Fanfiction Lounge

[Sike_Saner]

So, I'd like to hear what other people have to say about canon cocktailing. Should it be done? Is it canon violation? What sort of restrictions would you think come with canon cocktailing so that it's separated from canon violation if you don't think it is?

Canon cocktailing's fine by me. I don't consider it to be canon violation (though even if I did, I still probably wouldn't mind it ^^;). I do think that it works best when mixing things that don't blatantly contradict one another, though.

 

[Act]

I can't find Negrek's last post D:.

So, I'd like to hear what other people have to say about canon cocktailing. Should it be done? Is it canon violation? What sort of restrictions would you think come with canon cocktailing so that it's separated from canon violation if you don't think it is?

I think it our fandom it's almost necessary. Like you said, you don't really get to see the full charcater of a canon character *without* cocktailing. There's so much that isn't touched in anime that is in games, and then there's the 29081 manga storylines to draw from...

The problem you have is when there's blatant contradictions. Because a lot fo pokemon manga is almost fanfic-like, you get charcaters like Sabrina, who, canonically, has about 7 different personalities. Then I don't have any problem with picking-and-chooing, although I guess some people would prefer to remain constant. Of course, the more obscure th canon you use, the more you should probably cite it.

*shrug*

 

[JX Valentine]

(My question is, how did you decide to deal with his accent? In the games, he doesn't have any; in the anime, he's British; and in the manga, he's a American Southern boy(which I don't know if that was in the original). All three are different, and I wish to hear what you decided and how.)

Usually, when I write about Bill, I do either of two things:

A. Don't mention his accent and allow the reader to choose.
B. Deal with the anime incarnation and go with a British accent.

Most often, I end up going with B (which also gives me a specific description, as his physical appearance also tends to be drastically different -- thank you, lack of character concepts back in RBY) because that was the first incarnation of Bill I was exposed to and the first I wrote fanfiction using. So, it's just that I'm most comfortable with envisioning Bill's anime self than I am with any of his other forms, which means if I make canon cocktails, it's usually to build upon the lack of a character that the anime left him with (which is also why I like working with him).

Also, thanks for the responses so far about canon cocktailing. It's actually a reassurance because I was hoping I didn't sound like a hypocrite a couple posts back (considering I tend to do it because I often write about side characters in universes that left them with too little screentime for anything other than what can be done in half an episode). XD

 

[purple_drake]

I groaned out loud when this topic came up, I really did. ^.^;; Probably because I've spent a lot of time debating the issue with one of those strict canon-nazis Jax mentioned (with absolutely no disrespect intended, because said canon-nazi is one of the most insightful people I've talked to), with the upshot that I am heartily sick and tired of the subject.

...that said, you wouldn't believe how much my perception's changed from what it was.

I know I'm more aware of the different canons now than I ever was, whereas before I went with the 'under one umbrella therefore fair game' route. The idea of sticking to the basic laws of canon, such as with the Exploding Charizard thing, have always been a given for me, but part of the reason I like the Pokemon fandom so much is, as everyone else has said, because it's so flexible. Back then, however, it had simply never occurred to me to write stories fixed in one set of canon laws or another, which is obviously a perfectly legitimate thing to do.

So I don't have a problem even with broad interpretations (although obviously I have my own interpretations too, which I'm biased towards :P ). And despite all the debating, I still don't have a problem with cocktailing; just that now I'm more aware of what each canon offers, how the canons contradict, and how cocktailing might or might not work--and as a result, my own interpretation has changed dramatically. Plus, if the contradictions are small enough, I wouldn't have a problem with suspending disbelief, depending on the story, the author, and how it's handled.

In the end I'd probably judge on a story-by-story basis, as opposed to saying that a story's bad, period, because they used that thing from that canon in this canon (without actually seeing whether or not the plotpoint/character/whatever works for the purposes of the story). Which, really, is the kinda same as saying that all OT fics are bad 'cos they're OT (because they're 'cliche', 'overdone', etc).

All that said, I think it's the author's intention and the spirit of what they're trying to portray that's the most important. True, canon is there to guide you and should be adhered to (or else what's the point in writing in the fandom at all?) but I'm not about to shoot someone down for taking creative license if it works, because even if the rules of canon have been stretched, you can usually tell when a writer really cares about the characters and the fandom.

Also, thanks for the responses so far about canon cocktailing. It's actually a reassurance because I was hoping I didn't sound like a hypocrite a couple posts back (considering I tend to do it because I often write about side characters in universes that left them with too little screentime for anything other than what can be done in half an episode). XD

I hear yah. Gawd, do I ever hear yah. In fact I got to the point where I was so concerned about how my stories manipulate canon (and wondering whether that made me a bad fan or not) that I couldn't write at all.

...and that makes me sound unbelievably sad. ^.^;;; Fortunately I'm pretty much over that now, but I still hadn't been planning on getting in on the topic until I saw everyone's replies.

 

[Scarlet Weather]

I'm not sure I understand the sense in that. The whole point of characters is that they have problems, and the plot is the resolution of these problems. Brushing aside personal-ity is essentially brushing aside characterization. Of course, an entire fic isn't a mope-fest, but it is a pretty essential part. You're also assuming 'problems' is angsty and emo, which isn't always the case.


EDIT: I feel like Joe Campbell might be turning over in his grave right now as we apply him to Pokemon fanfic

Mostly because what I'm trying to say here is that the feelings of my characters in the here and now are not the subject of my plot. What I write about is the situation that they become embroiled in and how they react, which is based on their personality. If you want a better idea, read "Thief in the Night" in preview form. Drop me a review while you're at it. As for you, Miss Moonie, never presume to call me "dear". You will address me as "ACC-M", "ACC", or "Sir". *shot'ed*

Anyway, in answer to your comments, Psy, you apparently missed the "average shonen manga"/"Special" bit. In Pokemon special, character death is entirely present and complex characters are as well. (Good example is the Mask of Ice, a villain who at first appears to be a stereotypic "Pokemon are tools" guy but reveals his true goal to be the restoration of a young Lapras he captured to its parents, who died on the ice as a result of his mistake.) What I'm trying to say here is that Pokemon isn't usually the genre you want to insert something like, say, an apocalypse plot into IMO. (Well, PMD works surprisingly well for post-apocalyptic, but nevermind). There are gazillions of other fandoms out there in which plots like the end of the world would match both canon characters and universe perfectly, but Pokemon is more of a universe driven by the journey of the individual. I think that as such, it's not exactly the place in which you want to be going completely overboard with sob stories and violent deaths. As for your one-shots, haven't read 'em to the best of my memory, so I don't remember their quality. Gomen. 0.o

Anyway, no matter how great a one-shot is, I can't see Ash or Misty getting together, ever, or any other shipping coming to fruition (even one I support). By the same token, I don't see the apocalypse coming anytime soon. Even if it were triggered, some ten-year-old kid is also on hand to stop it. XD (But hey, guess everyone has a different taste. I go for happy endings and suspenseful/more lighthearted themes, you people go for darker, more melancholy ones. Whatever floats yer boat, I suppose.)

Canon cocktailing? Unless your fic exclusively deals with a major character in one set canon, go right ahead. I'll do it. XD

As for crabhammering Scizor, I think that's an oversight on the game designer's part. That should have made its movepool, big time.

 

[Astinus]

Yeah, but ACC-kun, what route a writer takes in the fanfic they are writing is entirely up to their opinion. And, since I was playing Pearl just a few minutes ago, I'll use something from both the game and your post to show what I mean.

In the game, Team Galactic wants to blow things up and screw around with time and space. (I'm not sure, since I skimmed over the speeches.) But they are stopped by some punky little ten-year-old with a team of Pokemon and a funky hat on their head. And this is accepted because that's the way things are done in that world.

But, what if someone wanted to write a fanfic where Team Galactic succeeds and they blow up things/time/space/what have you for whatever reason. The storyline isn't wrong. The author isn't wrong and shouldn't be told to go write for another fandom where things actually do get blown up because there are no punky ten-year-olds in hats to save the day. If they want to write dark Pokemon fanfiction, then they are allowed to.

It's the same with shipping fics. Everyone can write about whatever couple they want to. Know why? Because the author is mainly writing for themselves, and everyone else comes second. So what the author wants to see is what the author writes. Which is why you write your happy endings, and others write their post-apocalyptic stories, and we all get together in semi-harmony. Except for when we all argue about what to call one another.

(But you all already knew that. I'll just bow out now.)

 

[Yamato-san]

You will address me as "ACC-M", "ACC", or "Sir". *shot'ed*

would that be "A-C-C-M" or "Ack-M"?

In the game, Team Galactic wants to blow things up and screw around with time and space. (I'm not sure, since I skimmed over the speeches.) But they are stopped by some punky little ten-year-old with a team of Pokemon and a funky hat on their head. And this is accepted because that's the way things are done in that world.

But, what if someone wanted to write a fanfic where Team Galactic succeeds and they blow up things/time/space/what have you for whatever reason. The storyline isn't wrong. The author isn't wrong and shouldn't be told to go write for another fandom where things actually do get blown up because there are no punky ten-year-olds in hats to save the day. If they want to write dark Pokemon fanfiction, then they are allowed to.

the thing is, the games are conveniently set up so that you, the player, are capable of doing everything. The story follows you alone, so of course you've gotta be there for all the save-the-world plot and whatnot. The ability to become the champion and to collect every Pokemon is a goal set-up by the game, so it's only natural that you, a mere 10-year old avatar, will be privileged to catch rare (supposedly one-of-a-kind, even) legendary Pokemon and defeat the reigning champ (who's usually packing a Pokemon team that's 40 levels shy of the maximum level that can be reached in the game).

In a more realistic setting, however, it's not so plausible that a mere kid is capable of doing all these things when there're several skilled adults who've been training Pokemon for years (logically speaking, even if a kid starts out just seeming naturally skilled at commanding Pokemon and strategizing battles, it means nothing without experience). More than likely, you can expect that, if the evil teams are gonna be stopped in the first place, they'd probably be stopped by some adults, namely the police or even some of those Gym Leaders/E4/Champions who're renowned for their skills, who'd just need to get off their lazy a**es and help out. Also, you can expect the evil team members to actually try to attack human Trainers directly, maybe try some underhanded sneaking tactics, or sniping off any opposition, as opposed to letting a kid walk up to confront them and starting off a fair Pokemon battle (one must consider the game and its program limitations.... in the Special manga among others, and I believe even the anime sometimes, this is hardly the case). It's even possible to replace all Pokemon usage with regular weaponry (if not a mixture of the two), though it would be a little tricky given the strength of nearly all Pokemon (but in contrast, there's quite a bit of advanced technology as well, not the least of which being all those Rocket mechas in the anime).

This would be some more stuff I'd like to use in doujinshi, personally. In my long-running series, for instance, I don't even intend for the main character to be much of a fighter, and in most cases, he's getting backed up by a more capable battler (a police woman in her 20s). Some antagonists will often use guns, too (though, they will tend to get knocked out of their hands before they can be used, often with Quick Attack or a projectile technique). Incidentally, in my hentai, I actually do intend to portray the protagonist as growing to be powerful, with the potential to take on the champion, but I somewhat justify this due to a harsh environment he trains in (likewise, even if I did somehow use the "10-year old saves the world" gig, I'd find some method of justifying it).

 

[purple_drake]

In a more realistic setting, however, it's not so plausible that a mere kid is capable of doing all these things when there're several skilled adults who've been training Pokemon for years (logically speaking, even if a kid starts out just seeming naturally skilled at commanding Pokemon and strategizing battles, it means nothing without experience). More than likely, you can expect that, if the evil teams are gonna be stopped in the first place, they'd probably be stopped by some adults, namely the police or even some of those Gym Leaders/E4/Champions who're renowned for their skills, who'd just need to get off their lazy a**es and help out. Also, you can expect the evil team members to actually try to attack human Trainers directly, maybe try some underhanded sneaking tactics, or sniping off any opposition, as opposed to letting a kid walk up to confront them and starting off a fair Pokemon battle (one must consider the game and its program limitations.... in the Special manga among others, and I believe even the anime sometimes, this is hardly the case). It's even possible to replace all Pokemon usage with regular weaponry (if not a mixture of the two), though it would be a little tricky given the strength of nearly all Pokemon (but in contrast, there's quite a bit of advanced technology as well, not the least of which being all those Rocket mechas in the anime).

I LOVE YOU!!

This is my biggest peeve about the games, and is one of the reasons I like the anime so much--because at least Ash isn't going around beating Elites, and I've thought up a legitimate reason why rookie trainers are able to defeat supposedly-extra-powerful trainers (AKA the gym leaders) so that's a pill I can swallow.

It's also the biggest reason why I don't read OTs as often as I'd like, because usually the protagonists are that age and I know that by the end of the story (which is usually less than a year) they'll be going on to beat trainers with far more experience. Heck, it's one of the reasons I haven't managed to convince myself to finish Saber's fic yet, even though I used to be an avid fan.

In fact, it peeves me so much it's even inspired me to write an OT fic myself--with the emphasis on an ordinary trainer being the protagonist. I will say no more, but stay tuned. :3

As for the use of weaponry other than pokemon themselves, I'm all for it--in fact I have used it and fully intend to continue using it in my fics. It adds an extra dimension of danger to the trainer themselves, because it means that the opposing trainer can attack instead of just commanding their pokemon--and that's in addition to the pokemon attacking people on order, which I'm also an advocate of.

So... yus. ^.^;; I actually hate myself ('myself' as in the hero I'm playing) in the games, and it kills me whenever one of the gym leaders or whoever starts praising me like there's no tomorrow. It makes me 'grrr'. Every time.

...as a random side-note, I think the 10-year-old starting age is established by the anime alone (and probably adapted by the manga, but it's been a while since I read them, so...). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the games ever mention what age you are in the beginning--everyone just calls you 'kid' or 'child' or something, which indicates it's still ridiculously young, but no exact age.

 

[Yamato-san]

I think the Red/Green/Blue/Yellow games make mention of it at the very beginning (if not, maybe it was in the instruction booklet). Not sure about the Fire Red/Leaf Green remakes, however.

 

[Dogar The Brave]

They do in G/S/C - I just restarted to check.

 

[Act]

Mostly because what I'm trying to say here is that the feelings of my characters in the here and now are not the subject of my plot.

I'm still not sure this makes sense. So basically you're saying: I completely forgo characterization because moving the plot along is what matters? *dies a little inside* Characters are for more than allowing the plot to happen. People will notice if this is their sole purpose.

I think the Red/Green/Blue/Yellow games make mention of it at the very beginning (if not, maybe it was in the instruction booklet). Not sure about the Fire Red/Leaf Green remakes, however.

I completely agree with what you said (except game canonically, I don't think there is a starting age), and also point out that R/B/Y/G were a lot... darker than their predecessors. They made more sense, and kind of had more depth. When the game really took off, the show and furture games aimed at younger age groups, and I think some of the logic of the situation was really lost.

Back to the parnethetical, though, starting age is almost entirely a show-canon thing. In fact, in the games (and even some strains of manga) getting a 'starter pokemon' at a certain age is pretty much unheard of (in one of the manga lines, pokedexes were so rarely given out that trainers who saw the protagonist with it didn't even know what they were). The protagonist in R/B/Y, then, could pretty much be any 'young' age relative to his peers. Hell, for Giovanni to call him kid, he could have been 18. It was all about marketing: the 10-year-old wa sa commodity, so they appeale to the agegroup with the show and subsequent games.

 

[Negrek]

Anyway, no matter how great a one-shot is, I can't see Ash or Misty getting together, ever, or any other shipping coming to fruition (even one I support). By the same token, I don't see the apocalypse coming anytime soon. Even if it were triggered, some ten-year-old kid is also on hand to stop it. XD (But hey, guess everyone has a different taste. I go for happy endings and suspenseful/more lighthearted themes, you people go for darker, more melancholy ones. Whatever floats yer boat, I suppose.)

Okay, so you don't agree with those opinions and don't want to read 'fic based around them... so don't. But telling other people they're wrong for writing that sort of stuff is just not on. I don't enjoy shipping, but people can ship 'til the cows come home, for all I care, and I'm not going to go and start calling shippers "unfaithful to the franchise" just because the characters in pokémon really never hook up with anyone. At least, from what I can recall of the non-game canons.

 

[Scarlet Weather]

Wait a minute, you people are going too far. I was expressing my personal opinion, not saying that it was inherently wrong to write fanfics that go a bit overboard. Anyway, time to answer a question (Yamato, I cannot believe that nobody has asked me this before). Yes, my name is pronounced "A-C-C-M", and not "Ack-M". The name is an acronym for either "Art Critic Cubone-Master" or "Art Critic Champion-Marowak". Your choice. XD

Lessee... Act, you still misunderstand me. The storyline in my fanfiction is more likely to be advanced by an event relevant to the plot (under which character growth is a sub-category) than my character feeling sad and my going off for about six paragraphs on why or the reasons. Ah... why am I even responding to this? Actually, why don't I just write something and let you review it instead of my sitting here and conducting a pointless discussion? Confession time: I don't know squat about how I write the way I do, for good or bad. I just write what I want about the people I want when I want. If I say something to you about my writing as a whole, I'm BSing bigtime. What can I say? I'm like AE- still writing one bloody fanfic. XD

As for my comment on saving the world from an apocalypse... I've got to remember that you can't read my intonation. That was supposed to be more of a joke than a serious statement. Yes, I am fully aware that ten-year-old children are normally incapable of saving the world without a helluva lot of training and/or massive backup.

 

[Scytheteen]

Any ideas on when I should post chapter 5? It's been an awful long time...

 

[Orange_Flaaffy]

I like to mix the game world and the real world :). I have heard this is done in the manga, but since I have never read the manga and don't really want to, I do not use elements from that world.
I love dealing with the limited elements of the game world in a real world way. Not so much saying who things could not be so in the real world, but how they would work if they were so. It is so interesting to offer support for things :)

 

[Grovyle42(Griff8416)]

Sweet, it's Orange Flaafy!

Anyways, I am not familiar with the manga so I basically stick the anime/games way of things (If the situation calls)

 

[TurtleKing]

Chapter 16 of Pokemon Special Manga: DP is coming soon.

Details:
-Now that Pearl has come to save Dawn, will he actually defeat Jupiter?
-Will Diamond willingly help Pearl and Dawn if they get into trouble?

 

[Negrek]

Wait a minute, you people are going too far. I was expressing my personal opinion, not saying that it was inherently wrong to write fanfics that go a bit overboard.

As for tragedy, I'm not a huge fan of writing stories all about multiple deaths and/or suicides in the Pokemon fandom. It completely violates the original tone of both games, anime, and manga. In my opinion, the tone of Pokemon needs to go no darker than Special or the average shonen manga series to be truly interesting.

Hay thar. You are expressing an opinion; it just happens to be that certain stories "completely violate the original tone" of the franchise. Which, given the rest of your post, mean that they are inherently bad. To which my reply is, essentially, "Why don't you just not read them and not go on about how they are bad just because they deal with certain subject matter that you happen to not find appropriate?"

 

[JX Valentine]

Any ideas on when I should post chapter 5? It's been an awful long time...

I'd say post it when you think it's good enough to post. As in, if you've proofread it thoroughly, and it's as complete as you want it to be, there's really nothing that should be stopping you from posting it. Go for it. *thumbs up*

 

[Scarlet Weather]

Hay thar. You are expressing an opinion; it just happens to be that certain stories "completely violate the original tone" of the franchise. Which, given the rest of your post, mean that they are inherently bad. To which my reply is, essentially, "Why don't you just not read them and not go on about how they are bad just because they deal with certain subject matter that you happen to not find appropriate?"

I didn't "Go on" about it, it was two posts. You want to see me go on, I'll give you a full page on why the standard "nothing but three pages worth of angsty screaming" doesn't work for me. >.<

As for that, I suppose you could read in those implications. You notice, however, that I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, and that I do acknowledge that it is only my personal opinion. As for "the original tone", it's a subjective term. XD

Oh, and who said that I read them? I've stopped at the first sign, after a while. I also mentioned that it's a failing of mine as a reviewer that I cannot review said material objectively because too many n00bs have used it in the past.