Ash out of the show soon? (theory)

[weedle_mchairybug]

The supposed fan exodus that happened with Misty leaving also happened after Pokemon started losing it's "fad" status. And because I don't feel like typing a lot right now, these fans didn't so much leave because of the character but because they grew out of Pokemon.

And the beauty of Pokemon, assuming it stays successful, is it's key demographic (children 6-13) is constantly replenished. So those other guys can change out, because most of the fans who cared about previous seasons aren't even watching any more.

You know, this is kinda contradictory, as, if the Show REALLY was able to replenish lost fans with newbie fans, I doubt that AG or DP would be in the 5.5% ratings box in Japan. Instead, it would probably be in the 8.8% or highter (Since that was the ratings amount Johto was at. It's official, ask Nickstr or Anime News Network if you guys don't believe me.). So I don't buy the whole "outgrow" stage, since as you said, even IF the old fans outgrow it, the new kids will replace them in numbers, being close to the amount of, if not being at that exact percentage of, ratings revinue. The only explaination for having not only the original fanbase leave the show, but also not even coming close to replenishing the total of rating viewership of the Original Series IS the Misty fan exodus/replacement of the main characters. I mean, if replacing Misty (or Brock, even) caused a huge outcry in the world that's causing the ratings to plummit, then they are also essential characters as well.

But each season/series/saga has one thing: The central basis is Ash (and Pikachu and his Pokemon). The moment his journey ends, the show as we know it is over. This doesn't mean the show can't have an anime anymore, but it'd have to be built completely from the ground up. And because of the lack of success from Chronicles, it's unlikely any current or former cast could carry the show by themselves.

You know, people thought the exact same thing about Red. I mean, up until Yellow's introduction, he was also the central basis of the show. Heck, just like Ash, he also owned a Pikachu (which became more used than even his starter, Saur), and yet, they replaced him with Yellow (and replaced her with Gold, and then Ruby/Sapphire, then Red got a brief resurrection [before he, Green/Blue, Blue/Green, and Yellow turned into statues], was yet again replaced, this time with Emerald, then he was finally replaced with Diamond.). I mean, if the writers of PokeSpecial could replace the character THEY played up to be their absolute main character out of a whim, and NOT get their Manga in danger, who says the anime writers can't do same thing with Ash?

Oh, and I don't really believe Masamitsu Hidaka's word. I mean, ONE, he's been demoted from Director to just a Storyboard Artist after Season 9, two, he legitimately didn't even know that Platinum was coming out, despite, oh, it being the main focus of Corocoro, a focused upon development, and two Pokemon's forms being from said game (If he truly knew that there were going to be new generations of pokemon, he should have also known about Platinum being in development.), three, considering how he and the rest of the writing staff lied to 4kids about Ash's father appearing in Season 5 (remember that infamous statement in the third movie commentary?), I'd place a huge amount of doubt on his statements on the future of the Anime.

Even IF he was still the director, had absolute knowledge of what he was saying, and was honest, That still doesn't mean that his statement of the future is set in stone.

 

[The Ebon Blade]

I have to go with number 4 and 5...the others just fail epically!!!

lol i agree accept he wouldnt go home and cry he'd be like "I'm just gonna keep trying!" and blah blah blah

 

[Artemis]

lol i agree accept he wouldnt go home and cry he'd be like "I'm just gonna keep trying!" and blah blah blah

oh yeah he would...but hey that's good positive attitude, a lot of ppl need that these days...

 

[randomspot555]

You know, this is kinda contradictory, as, if the Show REALLY was able to replenish lost fans with newbie fans, I doubt that AG or DP would be in the 5.5% ratings box in Japan. Instead, it would probably be in the 8.8% or highter (Since that was the ratings amount Johto was at. It's official, ask Nickstr or Anime News Network if you guys don't believe me.). So I don't buy the whole "outgrow" stage, since as you said, even IF the old fans outgrow it, the new kids will replace them in numbers, being close to the amount of, if not being at that exact percentage of, ratings revinue. The only explaination for having not only the original fanbase leave the show, but also not even coming close to replenishing the total of rating viewership of the Original Series IS the Misty fan exodus/replacement of the main characters. I mean, if replacing Misty (or Brock, even) caused a huge outcry in the world that's causing the ratings to plummit, then they are also essential characters as well.

While I'm not intimately familiar with the success of the Pokemon franchise in Japan, I am familiar with it outside of Japan. I've always heard that the fad never really left Japan, hence why the movies are still shown in theaters and actually are financially profitable. And it did indeed start losing the fad status around the end of Gen 2 in North America. It went from being cool to being "lol nerd" thing. The games kept selling, but every other aspect of the franchise (anime, merch, movies) were being less and less successful. So you can't expect the fans to just replenish themselves from the anime because there are simply less people who care. I also read an article that the non-games part of the franchise were being horribly mismanaged during Gen III, though I can't find a link at the moment.

You know, people thought the exact same thing about Red. I mean, up until Yellow's introduction, he was also the central basis of the show. Heck, just like Ash, he also owned a Pikachu (which became more used than even his starter, Saur), and yet, they replaced him with Yellow (and replaced her with Gold, and then Ruby/Sapphire, then Red got a brief resurrection [before he, Green/Blue, Blue/Green, and Yellow turned into statues], was yet again replaced, this time with Emerald, then he was finally replaced with Diamond.). I mean, if the writers of PokeSpecial could replace the character THEY played up to be their absolute main character out of a whim, and NOT get their Manga in danger, who says the anime writers can't do same thing with Ash?

Manga is something much different than the anime. It's very much a more Japanese media and not very mainstream in North America. If it's translated to English at all, it's usually sold in specialty shops like comic book stores, and only a limited selection (if any) is found in chain book stores. Because of this, the demographic is more mature (teenage, rather than prebuscent demographic for the anime). Don't get me wrong, the manga isn't breaking any grounds for being edgy, but for POKEMON, it's pretty far out there.

The anime, however, is different. You can't expect children to follow extended plots that go over many years. The kind of plotting we're getting in D/P is probably the best we'll get (less COTD, more reoccuring characters), and even now, 99% of what happened 5 weeks ago isn't relevant to the new episode.

Oh, and I don't really believe Masamitsu Hidaka's word. I mean, ONE, he's been demoted from Director to just a Storyboard Artist after Season 9, two, he legitimately didn't even know that Platinum was coming out, despite, oh, it being the main focus of Corocoro, a focused upon development, and two Pokemon's forms being from said game (If he truly knew that there were going to be new generations of pokemon, he should have also known about Platinum being in development.), three, considering how he and the rest of the writing staff lied to 4kids about Ash's father appearing in Season 5 (remember that infamous statement in the third movie commentary?), I'd place a huge amount of doubt on his statements on the future of the Anime.

Even IF he was still the director, had absolute knowledge of what he was saying, and was honest, That still doesn't mean that his statement of the future is set in stone.

It doesn't make him the ultimate authority, but it doesn't discredit him either. He's the closest any English speaking fan has ever gotten to someone who actually is connected to any part of the production of the anime. Based on how the anime has played out so far, his interview didn't so much reveal a lot, rather than confirm a lot of reasonable suspicions (the role of the female cast member, GS Ball/Ash's father dropped plots, and so on).

As I posted on another forum, there are people smarter than you or I running the anime. If they thought, through any type of study or testing they inevitably do to keep track of fans and fads and whatnot, that bringing back Character X or Pokemon Y or Plot Z would net them some more $$, they'd have a plushie of Misty's Psyduck out tomorrow. But they don't. And personally, as someone who's observed several Internet outrages over various types of fiction, it rarely translates to real life fans being as outraged as the vocal minority on the Internet...that is, if they even care at all.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

While I'm not intimately familiar with the success of the Pokemon franchise in Japan, I am familiar with it outside of Japan. I've always heard that the fad never really left Japan, hence why the movies are still shown in theaters and actually are financially profitable. And it did indeed start losing the fad status around the end of Gen 2 in North America. It went from being cool to being "lol nerd" thing. The games kept selling, but every other aspect of the franchise (anime, merch, movies) were being less and less successful. So you can't expect the fans to just replenish themselves from the anime because there are simply less people who care. I also read an article that the non-games part of the franchise were being horribly mismanaged during Gen III, though I can't find a link at the moment.

That's my point. I mean, it's bad enough that America is suffering from this, but Japan's not doing much better, which was what I was referring to when I said it's getting low ratings in Japan [even lower than the supposed dud region, Johto, from what I've heard.]. I mean, according to Anime News Network, and Nickstr, by proxy, as he's the one who discovered this information, AG and DP got 5.5% ratings in japan, the lowest pokemon has ever gone (and according to that site, the worst Johto ever got was 8.8%). If it was truly able to replenish the fans who left the show, the Anime would still be at 8.8% overall by now, or at worst 8.6%, not at 5.5%, which is a significant decrease.

It doesn't make him the ultimate authority, but it doesn't discredit him either. He's the closest any English speaking fan has ever gotten to someone who actually is connected to any part of the production of the anime. Based on how the anime has played out so far, his interview didn't so much reveal a lot, rather than confirm a lot of reasonable suspicions (the role of the female cast member, GS Ball/Ash's father dropped plots, and so on).

And in that same interview, he pretty much admitted that he could change his mind about replacing characters with the revelation of why Brock left and then came back. I mean, if he had realized how Brock needed to return even if he didn't have to, what makes him think he can't bring back Misty?

Besides, that still doesn't explain why he had absolutely no idea as to Platinum even being developed despite it being the most talked about thing out there at the time, as well as certain alternate forms in that movie coming from Platinum?

As I posted on another forum, there are people smarter than you or I running the anime. If they thought, through any type of study or testing they inevitably do to keep track of fans and fads and whatnot, that bringing back Character X or Pokemon Y or Plot Z would net them some more $$, they'd have a plushie of Misty's Psyduck out tomorrow. But they don't. And personally, as someone who's observed several Internet outrages over various types of fiction, it rarely translates to real life fans being as outraged as the vocal minority on the Internet...that is, if they even care at all.

Hey, I know they didn't sell any Ho-Oh plushies or anything like that, despite it being a central focus of the Anime, so the whole "Only way Misty can come back is if one of her pokemon is a plushie" is not really going to cut it. Besides, when have the Brock fans actually been a Majority? Last time I checked, from what people said, he acually ranked the lowest of the characters on that poll at the time he was removed, yet despite the fact that the Brock fans are just as much of a majority as you claim internet fans to be, they were definitely allowing him to return. Heck, America in itself is a minority, both in terms of the worldwide fanbase as well as how people are saying that Japan only cares about it's own fanbase.

 

[randomspot555]

Besides, that still doesn't explain why he had absolutely no idea as to Platinum even being developed despite it being the most talked about thing out there at the time, as well as certain alternate forms in that movie coming from Platinum?

While obviously I can't speak for the artist, I'm sure Nintendo and Gamefreak don't want non-game developers talking about their products, especially to an American audience where officially, Nintendo of America had a stance of "There is no Pokemon Platinum" at the time of the Pokebeach interview.

Hey, I know they didn't sell any Ho-Oh plushies or anything like that, despite it being a central focus of the Anime, so the whole "Only way Misty can come back is if one of her pokemon is a plushie" is not really going to cut it. Besides, when have the Brock fans actually been a Majority? Last time I checked, from what people said, he acually ranked the lowest of the characters on that poll at the time he was removed, yet despite the fact that the Brock fans are just as much of a majority as you claim internet fans to be, they were definitely allowing him to return. Heck, America in itself is a minority, both in terms of the worldwide fanbase as well as how people are saying that Japan only cares about it's own fanbase.

Ho-Oh wasn't so much a focus as a big plot device (arguably, the entire anime is a Plot Device, but that's another topic for another thread). My point about Misty is that, while there might be fan demand for it, that fan demand isn't going to be printing any money for the products the anime serves to promote, the toys/merch/plushies and games.

And while Brock fans may not be a majority anywhere, Brock provides the show with bad attempts at romance, an "older brother" role and comedic relief. All of these are pretty essential to a kids' television show. Compare that to the saga-exclusive girl, and her role is usually something that is wrapped up by the end of the proper saga because it tends to be specific to that area.

 

[Jorah]

Depending on when you got the statistics, at Johto, the Pokemon anime could still have been riding off the popularity of the first series. I'm sure it's more complicated than "Misty's departure episode had 8.8% of viewers, the episode after had 5.5%". After the fad started by the first series, the anime was probably in a steady decline of viewers by around the end of Indigo League, probably before, but could have carried it along someway after that. Anyway, stats can never tell you the full story.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

You know, I was giving it some thought, and something occured to me.

What was the point in Ash taking Pikachu into Sinnoh?

I mean, it's losing to pokemon it should have dominated against now. It's even losing to Gym Leaders now.

Speaking of which, it isn't being used in many of the Gym battles, and on the rare occasions it does compete in them, it loses badly. I mean, it hasn't won a Gym Battle since... what, it's battle with Juan? I mean, the only reason why it could even possibly be there is just for the sake of being there, since I don't really see the point of it being there if it isn't winning any Gym Battles.

Before anyone mentions it's winning against Crasher Wake, the pokemon it won against (Gyarados) was not Wake's final pokemon, so it doesn't count.

I mean, seriously, what's the point of taking Pikachu into Sinnoh? I mean, it's rarely competing in Gym matches, and now is losing against them.

 

[Vernikova]

You know, I was giving it some thought, and something occured to me.

What was the point in Ash taking Pikachu into Sinnoh?

I mean, it's losing to pokemon it should have dominated against now. It's even losing to Gym Leaders now.

Speaking of which, it isn't being used in many of the Gym battles, and on the rare occasions it does compete in them, it loses badly. I mean, it hasn't won a Gym Battle since... what, it's battle with Juan? I mean, the only reason why it could even possibly be there is just for the sake of being there, since I don't really see the point of it being there if it isn't winning any Gym Battles.

Before anyone mentions it's winning against Crasher Wake, the pokemon it won against (Gyarados) was not Wake's final pokemon, so it doesn't count.

I mean, seriously, what's the point of taking Pikachu into Sinnoh? I mean, it's rarely competing in Gym matches, and now is losing against them.

Most people think that's a good thing. It doesn't have to be in everything and who cares if it keeps losing. It gives more spotlight to other pokémon.

How does Crasher Wake not count?

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Most people think that's a good thing. It doesn't have to be in everything and who cares if it keeps losing. It gives more spotlight to other pokémon.

Well, yeah, but considering how it won against Brandon, and besides which, soundly defeated his regice, it seems to be pointless for it to be losing NOW.

How does Crasher Wake not count?

Because, Gyarados isn't his final Pokemon. Usually, when people think of who won against a gym leader in regards to the Pokemon, it's the one who defeated the final Pokemon. So, while Pikachu did technically win against Gyarados, it wasn't the winner against Wake, as in order to truly win against wake, he has to beat his final pokemon (His Floatzel.).

 

[Vernikova]

Well, yeah, but considering how it won against Brandon, and besides which, soundly defeated his regice, it seems to be pointless for it to be losing NOW.

Wasn't its win kind of cheap though? I haven't watched that in a while I son I don't remember.

Because, Gyarados isn't his final Pokemon. Usually, when people think of who won against a gym leader in regards to the Pokemon, it's the one who defeated the final Pokemon. So, while Pikachu did technically win against Gyarados, it wasn't the winner against Wake, as in order to truly win against wake, he has to beat his final pokemon (His Floatzel.).

That's silly. The only thing Pikachu didn't do was beat his last pokémon. It's still a win.

 

[matt561]

Taking ash out of the anime would be like when JD goes from scrubs



A washout

 

[randomspot555]

You know, I was giving it some thought, and something occured to me.

What was the point in Ash taking Pikachu into Sinnoh?

Out-of-universe answer: It's the most recognizable face of the Pokemon franchise, with Ash arguably being the second most.

In-universe answer: The anime has consistently portrayed a strong bond that is formed between a trainer and his/her starter, usually making it onto a team no matter what.

I mean, it's losing to pokemon it should have dominated against now. It's even losing to Gym Leaders now.

Levels are not fixed in the anime as they are in the games, so they can fluctuate. At times, Pikachu has also been overconfident and that can work against him. And arguably, every time the anime takes a break Pikachu isn't training much, so it needs to re-train.

But this is a good thing, not bad. Because it allows Ash to not just wipe the floor in every new area. Otherwise, it'd be boring to watch Pikachu OHKO every Pokemon in it's path.

Speaking of which, it isn't being used in many of the Gym battles, and on the rare occasions it does compete in them, it loses badly. I mean, it hasn't won a Gym Battle since... what, it's battle with Juan? I mean, the only reason why it could even possibly be there is just for the sake of being there, since I don't really see the point of it being there if it isn't winning any Gym Battles.

This is also a good thing, because it gives the chance for other Pokemon to shine.

Man, you anime whiners complain about everything. First it's too much Pikachu, now it's not enough Pikachu.

Before anyone mentions it's winning against Crasher Wake, the pokemon it won against (Gyarados) was not Wake's final pokemon, so it doesn't count.

Yes it does. I'm fairly certain the judge said "Gyarados is unable to battle, Pikachu is the winner." as they do whenever one goes down and the other stays in battle. Just because it didn't win the entire gym challenge by itself doesn't discount the win against Gyarados.

Taking ash out of the anime would be like when JD goes from scrubs

While they are drastically different shows, this does have some truth to it. Both shows are from their respective character's perspective and focus on their story/journey the most. Taking either out of the show means it has to completely re-invent itself as far as the perspective of episodes go.

 

[spike6958]

If Ash left and they replaced him with Dawn as the main character i would stop watching, Dawn and Contest battles don't have enough appeal to me to hold my interest, and if there going to change to another trainer, they might as well stick with Ash as changing to another character will not help improve the story, so the change would just be pointless.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Out-of-universe answer: It's the most recognizable face of the Pokemon franchise, with Ash arguably being the second most.

In-universe answer: The anime has consistently portrayed a strong bond that is formed between a trainer and his/her starter, usually making it onto a team no matter what.

True, but even still... sometimes it's not always the case. In fact, I know that Misty seems to care a lot about her Gyarados, even though it never was her starter (well, in the anime, I mean.). Besides, Otoshi had a bigger bond with his Marowak, and yet, strongest pokemon or not, unless he was a gym leader, or related to one, at the very least, there is no way his Marowak would even be his starter.

Levels are not fixed in the anime as they are in the games, so they can fluctuate. At times, Pikachu has also been overconfident and that can work against him. And arguably, every time the anime takes a break Pikachu isn't training much, so it needs to re-train.

Well, yeah, Level's may not be fixed, but that doesn't mean it should almost revert back to level one. I mean, We can give it some difficulty, but it shouldn't be to the extent where it seems like it's just starting out.

But this is a good thing, not bad. Because it allows Ash to not just wipe the floor in every new area. Otherwise, it'd be boring to watch Pikachu OHKO every Pokemon in it's path.

I thought most of the Hoenn Battles had that (And I don't just mean with Pikachu, literally every pokemon, despite their complete inexperience, was somehow able to toss away 3/4ths of the gym leader's pokemon teams with little to no effort.), then again, one of the reasons why I hated the AG saga was the writers insistance that they make almost every Gym Leader basically lose to rookie pokemon in a similar fashion to how Jessie, James, and Meowth lose.

Besides, while it may be boring, at least it's true to it's potential if it OHKO's the Pokemon.

This is also a good thing, because it gives the chance for other Pokemon to shine.

Man, you anime whiners complain about everything. First it's too much Pikachu, now it's not enough Pikachu.

Hey, I wouldn't mind Pikachu not getting the spotlight as long as it at least shows it's full potential, and not make the entire BF seem like a total waste of episode writing by having it lose against pokemon/trainers it should have been able to beat.

Yes it does. I'm fairly certain the judge said "Gyarados is unable to battle, Pikachu is the winner." as they do whenever one goes down and the other stays in battle. Just because it didn't win the entire gym challenge by itself doesn't discount the win against Gyarados.

Do you honestly think I would think it needed to beat the entire gym challenge by itself?! No, I just want it to beat the Last Gym leader if possible (especially since, according to the laws of Gym battling, the one who wins the match is the one who beats the final pokemon on the Gym Leader's roster.), if I ever needed him to beat all the Gym Leader's pokemon by itself, It would only be for brownie points, in other words, just bonus points that aren't truly necessary.

While they are drastically different shows, this does have some truth to it. Both shows are from their respective character's perspective and focus on their story/journey the most. Taking either out of the show means it has to completely re-invent itself as far as the perspective of episodes go.

 

[The Ebon Blade]

Taking ash out of the anime would be like when JD goes from scrubs



A washout

I'd kill someone if JD leaves scrubs. But it isn't the same issue. However, in this argument, it has pretty much been determines that Ash won't be leaving. It was just a theory.

 

["Shadow Lugia"]

I'd kill someone if JD leaves scrubs. But it isn't the same issue. However, in this argument, it has pretty much been determines that Ash won't be leaving. It was just a theory.

I've now heard Chalke say this will be the final season of Scrubs.

Anyway, as to the two seperate theories:

-The theory that Ash is leaving seems possible, but on the other hand, as said before, Pikachu is Pokemon's mascot, so Pikachu leaving seems unlikely.
In addition, the Anime has been around for a very long time, and Ash, Pikachu, and Team Rocket are the only characters that have always been there (not counting Chronicles). I think if they were going to replace Ash, they would've done it by now.

-As to the idea of the Anime ending soon, I doubt this, too. It's the sole reason so many (myself included) ever bought the games. Remember that the original plan was that the anime would only be one season. It was so sucessful, however, that they decided to continue it. I think that they would only finish the anime if Nintendo stopped making Pokemon games. And due to some hints for Gen 5 (notched-ear Pichu), that probably won't be anytime soon.

 

[solarstar]

As much as I would like the anime to follow the games exactly such as changing the main character in each gen. I seriously doubt that's going to happen.

 

[Shen]

What about us who stopped watching the show because of Ash? He's a useless waste of space with absolutely no character and charisma at all. If they got rid of Mr. Plot-Device, I wouldn't mind them keeping the rat.
What they should do is start another series while the current one is going. If they wanted to be clever, they'd have it set after Ash's journey where the new hero/heroine is travelling with Ketchup as their idol. Also have Brock (best character in the series) tagging along with Pikachu (to keep the fans) and see how well that does. Then Ash's journey can end safely or continue depending on how well the other series does.
If the 5th gen is announced before Ash goes too far into Sinnoh, then the new series could start and Ash could stumble his way through the Battle Park of Sinnoh for extra time.

In the end, can Shirona-chan destroy him or something? Let Garchomp go crazy on his pathetic rear end. Or maybe have Spiritomb somehow possess him and make him throttle himself. I'd watch that.

 

[ArcanineOod]

Forgive me lack of creativity here, but... Isn't the show centered around Ash? I mean, it's his journey we're following.
I'm hoping Dawn won't leave at the end of the series, and that Brock will never leave again... But that may just be wishful thinking. However, Misty was there for so long, and Dawn is such a popular character, maybe they'll let her stay for a bit longer.

Getting back to Ash... I just can't see him leaving without the series finishing.
^_^
xX