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Are we too soft?

Hands

I was saying Boo-urns
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    Thank you for finding the words I could not. I probably could have clarified this a little better, but what you said basically is what I'm going after. People with mental illnesses and other such issues need resources to turn to, and I do know from experience - I live with someone who is bipolar, and after learning about the degrees in which mental illnesses come through as in psychology, I'm all for giving them the help they need. However, I wouldn't lump together people that have mental illnesses with people that take offense to every other word that is spoken - there's a large variance between the two and they simply shouldn't be mixed in any environment. Under the right circumstances, it could even cause more tension, which is the last thing that's needed.

    But to have a room for people that are "oppressed" or are easily offended by plainly everyday things I don't have a liking towards, not to mention it's highly unrealistic, and that's initially where I was going with this. From what I'm aware of, schools made these safe spaces specifically for these people, which I don't like. If the safe space were for people only with mental illnesses or other previous issues (Such as harassment and bullying as mentioned), I would be much more fine with it, and I wouldn't call those people soft - I'd call them survivors.

    Yeah I understand what you're saying but the problem is those people exist everywhere. The most vocal (and usually worst) minority is just that, a minority. I think safe spaces as a concept are great. I didn't have anything like that when I was in school when I got bullied. I wasn't really safe anywhere and as a result instead of being able to deal with it in a healthy environment I started bullying people myself.

    I get that some people take being offended to the extreme. But we shouldn't doubt the validity of the safe space concept because of them. And if they really are offended that easily then maybe they should be given somewhere where they're just out of the way of whatever's upset them so that everyone else can just get on with things.
     

    Melody

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  • No; Society isn't getting any softer. We're just getting tougher. Step by step, we're overturning and rejecting things that never should have been overlooked in the first place.

    There are several generations growing up and coming into their own as adults. Kicking and screaming and bitching and moaning is just part of that process. There actually Is a lot wrong with society. And our generation isn't taking it. The information age, the age of the internet has always boldly taken our civilization to frontiers it in the past never had time to consider before. So of course there's a lot of discontent! We're growing as a society. There's a lot we're working to change for the better. So there's nothing wrong with feminism or activism. There's nothing wrong with being upset with antiquated gender roles. There's no harm in being upset if someone treats you poorly because "Society told them to". There's no wrong in defying Racism, Sexism or anything else that is clearly a huge problem that others want to sweep under the rug.

    If these changes bother you; that should be your signal, you're part of the problem. You shouldn't be standing by and letting things like that stand because "That's just the way it is". Instead, do a little bit. Say something. I'm not in any way condoning that anyone actually overreact. I'm just saying that it's not wrong to get tougher about things that are wrong with society. There's no harm in getting a little upset and stimulating conversation about something. It's not softness when you show that you've taken offense to something. It's actually being pretty tough, and standing up for your feelings and status as a human being. Sometimes we need to remind each other that we're all humans together, and it furthers our shared goals none, when we treat each other like crap.
     

    Nolafus

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  • I wouldn't believe that claim unless it was very well explained and supported.
    Like I said, I did read it a while ago, but I did manage to find a couple of articles that seem to have some thought put into them.

    https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publ...ol-students-stress-and-coping-mechanisms.html
    https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2000/12/anxiety.aspx

    How is the list of requirements ever-growing if the general consensus is that the education system is weakening? Actually, I thought a big complaint about the American education system was that standards are decreasing, not increasing.
    I know when I was in high school, the requirements for graduation were lower than what they are now. They bumped up the math and language required to get a diploma, and it looks like there's more stuff being added on the way. There's a lot of pressure to get into college, and a good one at that. I know one requirement that the school board was debating about was requiring two years of a foreign language, which many kids already did, but the counter argument was that requiring it would bump up the college requirements to something more than two years. Regardless if the requirements are actually going up or not, the pressure to move on and continue schooling well past high school is going up a lot. If you believe the long article I posted above, then the top colleges are only accepting 5%-6% of applicants. Kids are under a lot of stress these days, and I believe school is a major part of that.
     
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    Alot of this activism has often lead to Extremist and that's when i don't support it. Yes things are a bit bad bad but if i had to pick between the way things are now and the way these extremists want things i would pick the way things now. But that is just a group of these people and I'm ok with the ones who are actually trying to stand up against Sexism and Racism in a non extremist way to fix the problem unlike the other part of the population that gets "triggered" over everything and wants their new gender they made up about five minutes ago accepted by the government and want everything to work the way they want it because they're special snowflakes who can't take the slightest thing without shouting "triggered" and calling for a safe space.
     

    Her

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    Alot of this activism has often lead to Extremist and that's when i don't support it. Yes things are a bit bad bad but if i had to pick between the way things are now and the way these extremists want things i would pick the way things now. But that is just a group of these people and I'm ok with the ones who are actually trying to stand up against Sexism and Racism in a non extremist way to fix the problem unlike the other part of the population that gets "triggered" over everything and wants their new gender they made up about five minutes ago accepted by the government and want everything to work the way they want it because they're special snowflakes who can't take the slightest thing without shouting "triggered" and calling for a safe space.

    I'm not taking any position in the topic, but one of the reasons why I made this thread is because I am rather tired of the callous hyper-exaggeration of these sorts of things. While there are obviously going to be outliers that do indeed fit your description, it would do you well to keep your criticisms grounded and not fly off into impetuous judgements based mostly on word of mouth and clickbait extremes.
     
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  • I can see someone making the case that we're not as "hard" a society as we used to be in, say, the 1950s, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily better or worse. My experience has been that aside from a vocal minority (that sounds even louder online) most people have pretty reasonable requests. It takes a lot of courage to tell someone you don't like what they're doing or saying, and it's easy to forget that when you've never had to do that. Personally I'm more of a hard than a soft person, but I do have a lot of respect for people who want to create a more welcoming place. It's not my place to say whether or not someone can be offended or hurt by something I do, so I don't see any benefit from just telling them that they're soft or weak. I certainly have my personal opinions on things, and I do have some concern about the interactions between free speech and things like speech codes at universities, the world won't end over any of that. People need to be soft and hard at different times and in different areas of life.
     

    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    Alot of this activism has often lead to Extremist and that's when i don't support it. Yes things are a bit bad bad but if i had to pick between the way things are now and the way these extremists want things i would pick the way things now. But that is just a group of these people and I'm ok with the ones who are actually trying to stand up against Sexism and Racism in a non extremist way to fix the problem unlike the other part of the population that gets "triggered" over everything and wants their new gender they made up about five minutes ago accepted by the government and want everything to work the way they want it because they're special snowflakes who can't take the slightest thing without shouting "triggered" and calling for a safe space.

    Twice now in one thread you've pushed this false notion of "new genders made up five minutes ago"

    Let me explain something very simple to you very clearly. /pol/ or Sargon of Akkad, or Meninist or Sweet yet slightly spicy memes for alt right anime loving teens or whatever gutter media you're getting this idea from are simply full of crap. It rarely happens in real life.

    Also the only people shouting "triggered" are alt right morons who scream at anyone who argues against blatant racism and sexism.
     
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  • Like I said, I did read it a while ago, but I did manage to find a couple of articles that seem to have some thought put into them.

    https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publ...ol-students-stress-and-coping-mechanisms.html
    https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2000/12/anxiety.aspx

    First article is about private schools. According to Wikipedia, private school make up about 10% of the student population in the US. I would imagine that they are disproportionally stressed, but also disproportionally privileged and accomplished students. Private schools are expensive, and the rich parents who invest so much money in them probably see them somewhat transactionally (I'm dropping several $10k's over several years, I'd better get an Ivy league degree out of this).

    And the second article made the comparison not with insane asylum patients, but child psychiatric patients. Which is a much more understandable comparison, because I imagine most psychiatric patients don't end up in an insane asylum. I don't think much compares with the stress of literally taking years away from your life.

    I know when I was in high school, the requirements for graduation were lower than what they are now. They bumped up the math and language required to get a diploma, and it looks like there's more stuff being added on the way. There's a lot of pressure to get into college, and a good one at that. I know one requirement that the school board was debating about was requiring two years of a foreign language, which many kids already did, but the counter argument was that requiring it would bump up the college requirements to something more than two years. Regardless if the requirements are actually going up or not, the pressure to move on and continue schooling well past high school is going up a lot. If you believe the long article I posted above, then the top colleges are only accepting 5%-6% of applicants. Kids are under a lot of stress these days, and I believe school is a major part of that.

    I'm not personally knowledgeable about the way things work in the US, but I suspect that the trend was that high school requirements were actually decreasing for decades, and the recent increase is just an attempt to reverse that trend. Don't you have to take 2 years of Spanish in high school anyways? Are they talking about a third language? And the vast majority of people don't end up in a top college, and I can't imagine why nobody but the most accomplished and privileged students would imagine being able to attend one.
     

    Shamol

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  • Thanks for opening this thread Harley. I've been patiently watching this discussion unfold, and it developed the way I was suspecting it would. I really have one long point to make about this issue.

    The main issue is simply this. To an extent at least, the two sides of the debate talk past one another. Let me try and spell out how I think it happens. I'll use the so-called gamergate controversy as a paradigm case (albeit somewhat extreme). Two of the major complaints made by Sarkeesian and co. were sexual objectification of women in the video game industry and disproportionate amounts of harassment targeted at women online. Now leaving aside issues of Sarkeesian's personal honesty, responsibility in research, and transparency, many (most?) people felt there was something wrong with her complaints themselves.

    Importantly, this is not to say that to the minds of these people, the content of Sarkeesian's complaints were invalid. I mean I doubt many people would think online harassment is something we should celebrate, or even ignore. While few would think there needs to be legal action involved (except in cases of libel, slander or defamation), they do need to be socially stigmatized. No society should promote harassment for the sake of it. Same goes with sexual objectification- its effects are tangible and have been reported (link); it's tied to body image perceptions, and women do suffer from negative body image more so than men (link, other link); and to top it all off- media and advertising have been instrumental in manipulating especially women's body image for their own purpose (link). The most reasonable counter-arguments to the complaints by Sarkeesian, therefore, wasn't that objectification and harassment aren't objectively concerning issues, but that locating instances thereof in video games and comment sections simply isn't that important. There are more important things to focus on in life, more difficult problems to solve, and hence their efforts would probably be better spent elsewhere. This basic reasoning was tied to other concerns too- of them that by using the name of feminism to probe into insignificant issues, Sarkeesian and co. were diverting attention away from more important instances of sexism which do legitimately deserve our attention.

    Now, whether you agree or disagree to this line of thinking, it's certainly more respectable than simply saying sexism or objectification isn't a social concern at all. As I see it, the distinction wasn't always made explicit. This is where the talking past one another began. The whole situation was made more complex by the fact that some of the most vocal critics of Sarkeesian included controversial, even disreputable figures.

    At this point, I'll step out of the gamergate example and try and generalize some of these points. Every time a debate on this issue occurs- be it on so-called safe spaces, racial appropriation, anything that might be seen as something of a cry wolf- I see people dividing up into two unbridgeable, non-negotiable factions of thought. Most of the time, the people who think we're too soft and coddled a generation (unless, of course, they're genuinely racist or sexist- in which case their points don't deserve any room on the discussion table) believe these are simply manufactured grievances- we're bringing too much attention to something insignificant. Due to the polarized nature of the discourse, this message doesn't always make its way to the other side; and said other side feels their interlocutors don't think racism and sexism are real concerns.

    This is also because the most vocal parts of both sides tend to be the most extreme voices. Interestingly, there's an expectation from the more 'moderate' liberals/progressives to speak out against the more extreme fringes of their movement (one of the most famous recent instances is probably Sargon of Akkad's appeal to The Young Turks' Cenk Uygur, link). However, as one poster above pointed out, it makes little sense for someone to condemn that one fringe person on Tumblr claiming the existence of '33 genders' when homophobia is an actual, tangible issue in society. 9 times out of 10 a liberal commentator would be more invested in talking about actual racism and homophobia instead of talking about the fringe.

    All in all, the discussions continue to become more and more polarizing, the tones become more and more obnoxious. We continue to see the development of two self-containing echo chambers at both sides of the discussion. All of the important nuances and distinctions and clarifications probably lie somewhere in the middle.

    Hopefully this made at least some extent of sense.
     

    Nolafus

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  • First article is about private schools. According to Wikipedia, private school make up about 10% of the student population in the US. I would imagine that they are disproportionally stressed, but also disproportionally privileged and accomplished students. Private schools are expensive, and the rich parents who invest so much money in them probably see them somewhat transactionally (I'm dropping several $10k's over several years, I'd better get an Ivy league degree out of this).

    And the second article made the comparison not with insane asylum patients, but child psychiatric patients. Which is a much more understandable comparison, because I imagine most psychiatric patients don't end up in an insane asylum. I don't think much compares with the stress of literally taking years away from your life.
    It had been a while since I remember reading something like my previous claim, and I did actually find an article with pretty much the same headline, but you had to be subscribed to the magazine in order to have access to the article, so those were the closest two I could find after a while of searching.

    I'm not personally knowledgeable about the way things work in the US, but I suspect that the trend was that high school requirements were actually decreasing for decades, and the recent increase is just an attempt to reverse that trend. Don't you have to take 2 years of Spanish in high school anyways? Are they talking about a third language? And the vast majority of people don't end up in a top college, and I can't imagine why nobody but the most accomplished and privileged students would imagine being able to attend one.
    At least in my high school, you didn't have to take any foreign language class in order to graduate, but all of the colleges required at least two years, so practically everyone took either French, Spanish, or German. If it's not the same in other places, then I'll still say that the pressure to move on to college is definitely greater. My main point is that the constant pressure to perform well and the stress that comes along with it isn't a good thing to developing young minds, and is most likely a major factor on why society is the way it is.

    If it's not school that's a major factor on why the youngest generation seems a lot "softer", then I'm curious to see what you think what's causing the shift, if you think there's a shift at all.
     
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    Twice now in one thread you've pushed this false notion of "new genders made up five minutes ago"

    Let me explain something very simple to you very clearly. /pol/ or Sargon of Akkad, or Meninist or Sweet yet slightly spicy memes for alt right anime loving teens or whatever gutter media you're getting this idea from are simply full of crap. It rarely happens in real life.

    Also the only people shouting "triggered" are alt right morons who scream at anyone who argues against blatant racism and sexism.

    I've seen it happen in real life before, I've seen someone argue for a stupid gender they made up and want people to recognize it.

    So bitching at someone for making a joke that's got the slightest bit of racial undertones is standing up and fighting the good course against blatant racism and sexism. Because you know last time i checked i thought that it was meant to comedy and not a KKK rally but i guess i'm wrong and i need to check my privilege. I've seen special snowflakes get "triggered" over the smallest joke or anything that goes against what they want.
     
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  • At least in my high school, you didn't have to take any foreign language class in order to graduate, but all of the colleges required at least two years, so practically everyone took either French, Spanish, or German. If it's not the same in other places, then I'll still say that the pressure to move on to college is definitely greater. My main point is that the constant pressure to perform well and the stress that comes along with it isn't a good thing to developing young minds, and is most likely a major factor on why society is the way it is.

    If it's not school that's a major factor on why the youngest generation seems a lot "softer", then I'm curious to see what you think what's causing the shift, if you think there's a shift at all.

    That's a tough question, tbh. Is there a shift? I don't know to be honest. I'm not sure if our generation is "softer" per se. If there's more whining, my opinion is that it's due to there being social media and the Internet to communicating said whining. Otherwise, I think the vast majority of youth today trudge through their 20's as hard as any other generation. I think the vast majority of us has it worse than previous generations, due to declining incomes, but that's definitely not an issue of softness.
     

    0

    Happy and at peace. :)
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  • Spoiler:
    Well, Shamol, now that I think about it, most of this is right. One problem is that you forgot the third group, the lurkers/observers.


    You know, now that I wonder about it, how many debates are really just that? Two factions, neither listening to each other, just trying to get their point across. Your point actually made me think about most foghts/arguements. Why? What is it? Ego? I'm not saying all of them, but most arguments seem to be like that. Thanks.
     

    Hands

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    I've seen it happen in real life before, I've seen someone argue for a stupid gender they made up and want people to recognize it.

    Where was this? Was it to a Govt official? What was the gender they made up? You'll have to forgive me but I absolutely think you're just making this up.

    So *****ing at someone for making a joke that's got the slightest bit of racial undertones is standing up and fighting the good course against blatant racism and sexism..

    Explain "racial undertones". Hell, tell us the joke you're referring to here. If your joke is just a racist statement or something like "oh goy do jews love that money" then yeah, that should be challenged because its just a racist statement lazily dressed up like a joke that only a complete donut could find funny.

    Because you know last time i checked i thought that it was meant to comedy and not a KKK rally but i guess i'm wrong and i need to check my privilege.

    Another thing people barely say in real life.
    It's only a comedy if its funny. Refer to the earlier part of my reply.

    I've seen special snowflakes get "triggered" over the smallest joke or anything that goes against what they want

    The only person who seems "triggered" here buddy is you.

    I find the whole notion that we're becoming more soft than say, the 50s and 60s, based on progressive movements absolutely laughable.

    We are simply continuing and expanding on the ideals great figures like Dr King Jr, JFK, Dwight D Eisenhower, Nye Bevan and FDR put forward. We are simply trying to make the world they envisioned, that many of them fought a World War for, a reality.

    And old Ike was one of the toughest, most hardened men around.

    There's nothing soft about taking on the broken establishment, in fact, it is an act of notable courage to speak out against what is wrong.
     
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    zakisrage

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  • I think society is too soft. Many young people are offended by even the slightest injustice in the world. Much of this is due to the fact that political correctness has gone from snark bait to acceptable in the past 5-10 years. The political centre is also disappearing - now people seem to be divided between extreme leftists and extreme rightists. Don't get me wrong, I support gay rights and feminism, but I prefer mainstream equality-based activism instead of the SJW kind of activism.

    Heck, sometimes I've had trouble talking about my Islamic faith with other people because on more than one occasion people have accused me of Islamophobia when I talked about problems that disproportionately affect the Muslim community, such as radicalism, crime (especially among Muslims in Australia and Europe), domestic violence, arranged marriages, misogyny, homophobia, and anti-Semitism. A lot of young people equate criticising problems that are rampant within Muslim communities with Islamophobia. It's like nowadays you can only look upon Muslims as angels or devils - they're either shining paragons of goodness who can do no wrong or the scum of the earth who are out to kill all non-Muslims and force Sharia law on everyone. It's like you can't even view them as just people like you and me. People in the West are fine with complaining about Princess Peach and Lara Croft, but often turn a blind eye to real things that actually do harm women such as honour killings and female genital mutilation because most such practices primarily affect women in third world countries. I've heard people equate criticising honour killings with Islamophobia even though most of the critics are not condemning Islam. That's the real problem - people are soft because they care too much about fighting injustice without understanding what issues are really important.

    I agree, there is a lot of ignorance out there, but it's just human nature. I acknowledge that some people aren't as smart as I am and just try to ignore them and not let the offensive bullshit that comes out of their mouths bother me. It's good to support marginalised groups, but you have to care about all people, regardless of what racial/ethnic/religious/etc. group they belong to. The problem is people can't walk away. For example, if you really think the Tomb Raider games are sexist, just don't buy them. No one's forcing you to. Spend your 50 dollars on another game that's more to your tastes.
     
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    Nah

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    Just wanna let everyone know that I went and took the posts/conversation about Sarkeesian and made it into its own thread, which you can find here. It was admittedly rather off-topic but there was enough to make it as its own discussion so....
     

    Desert Stream~

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    I think, in some ways yes, and in some ways no. People getting tougher has over time made other people softer IMO until we have 2 groups of people, the soft people, and the tough people.
     

    Hands

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    "Are we getting softer?"

    Go take a short visit to Tumblr, come back, and you tell me.
    Be careful though, you might offend someone and trigger their PTSD. >.>

    Because a minority of users on a relatively small image sharing site is heavily indicative of Western society on a whole.
     
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