I literally don't give a ♥♥♥♥. I gave up XY OU a long time ago, and the only reason I'd ever play it again is for Tour/WCoP.

 

[Anti]

I fear that banning Aegislash will be like banning Lax in GSC. People lose their auto-check to most things, a role I find somewhat necessary in such an offensive metagame. Without Aegislash, far too many dumb sweepers/cleaners/wallbreakers/whatever can run through, and the meta would just end up as uncreative and it can mostly be explained in these three simple steps:

1. Sac something
2. Kill something
3. Repeat

My theorycrafting might be wrong, but from what I've seen on the suspect ladder, it isn't.

Then again, I literally don't give a ♥♥♥♥. I gave up XY OU a long time ago, and the only reason I'd ever play it again is for Tour/WCoP.

Not to go too off-topic here, but I think a major problem is how slow the tiering process is. I wish it was more efficient so other broken mons could get tests and banned. A ton of people have brought up how Aeg is the glue Pokemon of the metagame, but it's just barely checking all of the broken Pokemon running around in OU. I guess my counterpoint is that I wonder how much of a difference it makes. The metagame is largely what you've described with Aegislash.

So maybe it's the attackers themselves that are the problem?

*Landorus-I has Sheer Force and LO boosts that give it insane power while it somehow avoids being choice-locked or pounded by residual damage. It has Knock Off and Calm Mind to add insult to injury and murders stall. Offense has to revenge kill. Doesn't sound broken to me!

*Mega Charizard X is incredibly difficult to reliably check for any team not running Unaware Quagsire/Clefable and can nab free set-up because of the 50/50 it creates because of Zard Y. Oh yeah, Talon is the only Poke with priority that hurts it and it's immune to burn. Awesome!

*Mega Mawile has an effective base 259 base Attack and has STAB on a really good offensive type (Fairy), power priority that creates even more 50/50s, and decent coverage options that allow it to choose its checks. Great!

*Mega Pinsir has high base power moves, strong priority, Swords Dance, and really good Speed. It has "checks" that all need to be healthy or it just smashes you, and if its user keeps SR off the field, you're pretty much screwed. And this is our A+ rank mega. Cool!

*Talonflame is low key awful, people complain about Thundurus priority Thunder Wave but this guy has priority Brave Bird for heaven's sake, can RK, sweep, Roost off SR damage, cripple checks with burn, abuse U-turn, and just generally be the worst thing ever. Yeah!

*Aegislash has been discussed to death but let's just say that you better have a bulky switch-in and a really freaking strong super-effective move that doesn't get neutered by KS or you might be in some trouble!!!!! Glad he's here!

*Mega Gyarados gets to choose its defensive typing to set up on whatever it wants and abuses everything with Mold Breaker and incredible power, bulk, and Speed. Waterfall even has a flinch chance! I'm also glad he's here!

*Thundurus has Prankster Taunt, Thunder Wave, and weather, and oh yeah, it sits at a 111 Speed tier with access to Nasty Plot and a ton of different options to break down checks (Superpower, Psychic, HP Fly, Knock Off, still Thunder Wave). At least Stealth Rock helps with it!

*Bisharp creates a ton of Sucker Punch 50/50s, can abuse Knock Off, has an amazing offensive ability, and has useful resists to get in on a bunch of stuff. It also destroys the only good offensive Defoggers in OU, because heaven forbid insanely overpowered sweepers be stripped of free hazard damage!

*Keldeo has Specs Scald coming off of 129 base SAtk and the best anti-Chansey special attack there is. Even better, it has decent bulk, some good resists, and can even serve as a wincon because it's so fast and Hydro Pump hits so damn hard. Woo Scald!


I could keep going, but these are the main culprits. I'm not saying ban them all, but I am absolutely suggesting that OU has a glut is VERY good attackers that makes the metagame top-heavy. Some above are broken, some aren't, but if Aeg is the dam holding back broken Pokemon running amok, I wish we'd just ban them. Because seriously, something with Belly Drum and STAB priority is like the fourteenth most threatening thing in the tier. I mean seriously.

/rant

(take w/ a grain of salt lol)

 

[champagnepapi]

That's a good point Anti, although there are other pokes like Megacham, M Hera, M Gardevoir, Zam that have yet to emerge at all because Aegislash is keeping them down, so the meta may even get more hectic. It's been brought up that diversity isn't a good thing when it's too egregious and every game becomes substantially more reliant on team matchup, and I agree with this point. This isn't a reason to keep Aegislash but it does draw into question the claims that "aegislash is unhealthy for the meta"

Also I've never seen my dislike for Land put so well. For such an incredible attacker there's few drawbacks outside of its still respectable speed, and it's very hard to wear down. This could be seen as a weakness since it doesn't have the resistance like Latios that allows it to come in on more, but against defensive teams Land's durability is pretty lethal. Earth Powers that can KO a quagsire and only 12 damage of residual if SR is up every time it comes in [and its hard to force out], plus Knock Off as well, pretty crazy.

 

[Anti]

I mean I agree to an extent but while I think Medicham and Hera are huge stall destroyers, they can be run as specialists and ignore the presence of Aeg since it's not a very common stall mon, so not sure if I buy that Aeg is keeping stall afloat. Kinda the same deal with Medicham. Gardevoir is interesting, but OU has a lot of strong physical attacks that can overpower it.

Of course, I can theorymon all day, but the real point I guess is that I think those threats will get a lot better without Aeg (don't forget Terrakion), but I'm frankly way more concerned about all the broken stuff already available for use (much of it totally unchecked by Aeg) and if those pokes like Gard prove to be broken then we can ban them too, but idk it's really difficult to fear breaker MHera when stuff like Landorus which is significantly more threatening regardless of Aeg is still running around.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Thanks for that anti, i touched on something similar i think a few weeks ago kinda when i said "everything is broken in xy".


I still also think a blanket ban or something on megas would be healthy for the metagame. I mean some like MegaManectric arent really broken, but for the most part yeah alot of them are pretty unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[JustJeff]

To me, I always thought Aegislash was #1 in the OU Tier next to Thundurus being #2. It's Ability, Stats, and Move pool is far greater than above average. To continue the thread, I don't think it's over-powered at all, but on the other hand, I do want to see a Ban on him? or it? The problem I see on him is that it checks way too many pKmN. With being gone in the OU Metagame, I guarantee the Meta is going to Change quite a large amount. Old sets will be coming back and some pKmN that are in lower tiers will become OU. Of course it definitely has its counters being Bisharp and Mandibuzz, but don't all pKmN do? It would be quite interesting if it does get a Ban.
As for me, i'm kinda on the neutral side on this suspect test. I love how the meta changes, and I love on new things people bring just to counter 1 pKmN. Kinda anxious on how this suspect test will take place. Will he get a Ban or will he stay in the OU tier? Stay tuned~!

 

[PlatinumDude]

To me, I always thought Aegislash was #1 in the OU Tier next to Thundurus being #2. It's Ability, Stats, and Move pool is far greater than above average. To continue the thread, I don't think it's over-powered at all, but on the other hand, I do want to see a Ban on him? or it? The problem I see on him is that it checks way too many pKmN. With being gone in the OU Metagame, I guarantee the Meta is going to Change quite a large amount. Old sets will be coming back and some pKmN that are in lower tiers will become OU. Of course it definitely has its counters being Bisharp and Mandibuzz, but don't all pKmN do? It would be quite interesting if it does get a Ban.
As for me, i'm kinda on the neutral side on this suspect test. I love how the meta changes, and I love on new things people bring just to counter 1 pKmN. Kinda anxious on how this suspect test will take place. Will he get a Ban or will he stay in the OU tier? Stay tuned~!

Technicially, Aegislash has no counters in general. While Bisharp and Mandibuzz are generally the best ways to deal with it, the former won't like switching into Sacred Sword, making Bisharp a check at best. The latter won't like dealing with the SubToxic set. In other words, it's hard to find counters for Aegislash until its set has been revealed.

Anyway, I'm neutral on Aegislash's ban too. While it does a good job at doing what it does in OU (checking and countering plenty of things including, but not limited to Mega Medicham, Fire Blast-less Togekiss, Mega Mawile, etc.), it doesn't do that well in Ubers, due to its common weaknesses there.

 

[srinator]

Anyway, I'm neutral on Aegislash's ban too. While it does a good job at doing what it does in OU (checking and countering plenty of things including, but not limited to Mega Medicham, Fire Blast-less Togekiss, Mega Mawile, etc.), it doesn't do that well in Ubers, due to its common weaknesses there.

i thought i would mention this, how it does in uber should not be an argument to be kept i mind while deciding the fate of the mon, the current tier should be the soul reason.
what it does in higher tier is up to it but if it is broken in the current ou tier then it has no business being there.
plus it has a small niche in ubers by checking the biggest threat there mainly geoxern, but thats not point.

 

[Zeffy]

It's been a little over 24 hours since my last post, and no votes have changed...

Aegislash is banned with 57 ban / 35 do not ban / 1 abstention for a 62% ban supermajority.

This change will be reflected on our tournaments and ladders asap.

Thanks and look forward to the next test!

Aaaand it's banned. Rejoice / grieve I guess. While we're at it, what do you think should be the next suspect?

 

[Anti]

Aaaand it's banned. Rejoice / grieve I guess. While we're at it, what do you think should be the next suspect?

in order from most to least broken (imo):

mega mawile
mega charizard x (largely cause y exists)
thundurus
landorus
mega pinsir

nothing else is really broken imo though i do find gyarados to be low key amazing esp if thund gets banned, and i think that's nearly certain

also kinda wonder if an exca test may happen sometime down the road, maybe like a year, cause it's actually sort of incredible and sand offense is a 10/10 playstyle atm imo

 

[Dark Phantom Samurai]

Whats this concept of tiers? Im new to the online communtiy of pokemon.

I apologize if i've missed the point ive no idea what ubers are or what the Pokemon communitys definition of a 'counter-pokemon' is, however im getting the idea you need pokemon to effectively knock Aegislash down swiftly?

I admire Aegisalsh and have one. He gets countered pretty easily, here are some examples:
Mega Bannette - Phantom Forced/Shadow Sneaked
Honchkrow -Sucker Punched/Paybacked
Zoroark -Focus sash/Flamethrower
Garchomp -Earthquaked
Mega Blaziken -Ugh i hate these so much...
Mega Aggron -Earthquake hack away.
Weavile -Swords Dance baited/Then Night Slash Or Substitute
Chandelure -Spammed with never-ending flamethrowers. especially lethal if given focus sash, like i've witnessed so many times...
Haxourus - Dragon Dance/ Earthquaked
Magnezone -Sturdy/Spammed with Discharge plus toxic proof.
And a lot more. {All pokemon listed above are effective in countering the most common aegislash sets on there own eg. Wall/Sp.Attacker/Physical/Life orb Sets etc.}

Again Apologize if i have veered of topic here.

 

[Nah]

Oh, so they did decide to ban Aegislash. I never exactly cared about it either way, but whatever.

If something else has to be banned, the next most likely thing in my mind is Thundurus. Prankster Taunt+Thunder Wave and above average Speed and Sp.Attack? Plus the fact that it was Ubers last gen and nothing really bad happened to it (as far as I know) in the generation shift? Yeah, sounds like its suspect test worthy to me.

also kinda wonder if an exca test may happen sometime down the road, maybe like a year, cause it's actually sort of incredible and sand offense is a 10/10 playstyle atm imo

But who uses sand offense anymore? I haven't seen a Sand Rush Excadrill since Gen 6 started.

Whats this concept of tiers? Im new to the online communtiy of pokemon.

I apologize if i've missed the point ive no idea what ubers are or what the Pokemon communitys definition of a 'counter-pokemon' is, however im getting the idea you need pokemon to effectively knock Aegislash down swiftly?

A basic introduction to Smogon's tiering system:
https://www.smogon.com/xyhub/tiers

Note that while they say that tiering is based solely on usage, it's kinda both usage and how good something is in general.