Fanfiction Lounge

[Bay]

Reading Astinus's post makes me want to not post my FF character.

Why not? From what I can understand, her post is basically about the few people here who hangs around here too much to chit-chat and not help out the other people in the writing community that asks a question here or needs a good review. I admit, I'm guilty of this too. I spend my free time here (though not as much as before) when I could have helped a writer or two. >.>;

But yeah, if you need help with your FF character or your story overall, at least I'll help you. :) Just remind me in PM/VM so that I don't forget because with uni and work I tend to lost track of what reviews I owe. XD BUT ANYWAYS, POST IT, DANG IT!

First off, exactly and thank you.

Second off, I've got a few ideas.

One of these strategies is to close the FFL for awhile. Obviously, it's what might be causing part of the problem because people get so focused on only it that they forget an entire forum exists. Hence, you could try experimenting by leaving it closed for awhile. I was thinking a week might do it, but in order to get people to keep checking the forum, you'd probably need to make it a random time that's longer than a day or two. This forces people to take their private discussions (i.e., "craziness") to VMs or the DCC while giving people a reason to go look at something else for awhile. A result of this may be chasing most of the FFL regulars to the DCC or a similar thread (or even cause them to try to create a new FFL), but that's just a worst-case scenario. A more favorable result, hopefully, is that the FFL kids will get bored and end up on the main forum. I'm of course not saying you should close it forever. I'm just saying close it to give people more of a reason to stop hanging around the same place forever.

Sounds like a good idea. And actually, a few of us were in the DCC before and it tends to be fun there time to time. The only thing I'm worried about is there will be separate conversations between the FFL regulars there and the DCC regulars if that were to happen. Then again, DCC is more welcoming of new people joining in the conversation and the couple FFL regulars that visted the DCC joined in the conversations fine for the most part.

1. The reviewer's guide needs to be consolidated and clarified. (Including a note that says a paragraph is okay as a review as long as it points out something specific about the fic.) The main points just need to be emphasized, and it needs to be clarified that a reviewer's job isn't to be funny or snarky.

Agree to that. Maybe what scares some reviewers is they would have to write a one page review and have to put a lot of effort on it(oh gawds, brings me back when I had to review for a one shot contest at Serebii XD; ). I guess the main thing is that a review doesn't have to be spectular or with too much indepth analysis. A few mentions of your favroite scenes or what scenes needs work and a bit of advice should work, I believe.

2. We need to have either an incentive for reviewing or a connection between writers and reviewers. This tends to be more of a problem because there's only so much you can do without knowing how the community will react to it (i.e., ignore it or otherwise). I've considered a few possibilities, including:

- Emblems that are handed out to quality reviewers. There's one for writers, after all.

- A NaReWriMo (basically, NaNoWriMo for reviews) challenge. Maybe one that involves prizes such as emblems for participation. (I'm not sure what level of security you need in order to create emblems, so if it's out of the question, we can toss around other ideas for incentives. A banner to put in your signature to say you won the challenge, for example.)

- A more open reviewer request thread. As in, the review exchange failed. I admit that, and I see it's because we didn't really have that many active writers in the FFL at the time. Hence, I'm thinking maybe there might be a place (maybe an entire usergroup to give people space to create profile threads where people can request reviews) where writers can come along, read a profile, and send requests to people they want to get to review their fic. Most people like talking about themselves (so a profile thread might be appealing), and I doubt many people will be able to resist a review request if the writer keeps pestering them about whether or not the review is getting done.

OH, I CAN HAZ AM EMBLEM! I DOES GREAT REVIEWS! *gets shot *

In all seriousness though, maybe emblems will work. Honestly, writers wouldn't be able to be decent without good reviewers helping them, so reviewers should be appericated more.

As for the NaReWriMo part, hm we discussed the challenge thing before and it flopped. However, I guess for this it might work as this will go for quanity and not quality, but only problem is I'm afraid some people might just copy and past their review or their reviews are basically telling or or less so the same (like Yami Ryu at Serebii).

As for the review request thread thing, I think this could work more better than Serebii, actually. There seems to be a lot of people needing reviews here more than at Serebii, so I think we should give this a shot.

Seriously, though, this is exactly my point. It's all for teh lulz, I'm sure, but you guys just have to remember that this is a writing community. As such, the FFL isn't meant to stand alone as the home for one tiny group of people who don't do much in the main forum. (There's a couple of you who do, and more power to you for getting it. Seriously. However, I'm referring to the kids who actually don't do anything outside of the FFL and maybe their own fic threads.) It's meant to be a writing community. You know, a place for writers -- those people who post in threads in the main forum and those people who review threads and need help with creating their fics -- to come in and ask those little questions that wouldn't cover an entire thread by themselves. (Like "Hey, does anyone know what the word is for X concept?" or "Hey, how's this for a fic idea? Too cliche?")

Or, alternatively, you could try a usergroup. Or a private board of your own. Or the DCC/a more appropriate thread for that. Because, seriously, it's entirely possible to get a group of kids to migrate.

Ten bucks says they'll switch going in your forum and take it over for a while (actually, they might have already). D: Not trying to offend you guys here or anything , considering I would be a hypocrite if I were. >.>; Seriously though, I love you guys and I enjoy the fun conversations we have here/through chats and VMs, but this is kind of bothering me now too in that it seems we, including myself, haven't welcome a new member yet.

But yeah, realizing now how bad this is getting, something must be done this time to get this part of the forum back in shape like it used to be. We have been talking about this over and over, but nothing has been done, as Astinus mentioned.

 

[JX Valentine]

Agree to that. Maybe what scares some reviewers is they would have to write a one page review and have to put a lot of effort on it(oh gawds, brings me back when I had to review for a one shot contest at Serebii XD; ). I guess the main thing is that a review doesn't have to be spectular or with too much indepth analysis. A few mentions of your favroite scenes or what scenes needs work and a bit of advice should work, I believe.

Yep. It's totally kosher if you can only write a paragraph that covers exactly that. All you have to do is give the writer some sign that you actually read the fic by pointing something out instead of just leaving it at, "omg this is such an interesting concept! I can't wait for more!" Because, you know, the story could have been about dog filth, and that review could have still applied. *kashrug*

However, if you said that was an interesting story about dog filth and you really thought it's impressive how the writer managed to give dog filth a personality in its struggle against the shovel, that actually shows you were paying some kind of attention. And no snark intended at all in this entire paragraph.

As for the NaReWriMo part, hm we discussed the challenge thing before and it flopped. However, I guess for this it might work as this will go for quanity and not quality, but only problem is I'm afraid some people might just copy and past their review or their reviews are basically telling or or less so the same (like Yami Ryu at Serebii).

That's a good point. Likewise, because some people might be trying to pump out bunches of reviews at once, there might be some kids who decide not to restrain themselves in the tact department. So, maybe not a NaReWriMo.

Maybe, though, we can have a thread that has a running tally of how many (non-generic, non-one-liner, non-copypasta'd) reviews you've submitted, with X number of reviews being the key to getting a shiny emblem/prize?

Speaking about quality, I had another idea after thinking about what MW said. Clearly, feedback from other reviewers tends to be a problem, too. What about a thread that reviews reviewing style? As in, a place where reviewers can submit samples for other people to discuss and help refine. That way, we don't have kids scaring people away from reviewing, and Jax won't have to smack people on the backs of their heads for ripping apart fics without actually doing any research into what they're talking about (which has happened far more times than I care to mention). It'd be a helpful discussion, basically, for people to trade tips on reviewing and whatnot.

Because, yeah, you're right. Reviewers don't really get too much appreciation, and we don't really seem to talk as much about the reviewing process as we do about the writing one.

As for the review request thread thing, I think this could work more better than Serebii, actually. There seems to be a lot of people needing reviews here more than at Serebii, so I think we should give this a shot.

Awesome. Would it work better as one sticky in Writer's Lounge a la Serebii or a usergroup with everyone getting their own request threads? Moreover, who should set it up?

Ten bucks says they'll switch going in your forum and take it over for a while (actually, they might have already). D:

I assure you. I've promised that if a clique happens on the BBS, I'm kicking someone's ass.

But yeah, realizing now how bad this is getting, something must be done this time to get this part of the forum back in shape like it used to be. We have been talking about this over and over, but nothing has been done, as Astinus mentioned.

Oh, don't worry. That's why I came back. Because, clearly, I'm an egotist who thinks she can kick your tails into shaping up. It's only the first day, so I can't really say there's solid plans here (especially since I'm not even going to start pretending I have the shiny mod stick), but I can at least outline what's plausible to be done and twist people's arms into doing it. Egotism aside, though, if anyone else can come up with anything to add (because everything that I've been able to come up with for a plan so far has already been mentioned... and I'm definitely actually working on it, I promise), feel free to throw something in but keep in mind that if you mention it, I'll most likely try to cram it in.

Moreover, if you volunteer to do any of the above, I'm probably going to be on your ass until it gets done, especially if I find you posting in this thread when you can be working. No more of this "oh, we've got plans, but we're not going to execute them" crap. If you want a better forum with a more open atmosphere where it feels like you're actually doing something to help your fellow forum-goers and where you're not just sitting around and talking about the same things over and over again and where it's actually possible to do things like the awards, we're going to get to work. Sound good?

 

[Astinus]

Reading Astinus's post makes me want to not post my FF character.

But that's what this thread is for. To combine all the "Here's my character, what do you think?" threads. It's just that I wouldn't suggest it now because the unfortunate side of things is that this thread moved too fast that what you needed help on would have been buried in other conversations.

So you can still post your character. Just, for right now, in a separate thread so that it doesn't get brushed aside from everything else.

I do think I was a bit more blunt last night, but I'm going through a terrible time right now. I'll try not to bring it into this.

One of these strategies is to close the FFL for awhile. Obviously, it's what might be causing part of the problem because people get so focused on only it that they forget an entire forum exists. Hence, you could try experimenting by leaving it closed for awhile. I was thinking a week might do it, but in order to get people to keep checking the forum, you'd probably need to make it a random time that's longer than a day or two.

I thought of doing that earlier today, but previous experience told me that closing the thread just causes the section to keel over and die. I'm thinking that if there's just a bit more of a tighter grasp of the rules for this section (for example: relate things to fanfiction) then the thread could remain open and thing can continue as if we're in My Little Pony Land. (Or Car Land. Or Pot Land.)

1. The reviewer's guide needs to be consolidated and clarified. (Including a note that says a paragraph is okay as a review as long as it points out something specific about the fic.) The main points just need to be emphasized, and it needs to be clarified that a reviewer's job isn't to be funny or snarky.

Actually, I'm not even looking for a paragraph for reviews to fit the rules. Just as long as it's not the same "I like this! Write more!" review that can be pasted into any sort and make sense, it fits the rules. For the examples, you'll just have to excuse me using my own fics for this.

Good: I like your description of Ilex Forest when Aden woke up. Hope to see more writing like that!
Bad: I like this chapter. More please!

That's it.

Damn it, Jax and Bay pretty much said everything else I could say. So if I tend to gloss over things, they already said it better than I could.

(I'm not sure what level of security you need in order to create emblems, so if it's out of the question, we can toss around other ideas for incentives. A banner to put in your signature to say you won the challenge, for example.)

For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.

So, yes, we're going to have to figure out a way to get the FFL to actually participate. Don't get me wrong. I understand that people are busy, but with all the time a lot of people spend in the FFL, you could be doing something like making friends with some of those writers out there and actually opening up the community as a whole. Devote your time to reaching out and helping everyone else instead of spamming a single thread, basically.

That's exactly what I meant with the idea that this thread dominated this section. People would gravitate here first because it was easier to read through the pages of the conversations here than it was to find a fic, read it, and review.

Heck, the Beta Thread is slowly going. I just told someone today to find a beta, and I'm not sure if there is one around here.

However, if you said that was an interesting story about dog filth and you really thought it's impressive how the writer managed to give dog filth a personality in its struggle against the shovel

Plot bunny.

What about a thread that reviews reviewing style? As in, a place where reviewers can submit samples for other people to discuss and help refine.

A resounding YES to this. There have been times when I had to correct people who reviewed because it was just way too confusing for the author to figure out, or the wrong information was given. So basic guidelines for reviewing should be said somewhere (do your research, take your time, proof-read), and then there's the review reviewing thread, where people can go and learn how to review in a helpful, good manner. That way, writers can come here and get reviews to help them improve. Not LARGE-SIZED CAPSLOCK BLINDING YELLOW I AM GOD reviews.

I'm happy with anything just as long as something gets done. Sure, it seems like I'm squashing people's fun, but I do that enough at my real job. I just want to see a section I love get the attention it deserves.

 

[Giratina ♀]

Yeah. Since I haven't been in here when the conversation started, I think I may just need to make little points on whatever tangents the rest of you all have gone off to. |D

I think that we do need a usergroup for "writers goofing off" and this thread be returned to its original purpose, "writers helping writers with writing". (If that wasn't the original purpose after all, please excuse me and my lateness...) We would be able to organize things a lot easier and still retain the goofiness that emnates from this thread, but it does seem to dominate over most places. I can name plenty of writers who haven't even set foot in this thread - it may be because they've told themselves that they don't need any help with their fanfics, but I think it also may involve the fact that we, as the main question thread, seem to be such a tight-knit group that any newcomers might just be shunned. And I hate to say it, but we sort of have shown that tendency on more than one occasion.

I really hate to make this sound like one of those horrible persuasive essays I (or some of you) had to write in middle school, but like Astinus pointed out, we have been pretty lax on the rules in favor of goofing off. However, even if we do have a separate thread or usergroup for people goofing off, it might still make the whole dead forum situation worse. So unless we can all find a way to magically strike the balance between discussion and serious-business Writing Talk, I don't know what to do on that count.

...As a sub-note, we need moar bold topics. When was the last time we had one of those?

For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.

If my computer is still alive by the time this comes to fruition (VIRUSES!! /raeg) then I believe I can help with that.

Sure, it seems like I'm squashing people's fun,

Personally, I think we all need to apply some pressure on our fun if the section is going to make it through the year. So yes, this is a very good discussion...

And now that the awards have been mentioned: I don't know if they're really going to fly. I mean, yes, they're going just peachy on Serebii, but I think that's because every writer and reviewer sort of lives inside their own thread and pokes at the Authors' Café every so often - there's none of the familiarity we here at PokéCom harbor. Plus, it's got a lot more members, so not everyone voting is as likely to know the writer - or be the writer - of a fic they're nominated for. So to be honest, I like the idea, but right now the community really isn't fit for it.

1. The reviewer's guide needs to be consolidated and clarified. (Including a note that says a paragraph is okay as a review as long as it points out something specific about the fic.) The main points just need to be emphasized, and it needs to be clarified that a reviewer's job isn't to be funny or snarky.

Urk. Who would want to be snarky in a review? Knowing the average amount of spine that most writers have? Just saying...

And now that we have thaaat subject up, do you all think we ought to move the Reviewing Guide (back?) to the main forum? I mean, it's not like the reviewers either A. enter the Writers' Lounge if they don't write or B. look past the FFL if they do.

There's one for writers, after all.

Is there really? /didn't know about this

...says the lost thirteen-year-old who came somewhat late. |D

 

[Miz en Scène]

I can't believe four people posted while I was formulating my response. I had to change to accommodate.

Solutions have been tossed around. Solutions have been tried and all were met with failure. Just to get reviews to authors. There's always the "review me, I'll review you" saying, but that doesn't work when there's nothing recent to review. And the reviews have to be good. You all said that something needed to be done for those quick one-liner "i lyk this" reviews. So I put the rule in, to make it official, link to a guide to help people figure out what constitutes a review for this section, and...nothing. I get the time to look around this section better than I could, and I see one-liner reviews going around and no reports for these reviews which are against the rules. Those people who used to review that well have left because of what this thread has done to this section.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm getting tired of people saying that there are problems but either not letting a person in charge know, or offering/doing anything about them. I mean, yes, there are problems. But hey, maybe if there's some actual effort tossed into things, this section would actually be a section instead of a thread.

I'm just interjecting here for a brief moment, but I actually remembered why I advocated the FFOTY contest and the nomination/voting thing. My original plan, before I lost track due to the fact that I was all over the place planning with everyone else was for the FFOTY's nomination part to be a venue where nominated fics(i.e. the good ones that deserve it) should be reviewed before being voted on. I admit that with everything else going on I kind of forgot that crucial detail and the fact that it doesn't help those new, struggling writers (which incidentally, I've occasionally reviewed and have taken up a position in the beta-thread for that reason). My point here is that this is what the FFOTY was supposed to be about. The recognition and review of good fics, that have been read by one person, but have been ignored by the general community.

For the matter of reviewing beginner fics, I find that the most fun, and or challenging to review since there's something satisfying about pointing out mistakes even though you know that you make plenty of those same mistakes. In the process, you learn more about writing too.

There seems to be some sort of nostalgia going around. A missing of the old days. And even though I have major difficulties forming emotional attachment to anything, I still have to admit that I miss the way the section used to be. The Lounge was a place for the writers/readers to relax as they took breaks from reviewing. But now, there's very few reviewers, and so people aren't posting their works, which makes this section look terribly dead.

Yes, but those who used to be avid reviewers now have other responsibilities(like you and your job) and those people who have just joined aren't confident enough to review because they feel they might make a fool out of themselves. At least, that's how I think it is… I can attest to the fact that the section looks dead. Our FF community isn't as established as Serebii's(I would post my fics there if it weren't for the fact that every time I visit the site, it's excruciatingly slow even with my connection.) for some reason or another, and maybe we really need to bring in fresh talent or maybe encourage budding talent here on PC.

And the bold topics. Sorry, Mizan, but I remember that bold topic clearly, and that means that it appeared in the past month. Solovino took the time to go through the thread and write up the bold topic list, but it makes no difference. Yes, if there's no bold topic and no randomness allowed, then the Lounge seems dead. But that's okay. The Lounge can not have a new post for days. And who knows, maybe that means that the people who can't post because they have no idea what's going on in this thread can join in and bring some new sort of discussion and ideas here.

Yes, but I have a crappy memory and the BTI hasn't been updated in three months(Sol's obviously busy so I'm not blaming him of course. ;D) so I really wasn't sure if we had had that topic before. To be honest, it really was meant as an attempt to drag the FFL back to regular writing and reviewing type discussions because I really saw sense it what Jax was saying.
Also, to me the main pattern which happens when someone new joins the FFL and is too scared(or isn't bothered enough) to strongly impose their presence(either by following the flow or challenging norms) then what we have is at least one or two members saying 'Hi' and or responding and the rest ignoring that single person. After a while, maybe because said writer feels ignored or something or maybe because he feels as though he can't really join in the lounge, they leave…

How're the awards going to work if no one is out there reading the stories posted? I'll say right now that I really and honestly don't have the time to review like I used to back when I was feared throughout another forum. And maybe others are the same. But for those that have the time, try a little? A small bit of effort that follows the rules and guidelines that are nicely pointed out to you?

Look, this section is for fanfiction writing. Wanna talk games/books/anything else? There's a whole wide forum out there that has sections for each one of those. This forum was created for writing stories, posting them, and getting reviews, and getting advice needed for any part of that. But right now? Honestly, I wouldn't ask here for help needed for my fanfics, and that's saying something.

Right now, I'm just really not happy with anyone. I've been tempted many times to close this thread so that its domination could end, but I've never done it because I've always had the belief that people could change this on your own. All I'm asking is that Fanfiction & Writing becomes a section again and not one single thread of the same people posting so quickly people are scared away.

Like I stated earlier, the awards were initially conceived as a way to get people to read good fiction rather than award fiction for being good. I just lost my heading along the way and forgot to mention it. Or did I?

I haven't reviewed for a while, exactly because my reviews started to turn into snark (or so I'm told.) Basically, I'm a sulky little kid who decided not to do something because he got snapped at for doing it wrong. Yeah, sue me.

The last review I did, in particular, immediately got slammed by other reviewers of the fic in question as being unnecessarily rude and sarcastic, so I deleted it and haven't reviewed a single fanfic since.

This is exactly what I'm saying… Some reviewers (sorry MW; best example in a short space of time) just don't do it because they feel that they might be doing something wrong or they're scared of making the same mistake twice. Again, no offense MW.

One of these strategies is to close the FFL for awhile. Obviously, it's what might be causing part of the problem because people get so focused on only it that they forget an entire forum exists. Hence, you could try experimenting by leaving it closed for awhile. I was thinking a week might do it, but in order to get people to keep checking the forum, you'd probably need to make it a random time that's longer than a day or two. This forces people to take their private discussions (i.e., "craziness") to VMs or the DCC while giving people a reason to go look at something else for awhile. A result of this may be chasing most of the FFL regulars to the DCC or a similar thread (or even cause them to try to create a new FFL), but that's just a worst-case scenario. A more favorable result, hopefully, is that the FFL kids will get bored and end up on the main forum. I'm of course not saying you should close it forever. I'm just saying close it to give people more of a reason to stop hanging around the same place forever.

Personally, I don't know about you guys, but the FFL does not suck up all of my time and it doesn't deviate me from writing or reviewing(in contrast to what I might have said while I was joking around earlier.). Rather, as you may or may not know, I'm a --sort off—busy person who lurks around PC while doing some form of work which means that most of the times I don't have time to write long, winded replies to certain statements. I don't post in the main forum as much as I should because, as stated, I'm busy and the only place where I can post a statement measuring at least six lines max without breaking a reviewing rule is the FFL. My outlook is that if I really want to review someone, I set aside some time to do a quality review rather than conjure one up on the spot where it may or may not be of any quality at all.
Anyway, like I said, I don't know why you guys don't review as much as you should(though I'm one to talk), but I think that if hat Jax said is true, we might move the FFL to the Main section so that fics and the FFL aren't separated by a subforum.

"I'm here to help writers" line as a mantra. Think of puppies or something.

Or you know, take joy in maintaining a neutral stance while correcting people and improving your own writing at the same time. At least, that's what I do. Honestly, I don't think about 'helping writer's' when I review(thought that is a reason although I don't think about it often). I think about the joys of maintaining a neutral stance while getting to point out mistakes. Humans just love finding fault in others whether subconsciously or consciously so take that to your advantage and remember that every review eases you slowly into the community. (This is aimed at everybody btw.)

Point is, if people miss the point of the guide, it clearly needs to be rewritten. (And I'm working on it in the spare moments I have, I assure you.) And then it needs to be shoved as far down the regulars' throats as possible before they're sent out. If we establish a standard for reviewing, people will try to conform to it. For example, Mizan's early reviews seemed to mirror my betaing, so it's clear to me that if you get a handful of regulars all reviewing in their own version of quality (that isn't littered with errors -- because research is godly, kids -- or full of snark), people will follow your example. Heck, for an off-site example, people emulated Yami Ryu on Serebii all the time, just because she was such a prominent reviewer. This is why there was a lot of drama, but the point is, if you give a mouse a good reviewer, the mouse will want to review the same way.

I don't get the mouse analogy, and I don't really care since it's not relevant, but yes, this is what should be done. Though I'm not sure how you're going to get people to read the guide seeing as some(and I refer to the writer's community on PC; you know who you are) have barely even read the rules to begin with. The best idea I can think of is to PM them to read it or something along those lines.

2. We need to have either an incentive for reviewing or a connection between writers and reviewers. This tends to be more of a problem because there's only so much you can do without knowing how the community will react to it (i.e., ignore it or otherwise). I've considered a few possibilities, including:

- Emblems that are handed out to quality reviewers. There's one for writers, after all.

- A NaReWriMo (basically, NaNoWriMo for reviews) challenge. Maybe one that involves prizes such as emblems for participation. (I'm not sure what level of security you need in order to create emblems, so if it's out of the question, we can toss around other ideas for incentives. A banner to put in your signature to say you won the challenge, for example.)

- A more open reviewer request thread. As in, the review exchange failed. I admit that, and I see it's because we didn't really have that many active writers in the FFL at the time. Hence, I'm thinking maybe there might be a place (maybe an entire usergroup to give people space to create profile threads where people can request reviews) where writers can come along, read a profile, and send requests to people they want to get to review their fic. Most people like talking about themselves (so a profile thread might be appealing), and I doubt many people will be able to resist a review request if the writer keeps pestering them about whether or not the review is getting done.

-I always assumed that the Writer's emblem was given out for a healthy amount of writing and reviewing. Something I've been aiming for with my current reviews.
-To a certain extent, you can judge how people react based on the current analysis of the community. My guess is that when emblems are thrown out into the crowd, they lose thei value pretty quickly. Also, a banner would sometimes prove to be ineffective since not many people like modifying their sigs for something that trvial. Also, it's kind of hard to judge reviews since their even more varied than writing.
-You mean kind of like the beta-thread, but more open and more of requesting feedback rather than asking for help?

Maybe, though, we can have a thread that has a running tally of how many (non-generic, non-one-liner, non-copypasta'd) reviews you've submitted, with X number of reviews being the key to getting a shiny emblem/prize?

I'm pretty sure Digi-kun has this kind of thing over at the JE section. ;D Just saying…

things over and over again and where it's actually possible to do things like the awards, we're going to get to work. Sound good?

Ah, but I am working on the awards…

For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.

Do we get the service to the community emblem for this? XD

Yeah, I think I might be able to knock something up. Possibly...

 

[Buoysel]

For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.

If any ideas come to mind, let me know.

Astinus, I agree.

My only complaint is that you should have said something sooner. I'm not trying to be a suck up or anything, but how are we supposed to know we are going too far off topic if no one tells us?

 

[Bay]

Haha, I keep checking back and forth in this thread and see you guys replying befrore me. D:

Maybe, though, we can have a thread that has a running tally of how many (non-generic, non-one-liner, non-copypasta'd) reviews you've submitted, with X number of reviews being the key to getting a shiny emblem/prize?

Hm, the only thing is that might take up too much work and time. You would have to read though a lot of reviews AND keep track of that member's review posts. Understandable that it'll require time and effort to get this place filled with some decent reviews again, but I'm thinking along the lines of something that won't be as tedious as that.

Speaking about quality, I had another idea after thinking about what MW said. Clearly, feedback from other reviewers tends to be a problem, too. What about a thread that reviews reviewing style? As in, a place where reviewers can submit samples for other people to discuss and help refine. That way, we don't have kids scaring people away from reviewing, and Jax won't have to smack people on the backs of their heads for ripping apart fics without actually doing any research into what they're talking about (which has happened far more times than I care to mention). It'd be a helpful discussion, basically, for people to trade tips on reviewing and whatnot.

I also say yes to that. :)

Awesome. Would it work better as one sticky in Writer's Lounge a la Serebii or a usergroup with everyone getting their own request threads? Moreover, who should set it up?

Usergroups in PC tends to die…fast. D: However, sticky should be fine.

Oh, don't worry. That's why I came back. Because, clearly, I'm an egotist who thinks she can kick your tails into shaping up. It's only the first day, so I can't really say there's solid plans here (especially since I'm not even going to start pretending I have the shiny mod stick), but I can at least outline what's plausible to be done and twist people's arms into doing it. Egotism aside, though, if anyone else can come up with anything to add (because everything that I've been able to come up with for a plan so far has already been mentioned... and I'm definitely actually working on it, I promise), feel free to throw something in but keep in mind that if you mention it, I'll most likely try to cram it in.

Moreover, if you volunteer to do any of the above, I'm probably going to be on your ass until it gets done, especially if I find you posting in this thread when you can be working. No more of this "oh, we've got plans, but we're not going to execute them" crap. If you want a better forum with a more open atmosphere where it feels like you're actually doing something to help your fellow forum-goers and where you're not just sitting around and talking about the same things over and over again and where it's actually possible to do things like the awards, we're going to get to work. Sound good?

Yeah, sounds good. Hm, if I can come up with any ideas on how to shape up this community, I'll get your guys ophinon on this (that is, if anybody here is up to the challenge THIS TIME) and get to work on it.

For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.

I have GIMP, so I can just modify the pic's size and such in a snap. Hm, any picture in mind?

I think that we do need a usergroup for "writers goofing off" and this thread be returned to its original purpose, "writers helping writers with writing". (If that wasn't the original purpose after all, please excuse me and my lateness...) We would be able to organize things a lot easier and still retain the goofiness that emnates from this thread, but it does seem to dominate over most places. I can name plenty of writers who haven't even set foot in this thread - it may be because they've told themselves that they don't need any help with their fanfics, but I think it also may involve the fact that we, as the main question thread, seem to be such a tight-knit group that any newcomers might just be shunned. And I hate to say it, but we sort of have shown that tendency on more than one occasion.

Again, I think usergroups won't work because those tend to die fastttt. I remember we used to have a fanfic group here long agoooooo, but now I can't seem to find it. D:

...As a sub-note, we need moar bold topics. When was the last time we had one of those?

I think that's one of the problems also with this thread, the bold topics. It seems to be more like, "okay, I answer this, done, " kind of thing and not a real discussion. I understand part of it is we're discussing things from our fics that many people haven't read it. Hm, maybe something along the lines of discuss something someone answered from the bold topics?

If my computer is still alive by the time this comes to fruition (VIRUSES!! /raeg) then I believe I can help with that.

Oh gawds, you made me do this…


YOU ARE VIRUS! *gets shot a million times*

Okay, back to serious business here…

And now that the awards have been mentioned: I don't know if they're really going to fly. I mean, yes, they're going just peachy on Serebii, but I think that's because every writer and reviewer sort of lives inside their own thread and pokes at the Authors' Café every so often - there's none of the familiarity we here at PokéCom harbor. Plus, it's got a lot more members, so not everyone voting is as likely to know the writer - or be the writer - of a fic they're nominated for. So to be honest, I like the idea, but right now the community really isn't fit for it.

Agree with you on that. Pretty much Jax's post there says it all. XD

And now that we have thaaat subject up, do you all think we ought to move the Reviewing Guide (back?) to the main forum? I mean, it's not like the reviewers either A. enter the Writers' Lounge if they don't write or B. look past the FFL if they do.

Hm, I think it's a good idea to move the Reviewing Guide to the main forum so that more people see that. However, Jax said she'll make a couple changes to it.

Personally, I don't know about you guys, but the FFL does not suck up all of my time and it doesn't deviate me from writing or reviewing(in contrast to what I might have said while I was joking around earlier.). Rather, as you may or may not know, I'm a --sort off—busy person who lurks around PC while doing some form of work which means that most of the times I don't have time to write long, winded replies to certain statements. I don't post in the main forum as much as I should because, as stated, I'm busy and the only place where I can post a statement measuring at least six lines max without breaking a reviewing rule is the FFL. My outlook is that if I really want to review someone, I set aside some time to do a quality review rather than conjure one up on the spot where it may or may not be of any quality at all.
Anyway, like I said, I don't know why you guys don't review as much as you should(though I'm one to talk), but I think that if hat Jax said is true, we might move the FFL to the Main section so that fics and the FFL aren't separated by a subforum.

Well Astinus mentions she doesn't even care if the review is a sentence as long as you mentioned something about it. Also, to me the thing is I can write reviews quickly if I'm really focus on it, but the problem is I need to sit back and read the story. But yeah, the problem Jax mentions is it seems even though yes we're busy we could have review a fic instead of keep chatting in the lounge.

Or you know, take joy in maintaining a neutral stance while correcting people and improving your own writing at the same time. At least, that's what I do. Honestly, I don't think about 'helping writer's' when I review(thought that is a reason although I don't think about it often). I think about the joys of maintaining a neutral stance while getting to point out mistakes. Humans just love finding fault in others whether subconsciously or consciously so take that to your advantage and remember that every review eases you slowly into the community. (This is aimed at everybody btw.)

Well I think that should be everyone's reason for reviewing. You're reviewing to help someone. Not sure about improving your own writing at the same time because you the reviewer and the writer are in different level skills of writing. You have other reviewers to help you improve. Also, when you do point out mistakes though, you better make sure they're correct.

Originally posted by Buoysel
My only complaint is that you should have said something sooner. I'm not trying to be a suck up or anything, but how are we supposed to know we are going too far off topic if no one tells us?

Astinus doesn't have to be the one mention to this to us. Also, Jax did mentioned about the conversations branching off, but seems none of you notice that. Heck, if I wasn't away from PC a few days ago, I would have mentioned that.

 

[JX Valentine]

Urk. Who would want to be snarky in a review? Knowing the average amount of spine that most writers have? Just saying...

Yeah, seriously. But some people try. One of them got banned from Serebii, at least.

Moving it is up to you. I originally put it in Writer's Lounge because that's where all the guides were, but if it'll generate more attention, I definitely say yes.

Or alternatively, would it help to have a sticky with links to all the important threads?

I'm just interjecting here for a brief moment, but I actually remembered why I advocated the FFOTY contest and the nomination/voting thing. My original plan, before I lost track due to the fact that I was all over the place planning with everyone else was for the FFOTY's nomination part to be a venue where nominated fics(i.e. the good ones that deserve it) should be reviewed before being voted on. I admit that with everything else going on I kind of forgot that crucial detail and the fact that it doesn't help those new, struggling writers (which incidentally, I've occasionally reviewed and have taken up a position in the beta-thread for that reason).

The argument about the awards isn't just that it won't work because it doesn't help the newbies. The argument is the fact that it won't work because no one in the FFL looks at anything but fics from other FFL members. So, if an experienced writer came through from another writing community but didn't decide to insert themselves into the FFL, the chances of getting exposed won't exactly be fair because the FFL has the funny little habit of not actually responding to threads in the main forum.

Not sure if anyone's actually reading much, but if no one's out there replying, that's usually a good sign that you will either not set a standard or not actually cast a metaphorical net far enough to create enough competition and variety.

And, of course, not helping new authors means you probably won't get enough good fic in the future because which experienced visiting author wants to post their fic in a writing archive where few people (aside from kids who give everyone one-liner responses) review and where the average fic is by someone who has yet to be taught why you need to insert paragraph breaks after every paragraph?

Yes, but those who used to be avid reviewers now have other responsibilities(like you and your job)

Yes, because I'm sure you and all the other kids who seem to post whenever possible in this thread have no time to write a short paragraph on what you thought of a fic that might take you five minutes to read.

(See, this is why I need to rewrite the reviewing guide.)

Our FF community isn't as established as Serebii's

Our community has been here for years, Mizan. It can be established -- and, in fact, was at one point -- if people actually work on (re)building it.

Also, to me the main pattern which happens when someone new joins the FFL and is too scared(or isn't bothered enough) to strongly impose their presence(either by following the flow or challenging norms) then what we have is at least one or two members saying 'Hi' and or responding and the rest ignoring that single person. After a while, maybe because said writer feels ignored or something or maybe because he feels as though he can't really join in the lounge, they leave…

Exactly.

Like I stated earlier, the awards were initially conceived as a way to get people to read good fiction rather than award fiction for being good.

The side-effect of having the awards is that you encourage writers to conform to the standard you establish. What you describe is essentially the same thing because you're trying to get more people to write good fic so people can nominate the good fic for the awards, and at the same time, you're trying to get people to look at good fic, though those people will need good fic in order for this to work. Long story short, the awards encourage people to write good fic, so in turn, they write the good fic you need to have the awards that will expose potential reviewers to good fic.

Or, in shorter terms, you still can't blow off the fact that you kinda need good reviewers to encourage good fic for you to do this. That and you can't ignore the fact that this will influence what the writers produce, given that this is kinda a popularity contest and all.

Some reviewers (sorry MW; best example in a short space of time) just don't do it because they feel that they might be doing something wrong or they're scared of making the same mistake twice. Again, no offense MW.

*nods* Hence the reviewing guide and the soon-to-be reviewing... review... thread. (I'm still working on the name.)

Personally, I don't know about you guys, but the FFL does not suck up all of my time and it doesn't deviate me from writing or reviewing(in contrast to what I might have said while I was joking around earlier.).

Hence that little bit about more power to you. You, unfortunately, are not the entirety of the FFL. However, at the same time, I'm throwing a virtual baseball at the back of your head for thinking the awards ceremony will work with a community that doesn't review and encourage the good fic you sort of need to run the thing.

Or you know, take joy in maintaining a neutral stance while correcting people and improving your own writing at the same time.

For some people, you really need to think about puppies.

Or, you know, it could just be a joke, considering the bit about the mantra just before it.

I don't get the mouse analogy,

I will one day teach you the way of the metaphor.

The mouse thing comes from this, which refers to a cause-and-effect sort of thing. If you give a mouse a cookie, it will ask for a glass of milk. If you show a newbie reviewer a bunch of reviews by people who sound like they know what they're doing, they will ask to review the same way. Cause and effect.

So, yes, it actually is relevant because most of you are mice.

Though I'm not sure how you're going to get people to read the guide seeing as some(and I refer to the writer's community on PC; you know who you are) have barely even read the rules to begin with.

Again, cause and effect. All I need to do is force it down the throats of the regulars and make sure you know what you're doing. Then, I send you all out and review based on the guide, and the kids will mostly try to emulate you without actually reading the guide. You live by the guide, and others will follow.

There will, of course, be the occasional kiddie who doesn't bother to pay attention and continue to review one-liner sugar bits, but our aim is to get as many people to set a standard for the forum. Once a standard is set, it'll be clear to anyone who comes in how we do things around here, if that makes sense. (I'm slightly distracted here, so if I'm repetitive, sorry.)

-I always assumed that the Writer's emblem was given out for a healthy amount of writing and reviewing. Something I've been aiming for with my current reviews.

It's for putting your all into your writing. It doesn't necessarily cover reviews.

-To a certain extent, you can judge how people react based on the current analysis of the community. My guess is that when emblems are thrown out into the crowd, they lose thei value pretty quickly.

Depends on how frequently they're given out. Given how active the emblem thread is in CF&Q, I can safely assume that emblems can be pretty coveted if you set the requirements for it correctly.

Also, it's kind of hard to judge reviews since their even more varied than writing.

If we did the NaReWriMo, the point wouldn't be enforcing quality so much as encouraging people to review more frequently. As in, to increase member activity in the main forum instead of just the FFL or Writer's Lounge. We would, of course, enforce certain minimum requirements for a review to count -- like "reviews need to be more than four lines long in a Word document with these specifications, and it must mention at least two specific points and include no filler words."

Of course, we're probably not actually going with the idea (as we've discussed after that point), so this part's rather moot.

-You mean kind of like the beta-thread, but more open and more of requesting feedback rather than asking for help?

Exactly.

I'm pretty sure Digi-kun has this kind of thing over at the JE section. ;D Just saying…

And...?

Ah, but I am working on the awards…

Um, not to be snarky, but you did read the rest of that line, right? I said the awards aren't possible with the community as it is, so we need to focus on more important things at the moment, like increasing member participation and fic quality in the main forum.

As in, that's nice that you're working on the awards, but I'm actually asking people to do the opposite of working on awards at the moment.

My only complaint is that you should have said something sooner. I'm not trying to be a suck up or anything, but how are we supposed to know we are going too far off topic if no one tells us?

Common sense. A mod can't spend all her time telling you what you can and can't post. You need to exercise common member's judgement and figure out for yourself what relates to writing and what doesn't.

Though it is rather nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks we need to get something done.

Hm, the only thing is that might take up too much work and time. You would have to read though a lot of reviews AND keep track of that member's review posts. Understandable that it'll require time and effort to get this place filled with some decent reviews again, but I'm thinking along the lines of something that won't be as tedious as that.

Good point. I'll toss this idea and try to come up with something else soon. If you come up with something else in the meantime, feel free to submit.

I also say yes to that.

Usergroups in PC tends to die…fast. D: However, sticky should be fine.

Awesome. I can probably do the formatting of the review sticky/contacting the kids over at SPPf to let them know we've been inspired by their idea unless you'd like to handle the Serebii diplomacy. I know they sometimes don't like it when you put up something that looks eerily like something they've done.

The review-for-review thread shouldn't be too difficult to create. It probably just needs to have the reviewer's guide set up first.

Yeah, sounds good. Hm, if I can come up with any ideas on how to shape up this community, I'll get your guys ophinon on this (that is, if anybody here is up to the challenge THIS TIME) and get to work on it.

That'd be great. We'll definitely be waiting for what you've got to offer, Bay.

Also, I should hope they're up for the challenge. Unless they happen to have some weird fetish or something about getting ripped apart via the internet because if so, I'm going to Serebii.

 

[インフェルノの津波]

Thanks for having me read through your long posts. Ya'll could've made your point smaller.

Meh, I've been on other sites FFing. PC's, I gotta say, is a bit weird. Astinus(SUGGESTION)should probably do what Alter Ego does: Read the FF first, and then allow that person to continue.

I guess she doesn't is either she's too busy, or thinks it isn't nessicary. Oh well.

There seems to be a Flame War going on, correct?

 

[Shrike Flamestar]

I just want to say that I'd be in favor of pretty much completely restarting the lounge. Lock and archive this thread and open a brand new one with much better defined rules. Perhaps something where all discussion has to be about writing or such and disallow the general goofing off all together. Maybe open a new thread (or just leave this one for that, whatever) for general talk. Or just force people to, you know, use other parts of the forum such as the DCC and VMs. While forcibly separating the different aspects of the lounge may seem like it would kill the community, well, Serebii doesn't have anything like this lounge. Simply having a general writing discussion thread would already be an improvement over the Serebii-style community while hopefully keeping everything on topic and more approachable for newbies.

As for awards, well, looking over the results on Serebii has pretty much cemented in my mind that even if they are well executed they're still just essentially popularity contests with the most prominent members of the community at that time always winning. Newcomers never really have a chance unless there're categories specifically for newcomers, which just adds to the division between newbies and veterans that the lounge as it is here has created.

Maybe all awards should just die... X_x

 

[txteclipse]

I was going to say something about creating a group, but it's already been mentioned and ravaged, so yeah.

In all honesty, I've probably read one fanfic from start to finish in the past year, excluding one-shots. In fact, I can name it. Me and My Flame.

And you know what I just realized? It's probably the only fic during that time period I haven't tried to review. Reviewing simply became drudgery after I had done it for a while, as I felt like I was saying the same things ad nauseum. "I liked this part. This part needed help. Here's grammar mistakes." It pretty much killed the reading experience for me. The only way I can think to remedy that is for me to do epic reviews at the end of a fic (bleagh) or stop reviewing altogether.

So yeah. Seeing as I haven't made it past the first chapter of any fic I've tried to review in a long, long time, I'm going to stop trying to review for a while. Get some actual reading done. Maybe shoot some VMs to people if something really stands out. Make this a bit less of a chore and more fun, which it's supposed to be in the first place, right? I don't know, maybe I'm just not cut out for being a reviewer, or maybe I'm just being a lazy prick, but nothing's getting done either way, and I can't help but not care. I don't know where that leaves me in relation to the fanfiction section, or what it means to anyone, but I do know that I'd like to read and enjoy some writing for the first time in a while. It's time to hit the reset button on my fanfiction experience.

And who knows, maybe if I start reading again for fun I'll toss in a review here and there if I feel up to it. Right now, though...not so much.

 

[JX Valentine]

Meh, I've been on other sites FFing. PC's, I gotta say, is a bit weird. Astinus(SUGGESTION)should probably do what Alter Ego does: Read the FF first, and then allow that person to continue.

You mean set up a moderator queue? The problem with that is that you actually need to have an active mod who's willing to devote a lot of time to filtering out posts, especially if we manage to gain more activity. That's aside from having to figure out just what the standard of fic should be in the first place. Asty's a pretty busy person, so while she's considered in the past if I recall correctly, it's just not practical for her.

Not to mention, yeah, it's not particularly necessary. The number of fics that Asty actually legitimately has to close or delete because they're against one rule or another is pretty low per week, and the rest of the fics that go through here are from people who just need a good helping hand. That is, after all, why you post your story in the first place -- to get feedback on it that will help you out of the newbie writer stage.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

There seems to be a Flame War going on, correct?

Incorrect. Flaming would be if I outright called you a moron. Being harsh with concrit is me telling you that someone needs a good kick in the pants to get the forum fixed up so we can actually have a functional writing community again. I've been doing the latter, and the rest of you lot are pretty vanilla with your tempers.

I just want to say that I'd be in favor of pretty much completely restarting the lounge. Lock and archive this thread and open a brand new one with much better defined rules.

Probably a good idea, too, and it'd be made easier if we go with the idea of locking the current FFL for awhile. That'll give us time to get ourselves ready for the new thread.

As for awards, well, looking over the results on Serebii has pretty much cemented in my mind that even if they are well executed they're still just essentially popularity contests with the most prominent members of the community at that time always winning. Newcomers never really have a chance unless there're categories specifically for newcomers, which just adds to the division between newbies and veterans that the lounge as it is here has created.

Well, in their defense, this isn't exactly true. If we consider a newbie to be someone who joined within five or six months of the nomination period, about a third of the nominations in Serebii's awards -- including in categories that aren't specifically geared towards newbies -- are actually stories written by newcomers to the board. This includes LampShade, Giratina, DarkScyther, Mrs. Lovett, and yours truly. So, it's actually plausible for a newbie to get nominated even if you aren't a prominent figure of the community, but you'd need to change the way the community works first. In other words, yeah, if you guys really want to have an awards ceremony, sure, go right ahead after we fix the place up a bit.

Of course, either way, you're right about it being a popularity contest, especially during the voting phase.

Edit, @ txt: I honestly don't know where that leaves you, either. While I acknowledge that reading (and reviewing) is meant to be more of a hobby than a chore, I just hope that not everyone is intimidated by reviewing. It's really not that difficult, and it's possible to set up guides we can link to that contain information on the same things over and over again (like a more refined guide to grammar/list of resources where someone might find grammar rules/links to online spell checkers... the whole works). Like I said, I'm not expecting people to rip a fic completely apart. I'm just expecting people to actually go out there and say something if they're going to consider themselves active members of this community instead of just sit in one thread.

In other words, it's fine if you're busy or if you want to ninja the forum, but if anyone else wants to consider themselves active vets, they'll just have to be prepared to actually be active and productive in the entire writing community.

 

[bobandbill]

So yeah PC died when I orginally tried to post something aaaaaaaaaa oh well take two.

Eh, I've been dead recently, and haven't much to say to these recent posts and all, besides YES change of that kind sounds most good. I have to agree it's been too...ehh recently here - the memes seem more forced than anything, the off-topic discussion just doesn't get me interested, and there has been a decline I feel. Certainly I feel it is possible to reboot this place to before (and hell even better), but that would involve input/activity from us all (generally speaking), for one-liner reviews which I have seen recently are just...bah (yes you can tell I am not being wordy atm I blame 5am starts).

So let's do it. (Actually I like the fact easter is about - I smell a break that can be used =D). And personally I think it's very possible to do this.

I also like the talks of a reviewer thread, maybe not unlike sppf's as well, but might need more discussion. On restarting this thread... well, sure it's long and could practically apply to be heritage-listed and all, but that may just b the problem with it. And look at the first posts - it doesn't really help. Maybe the sheer size of it even intimidates. And heck, change can be good.

Needless to say I be willing to help out if stuff needs helping out with if time provides. =)

Heck, the Beta Thread is slowly going. I just told someone today to find a beta, and I'm not sure if there is one around here.

Yes, it is slow to say the least. I remember when it started about 5 applications came about within the first few days? And we're there after over some months after the reboot and sadly a good number of us are caught up in irl stuff or other priorities/already take on a number of clients all over the place. =/ That's one thing some people could add to... well, provided I suppose the aforementioned reviewing standard is improved, but surely there are other people who could apply and help out the community? =P

Of course, either way, you're right about it being a popularity contest, especially during the voting phase.

What contest isn't, really? XD But yeah, considering some results of mine...well, I'm just whating at things atm. WHAT. See. Like that. Yeah I need sleep darn you uni. >:[

 

[JX Valentine]

I also like the talks of a reviewer thread, maybe not unlike sppf's as well, but might need more discussion.

Sure. What did you have in mind (in terms of discussion)?

Needless to say I be willing to help out if stuff needs helping out with if time provides. =)

Awesome.

Actually, there is something you can probably do right now. Since I'm a lowly newbie over at SPPf who doesn't know the kids in their writing comm that much, could you use your sexy modly swagger over there to chat up Buraado Aipom/the mods and ask them if it's okay if we use something resembling their reviewing thread? They might take you more seriously.

What contest isn't, really? XD[

My thoughts exactly. XD

Also, while we're on the train of thought for renovations everywhere, what do you guys think about taking this time to revise and consolidate/build the guides for writing and all that fun stuff that we've been meaning to do anyway? This is relevant because it'll be nice to have and point to so reviewers who aren't up for ripping apart fics can just point to a thread and go, "Here. This'll help you." So, it takes a bit of load off the kids who wouldn't normally review because they don't want to do something as time-consuming as rip apart a fic line by line, which means I have more of a reason to boot you in the rear if you get lazy.

Thoughts? If approved, I'll go over the current guides and compile a list of assignments and deadlines for all volunteers. You get vague rewards for it.

 

[Miz en Scène]

I have GIMP, so I can just modify the pic's size and such in a snap. Hm, any picture in mind?

This?
Ignore the fact that it's my DeviantArt calling card/ID, but would the feather in that pic do? I have the original render(which I made and have the transparent version) and can modify the hues so that you can get different colours. I just need someone else to work on the details and you know general aesthetics of the emblem. The feather as a kind of metaphor for writing.

Again, I think usergroups won't work because those tend to die fastttt. I remember we used to have a fanfic group here long agoooooo, but now I can't seem to find it. D:

I think all groups were reset last year.

I think that's one of the problems also with this thread, the bold topics. It seems to be more like, "okay, I answer this, done, " kind of thing and not a real discussion. I understand part of it is we're discussing things from our fics that many people haven't read it. Hm, maybe something along the lines of discuss something someone answered from the bold topics?

I've been saying this since early November, but everytime we reached a peak in activity besides bold topics, we slowly degenerated back into one-topic replies.

Hm, I think it's a good idea to move the Reviewing Guide to the main forum so that more people see that. However, Jax said she'll make a couple changes to it.

Seconded. Also up for moving the FFL to the main forum.

Well Astinus mentions she doesn't even care if the review is a sentence as long as you mentioned something about it. Also, to me the thing is I can write reviews quickly if I'm really focus on it, but the problem is I need to sit back and read the story. But yeah, the problem Jax mentions is it seems even though yes we're busy we could have review a fic instead of keep chatting in the lounge.

True. Though, sometimes you really do need to point out grammatical mistakes in fics. I seem to have a problem keeping that compact at times because I occasionally always end up correcting everything instead of doing a short review… Apart from that, yeah, I agree.

Or alternatively, would it help to have a sticky with links to all the important threads?

Except that no one would read said thread if we're relying on current mentality.

The argument about the awards isn't just that it won't work because it doesn't help the newbies. The argument is the fact that it won't work because no one in the FFL looks at anything but fics from other FFL members. So, if an experienced writer came through from another writing community but didn't decide to insert themselves into the FFL, the chances of getting exposed won't exactly be fair because the FFL has the funny little habit of not actually responding to threads in the main forum.

Not sure if anyone's actually reading much, but if no one's out there replying, that's usually a good sign that you will either not set a standard or not actually cast a metaphorical net far enough to create enough competition and variety.

Chances are that someone from outside the FFL will come along and read them, and if we remove nomination criteria we'd have people from outside the P&W who'd probably be unbiased and might read something other than veteran fics.

Yes, because I'm sure you and all the other kids who seem to post whenever possible in this thread have no time to write a short paragraph on what you thought of a fic that might take you five minutes to read.

You overestimate some people and the speed at which some people read. To some, the current conversation in the FFL might look as daunting as reading a moderately long fic. Also, you can't really read just a portion of a fic and review based on that single portion. Sometimes, you really do need to have at least a basic understanding of the storyline in order to do a quality review(plot, characterization and all.).

Our community has been here for years, Mizan. It can be established -- and, in fact, was at one point -- if people actually work on (re)building it.

It depends on your definition of established, which I see my Malaysian based, English education has failed me again unless of course, it's not and I'm being stupid. When I say established, I mean that the writer's don't just convene at one spot and talk randomly while new writer's are left in the rain and the Section basically splits in half and neither sides benefit(much). Of course, it's an oversight in my use of language.

The side-effect of having the awards is that you encourage writers to conform to the standard you establish. What you describe is essentially the same thing because you're trying to get more people to write good fic so people can nominate the good fic for the awards, and at the same time, you're trying to get people to look at good fic, though those people will need good fic in order for this to work. Long story short, the awards encourage people to write good fic, so in turn, they write the good fic you need to have the awards that will expose potential reviewers to good fic.

True enough…

Hence that little bit about more power to you. You, unfortunately, are not the entirety of the FFL. However, at the same time, I'm throwing a virtual baseball at the back of your head for thinking the awards ceremony will work with a community that doesn't review and encourage the good fic you sort of need to run the thing.

Thus the use of the word 'personally'. And with the Easter break, I can hopefully get some reviewing up.

I will one day teach you the way of the metaphor.

The mouse thing comes from this, which refers to a cause-and-effect sort of thing. If you give a mouse a cookie, it will ask for a glass of milk. If you show a newbie reviewer a bunch of reviews by people who sound like they know what they're doing, they will ask to review the same way. Cause and effect.

So, yes, it actually is relevant because most of you are mice.

I've never seen that and a metaphor only works if you know what you're referring to. But thanks for sharing the snippet.

Again, cause and effect. All I need to do is force it down the throats of the regulars and make sure you know what you're doing. Then, I send you all out and review based on the guide, and the kids will mostly try to emulate you without actually reading the guide. You live by the guide, and others will follow.

There will, of course, be the occasional kiddie who doesn't bother to pay attention and continue to review one-liner sugar bits, but our aim is to get as many people to set a standard for the forum. Once a standard is set, it'll be clear to anyone who comes in how we do things around here, if that makes sense. (I'm slightly distracted here, so if I'm repetitive, sorry.)

I suppose so.

Depends on how frequently they're given out. Given how active the emblem thread is in CF&Q, I can safely assume that emblems can be pretty coveted if you set the requirements for it correctly.

Yes, but in your quote you said 'for participation'. Anyway, as long as we keep the conditions of the emblem either vague or appropriately high, we might be able to set it as a prize.

And...?

Notice the end where I said 'just saying' which I take it to mean as it being a trivial amount of info. Now that I think about it however, it could also be used as some form of weak reference to what we're trying to do here though I don't think it helps much since we already know what to do in theory.

Um, not to be snarky, but you did read the rest of that line, right? I said the awards aren't possible with the community as it is, so we need to focus on more important things at the moment, like increasing member participation and fic quality in the main forum.

I suppose I wasn't thinking to clearly at the time.

Anyway, after all that, I'm willing to help start the revolution. Incidentally, we tried one a few months ago(if memory serves) and failed… :(

 

[Giratina ♀]

Seconded. Also up for moving the FFL to the main forum.

Um, I don't believe that moving the FFL will help at all. This subforum was designed for people interested in writing being able to talk about their concepts - yeah, it's a big version of the FFL but we all saw how well that went. Anyway, if we renovate the FFL and make a new one covering all of those concepts and keeping them in line, and if we move that thread to the main forum, well... I think that the Writers' Lounge would just degenerate even more now that we have a nice, shiny thread to cover everything, and if that happened, why even keep it around?

Except that no one would read said thread if we're relying on current mentality.

My mentality might just be off, but why's that?

True enough…

Of course, a lot of people could just go, "Oh, hey, awards... yeah, I can't do that." Which brings us to another problem and it's pretty much balanced out.

And with the Easter break,

I'm on Easter spring break, durp, right now. So I don't know how much I can help you with this all day revolutionfest unless i'm at home.

I've never seen that and a metaphor only works if you know what you're referring to. But thanks for sharing the snippet.

I believe it was in reference to some sort of children's book...?

I suppose so.

I suppose I wasn't thinking to clearly at the time.

Incidentally, we tried one a few months ago(if memory serves) and failed… :(

Well then the answer is simple: Do it this time!

Also, while we're on the train of thought for renovations everywhere, what do you guys think about taking this time to revise and consolidate/build the guides for writing and all that fun stuff that we've been meaning to do anyway?

This sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure about doing the "community revision derp!" plan that we had set a while back. We'll need to nominate people for being able to write these guides.

 

[JX Valentine]

True. Though, sometimes you really do need to point out grammatical mistakes in fics.

While this is true, it's not necessary to point out the same mistakes over and over again, which would actually take out a lot of bulk in a review and avoid insulting the intelligence of the writer you're reviewing. Just explain it once or point to a grammatical guide that can explain it for you. (It takes two minutes to find a decent guide to grammar via Google and another half a minute to make a link to it in my review.)

Except that no one would read said thread if we're relying on current mentality.

Then, we'll just have to find a way to improve that current mentality. Either way, we need stickies – the guides, the rules, and the tools people need (such as our potential review request thread) – so if you believe no one would read something as simple as a library of the most important threads they should check, what would be some way to get people to read them?

Chances are that someone from outside the FFL will come along and read them, and if we remove nomination criteria we'd have people from outside the P&W who'd probably be unbiased and might read something other than veteran fics.

=|

I really have no doubt people outside the FFL would nominate, but I'm not sure if you've seen the reviewers and kinds of fics out there right now. I mean, really? You've got one-liners praising fics with generic plots, one-dimensional characters, and barely any evidence of proofreading. These are the kids who probably wouldn't dig too far back into the archives. Hence why we need to increase member activity -- to set a standard for what we expect reviewers to look at and do for a writer and to encourage FFL vets to actually connect to the rest of the community.

On top of that, FFL members are the ones trying to run this thing, but a number of the people providing input and considering themselves regulars don't actually go out there and look at fics. In order to run something like that, you do need to actually connect to the rest of the forum.

Furthermore, don't rely on input from people outside this forum. Unless they intend on actually writing or otherwise participating in the forum, it's very rare for someone from elsewhere on PC to care.

Also, if no one pays attention to important threads, would they really pay much attention to an awards thread?

You overestimate some people and the speed at which some people read. To some, the current conversation in the FFL might look as daunting as reading a moderately long fic. Also, you can't really read just a portion of a fic and review based on that single portion. Sometimes, you really do need to have at least a basic understanding of the storyline in order to do a quality review(plot, characterization and all.).

Mizan. There are people here who spend all their time in the FFL. You can devote a small portion of that time to reviewing. Moreover, most of the fics around here are actually sort of short, and as I've said, it doesn't actually take that much effort to write a short paragraph about something in the story.

It depends on your definition of established,

A community where people actually talked about writing and where people actually read and reviewed fics. We had an MotM system for awhile, and when Asty rose to power, we still had writing games and active threads in Writer's Lounge about a variety of writing-related topics.

So, yes, we had an established community. And then, somewhere along the line, the FFL kinda went south.

I've never seen that and a metaphor only works if you know what you're referring to.

A metaphor works when you compare one thing to another. On top of that, I would assume it's pretty easy to figure out what I was trying to say, even if you didn't get the reference. (As in, my point was if you give a newbie a good review, they'd emulate it.)

Notice the end where I said 'just saying' which I take it to mean as it being a trivial amount of info.

Mizan, here's why I get really annoyed at you while talking to you on the FFL. You bring up points that have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the discussion except because you can bring them up. This is not constructive, and really, unless you're suggesting to use it as a template for a format, it's unlikely that it'll actually be helpful to improving the FFL.

Long story short, that's nice, Mizan, but in the future, please only offer input that's going to help what we're doing.

Anyway, after all that, I'm willing to help start the revolution. Incidentally, we tried one a few months ago(if memory serves) and failed… :(

That's because you didn't have someone who was willing to ride your ass into getting something done. Trust me. Once I get some feedback on what needs to be done – for those other guides, for what our strategy will be for increasing member activity, what have you – a thread of jobs will be organized for people to volunteer for, deadlines will be established, and kittens will be on standby to be drawn and quartered for anyone who waltzes out on whatever duties they decide to take up.

Edit, @ Giratina:

This sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure about doing the "community revision derp!" plan that we had set a while back. We'll need to nominate people for being able to write these guides.

Very good point. First, what guides need to be revised? Second, how should we do this? Have someone take on writing the basics and have people add to what they've suggested or have one person knowledgeable in the subject write the entire guide for us to review after they're done?

Also, would anyone object to using Google Docs for this?

 

[Miz en Scène]

While this is true, it's not necessary to point out the same mistakes over and over again, which would actually take out a lot of bulk in a review and avoid insulting the intelligence of the writer you're reviewing. Just explain it once or point to a grammatical guide that can explain it for you. (It takes two minutes to find a decent guide to grammar via Google and another half a minute to make a link to it in my review.)




=|

I really have no doubt people outside the FFL would nominate, but I'm not sure if you've seen the reviewers and kinds of fics out there right now. I mean, really? You've got one-liners praising fics with generic plots, one-dimensional characters, and barely any evidence of proofreading. These are the kids who probably wouldn't dig too far back into the archives. Hence why we need to increase member activity -- to set a standard for what we expect reviewers to look at and do for a writer and to encourage FFL vets to actually connect to the rest of the community.

On top of that, FFL members are the ones trying to run this thing, but a number of the people providing input and considering themselves regulars don't actually go out there and look at fics. In order to run something like that, you do need to actually connect to the rest of the forum.

Furthermore, don't rely on input from people outside this forum. Unless they intend on actually writing or otherwise participating in the forum, it's very rare for someone from elsewhere on PC to care.

Also, if no one pays attention to important threads, would they really pay much attention to an awards thread?



Mizan. There are people here who spend all their time in the FFL. You can devote a small portion of that time to reviewing. Moreover, most of the fics around here are actually sort of short, and as I've said, it doesn't actually take that much effort to write a short paragraph about something in the story.

Because I'd rather not spend my time arguing and the fact that your logic is irrefutable, I agree.

A metaphor works when you compare one thing to another. On top of that, I would assume it's pretty easy to figure out what I was trying to say, even if you didn't get the reference. (As in, my point was if you give a newbie a good review, they'd emulate it.)

No, I understood the metaphor. I just didn't get what mice had to do with it that's all.

Mizan, here's why I get really annoyed at you while talking to you on the FFL. You bring up points that have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the discussion except because you can bring them up. This is not constructive, and really, unless you're suggesting to use it as a template for a format, it's unlikely that it'll actually be helpful to improving the FFL.

It's an annoying quirk of mine so I apologize.


Anyway, my input to the current discussion is that maybe, asides from the Reviewing Guide, we can actually have some form of practice for budding reviewers? As in, where we could have a badfic(purposely written) that we could use as a review practice alongside another where we could have possible answers. Kind of like having a maths paper where there are all these possible ways of working out the answer, but there being only one solution. In essence, I'm suggesting a worksheet with answers for anyone who's interested in doing them since knowing theory doesn't always imply practical use.

 

[Breezy]

YEARLY BREEZY POST ON PC ALERT! It probs has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so I'ma just say it's a general response to ... whatever is being discussed. Sorry if I repeated points. D:

As a somewhat outsider looking in, I can sympathize with the new author trying to post here (the FFL). Conversation here goes a mile a minute, and it is hard to keep up (I looked at this thread around noon and had several more essays here once I came back seven hours later), and while the community is obviously tight-knit and friendly, it does seem intimidating as a new author to try to make a name for himself in this thread. Unlike other forums, where reviewing other stories is key to getting your name out there, this forum seems to rely strongly on the FFL in order for your name to get noticed. But it's circular. "How am I suppose to join the conversation if I feel like everyone is too tight-knit and close? But then again, I know that if I don't become part of the pack, then my story will probably never take flight. I could try reviewing other stories but rarely anyone from FFL (the veterans) actually ventures outside the FFL and his/her own stories. So now what?"

A lot of this does have to do with the memes and the inside jokes you guys have, and while I'm all up for jokes (and in fact promote it as it makes the community much more laid back and enjoyable), there still need to be some sort of objective writer element that anyone can discuss, new or veteran. I know you guys are friendly and would be friendly if a newborn lamb (puppy?) stumbled in here. I had a point with this paragraph. I just don't remember what. I guess just to say that you lot are nice? XD

The FFL is pretty much "general writing discussion" right? That is a lot. Have you guys considered making moar stickies to the thirty you already have for topics that commonly come up? For example, a Fic Ideas sticky would probably be helpful for a new kid because

A) he won't have to randomly break up the current conversation in the FFL
B) he won't feel intimidated because each few posts is generally a new topic
C) it'll stop spamming the FFL and the Writer's Lounge forum
D) PIE

The bold topics in FFL is a great idea as it gives the new kid something to say without having to talk about random joke/discussion that he knows nothing about, but like someone else says, it's mostly "I'll answer with one line then continue on" rather than an actual in-depth discussion, not unless someone gets all hot and bothered (and not in the good way) over it. When you create new threads based on one subject, people tend to discuss it more thoroughly. So perhaps creating a new thread for in depth discussion would bring in the scared people that are afraid of posting in FFL. Example: a thread discussing pokemon-centric stories. Of course, this might seem ... useless as the only people that would post in that thread would probably be, well, you guys, so you want to try to bring the two worlds (the newbies and veterans) together under one topic on occasion. Something like "What inspired you to write pokemon fanfiction?" or "What's your favorite canon to use?"

I'm all up for revising your "how to review" thread and creating a "review of a review" thread, but you have to note that not many a newbie is going to want to read it. Mostly because the thread right now is long as hell (no one keel me plz) and because it is a lot to digest for a beginner. I feel it's more framed toward "the reviewer who wants to expand further on his review technique" rather than a reviewer who is just starting out.

So, yeah. This is where you veteran reviewers really need to get out into the main forum and set an example. New reviewers mimic a style that is commonly seen. If I can make a SPPf analogy, take the Yami Ryu situation. There were threads that complained about her style, stickies created in order to counter her review style, but because Yami's style was the most dominant, then more new reviewers tried to emulate it. And if this reviewers wants to expand on his knowledge, that is when he'll head into the "how to review" thread.

(Not unless you plan on creating a bare bones review thread as well that is framed toward the starting reviewer. And even then, pshh, is new reviewer going to want to read that?)

Anyway, my input to the current discussion is that maybe, asides from the Reviewing Guide, we can actually have some form of practice for budding reviewers? As in, where we could have a badfic(purposely written) that we could use as a review practice alongside another where we could have possible answers. Kind of like having a maths paper where there are all these possible ways of working out the answer, but there being only one solution. In essence, I'm suggesting a worksheet with answers for anyone who's interested in doing them since knowing theory doesn't always imply practical use.

Cute in theory, but I'm not sure how you can have definite answers for something like this as reviewing is mostly subjective besides grammar (because we all know reviews are more than just checking for a kid's grammar, right? And if we are just doing a grammar check review, we are explaining how to fix this error, right? So error will happen less often, right?) Especially when you come to more "advanced stories" where there aren't as many mechanical errors like grammar and obvious one-dimensioned characters. A response in these type of stories more about how the reviewer feels about a certain area. Something that might trouble one reviewer might not trouble another. I understand it is hard to review for these type of stories because there isn't anything concrete. So I'm all up for that "hell, say something that you at least liked!" line. lulz.

This is, like, twenty times longer than I wanted it to be. Whoops.

 

[Miz en Scène]

Cute in theory, but I'm not sure how you can have definite answers for something like this as reviewing is mostly subjective besides grammar (because we all know reviews are more than just checking for a kid's grammar, right? And if we are just doing a grammar check review, we are explaining how to fix this error, right? So error will happen less often, right?) Especially when you come to more "advanced stories" where there aren't as many mechanical errors like grammar and obvious one-dimensioned characters. A response in these type of stories more about how the reviewer feels about a certain area. Something that might trouble one reviewer might not trouble another. I understand it is hard to review for these type of stories because there isn't anything concrete. So I'm all up for that "hell, say something that you at least liked!" line. lulz.

Like I said 'possible answers'. You shouldn't take the maths paper analogy because that only has one definite answer(most of the times when it isn't referring to variable range). Anyway, if I wasn't making myself clear, what I meant was a possible question paper in which you might try to review said question without making a fool of yourself if you're one of those people that feel scared to review in case you make mistakes. The answer sheet need not be definite in terms of characterization, but only show all grammatical corrections, possible alternatives to language use, and ways to make one-sided characters a lot more livelier. So yeah, an essay answer key need not be definite, but only need to show most of the definite grammatical answers and some others as stated above. If you get more than what's stated, good for you.

Furthermore, the exercise is only meant as a sort of stepping stone so you know what you're dealing with before actually doing it. It doesn't have to give an example of every type of fic and how to review different kinds of characters and plots.