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Ferguson, Missouri, in unrest after shooting of unarmed teenager

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Eh, just because the police weren't aware that Brown was a robbery suspect doesn't mean that Brown didn't freak out and think he was going to be arrested for it. Criminals do stupid things in the prescence of law enforcement.

You keep coming in here posting conjecture and speculation and repeatedly fail to provide any evidence for your claims. How can you not see that this is unreasonable?

As for your second paragraph, yet again trying to justify murder with stereotyping. Who makes the decisions based on someone's personality whether they deserve life or death, whether they deserve understanding or alienation? We are not God. Nobody has this right. We continue to debate whether capital punishment is okay even if the crime is murder. There should be no debate at all as to whether it's okay for minor crimes, or if it's okay to be dealt without trial, yet you people continue to do so. Even worse, you say it's okay based on someone's character.

Just admit it was wrong, it was murder. The police should not have this right, and strictly speaking they don't! But criminals like Darren Wilson continue to get away with it! Just because people think it's okay for a cop, even when it isn't legal.
 
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Keiran

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Eh, just because the police weren't aware that Brown was a robbery suspect doesn't mean that Brown didn't freak out and think he was going to be arrested for it. Criminals do stupid things in the prescence of law enforcement.

Today I learned that fearing for your life makes you a criminal.

I agree with the video Phantom posted, the blame cannot solely be placed on the police. Nobody has mentioned black ghetto culture idolising violence, drugs and disrespecting the police. If you want your treatment to change perhaps black people of influence (namely rappers) should stop encouraging thuggish behaviour.

What on earth is "black ghetto culture"? There were no homicides in Ferguson in 2014 until Mike Brown's murder and the area is mostly black. What are you trying to say....? It's weird how libertarians are against militarized police until it's black people that they're terrorizing. (also it's mostly white anarchists being violent and looting at these protests so I'm really having trouble understanding exactly whose culture is being too violent)

Seeing that store robbery video highlights Mike Browns size and attitude, using intimidation to get away with a misdemeanour. Jaywalking and shoplifting is not worth death but it goes to the individuals character as him being a person that has no consideration for other human beings.

Pretty sure both the store & their lawyer have stated he never robbed the store. Fox news had interviewed the lawyer & cut him off in the middle of him disproving their smear campaign.
 

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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Today I learned that fearing for your life makes you a criminal.



What on earth is "black ghetto culture"? There were no homicides in Ferguson in 2014 until Mike Brown's murder and the area is mostly black. What are you trying to say....? It's weird how libertarians are against militarized police until it's black people that they're terrorizing. (also it's mostly white anarchists being violent and looting at these protests so I'm really having trouble understanding exactly whose culture is being too violent)



Pretty sure both the store & their lawyer have stated he never robbed the store. Fox news had interviewed the lawyer & cut him off in the middle of him disproving their smear campaign.

Libertarians? Isn't that generalizing them. Also some of the more popular Libertarians such as Rand Paul have spoken out against the racial aspects of this case along with the militarization of the Police.

Also I think we should allow the courts do it's job. Some here seem to be too quick to make judgements (one way or the other).
 
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Also I think we should allow the courts do it's job.

Except they aren't. This is the problem. Nothing has happened to Darren Wilson. Nothing has happened to countless cops who have murdered black people. Meanwhile if they attack a white person, something does happen. This is the problem. This is why there is unrest. This is why it is a race issue. Are you people even listening? I know you aren't. The government sure isn't. It's the same issue for decades and nothing is done and people still say the same thing time and time again with no change. It's exasperating.
 

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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Except they aren't. This is the problem. Nothing has happened to Darren Wilson. Nothing has happened to countless cops who have murdered black people. Meanwhile if they attack a white person, something does happen. This is the problem. This is why there is unrest. This is why it is a race issue. Are you people even listening? I know you aren't. The government sure isn't. It's the same issue for decades and nothing is done and people still say the same thing time and time again with no change. It's exasperating.

Who are you referring to when you say "you" people?

I'm have confidence something will happen (not sure about the outcome, nor do I want to make any judgments before all the facts are placed on the table). Though you got a point in that other cases similar to it may not get that privileged due to lack of national attention unless something is done. Btw even when cops murder Whites, Latinos, Asians, etc. they don't always get punished.
 

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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Nothing deserves to happen to him until a thorough investigation has been completed and the findings relayed to a prosecutor. Even then, if there are reasonable grounds to charge him with a crime (there may not be) he is entitled to a legal defence and disputing the charges laid against him. He may walk free, if that's what evidence and testimony suggests should happen. Angry mobs should not have any influence over the justice system.

Every case is unique. One innocent policeman does not deserve to go to prison because the 1000 guilty ones before him walked free. Darren Wilson is deserving of being treated with the "innocent until proven guilty" premise. Not being made a puppet to sate people who would otherwise have a tantrum and break the law in these "protests". Social justice warriors have no place in playing internet detective, angelicising someone who died as an excuse to vindicate their hatred of authority. I haven't played off anything I've stated as fact, just possibilities, unlike you and Grey Wind. Why don't we just appoint the angry crowds to the position of judge, jury and executioner, that'll bring justice! -_-

It's not the realm of public opinion that decides whether a man is guilty of murder. Protests of injustice are premature, unproven and biased.

Why do I defend the police officer? Not because I'm 100% sure that he's innocent, i'm not. But I have an understanding that sometimes the use of firearms is necessary in law enforcement, as well as police action against large, unruly crowds. I see the necessity of police departments existing and having those capabilities.

It certainly does feel like some people are out to lynch the guy. It reminds me of how Whites in the past would do that to Blacks even though most of the times said Blacks were innocent (even in the cases where they weren't innocent it was still wrong, especially since in several cases they would get them out of jail and kill the person). It's not as extreme but there is that kind of aura surrounding this case.

Also keep in mind not all of the protests are violent. The majority are peaceful. Sadly these rioters are shifting the attention towards them, rather than on the actually case. I feel most of those rioting and looting aren't genuine. The true genuine protesters are those protesting peacefully.
 
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Nothing deserves to happen to him until a thorough investigation has been completed and the findings relayed to a prosecutor.
People aren't looking for him to be immediately thrown in jail, they're looking for a proper investigation instead of the bs cover ups the police have been doing so far. Considering the amount of conflicting information they've released ("he was a suspect in a robbery... oh actually he was jayalking, THEN a suspect... oh actually there was no robbery) it doesn't look like any internal investigation they do will come to much.

The PD are also the ones behind the gofundme apparently lol.


It certainly does feel like some people are out to lynch the guy. It reminds me of how Whites in the past would do that to Blacks even though most of the times said Blacks were innocent (even in the cases where they weren't innocent it was still wrong, especially since in several cases they would get them out of jail and kill the person). It's not as extreme but there is that kind of aura surrounding this case.
Are you for real did you seriously just compare the mass lynching of black people to people wanting a murderer to be arrested.
 
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Phantom1

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That's the thing though, they're not DOING an investigation. They're still hung up on charging Mike Brown with something. "Let the courts do their work" would be all well and good if he was actually facing trial. If justice was going to be served he would have been arrested and his trial would be taking place, but instead he's STILL on paid leave, and the police department don't seem to keen on investigating anything considering they're the ones behind the support Darren Wilson gofundme.

And how do you know there isn't an investigation going on? Tell me, where you got that amazing information confirmed?! Because hell, you should share your source with the press, they'd have a FIELD DAY with that one.

The legal system is a long and lengthy process. If he is to be put to court for this, it most likely won't be for months and months, hell a year even.

As for him being on paid leave, he is innocent until proven guilty in court. All cops go on paid leave for a death on the job. And what does a gofundme have to do with anything?! A website has nothing to do with the investigation. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So a gofundme was started for some reason, that does not impede the progress of an investigation. It has jack to do with it. And regular cops would not be the ones doing the investigation, it would be detectives or higher officials within the department, hell it probably is being done federally by the FBI, so honestly, gofundme? No.

The OJ Simpson trial took nine freaking months. Yet these protestors want Wilson given to them so they can deal their vigilante justice. The ACTUAL justice system takes fraking forever to get across. Months of preparation. Months. You can't expect it to move any faster just because of the severity, in your mind, of the case.

And metafilter is your link? Honestly? Use a fudging real legit news or journal. Holy Hannah, really? Here, why don't you just post the onion, it'll be just as helpful to your argument. Those are NOT SOURCES. They are about as legit as using Wikipedia on your thesis.

Also, a bunch of edits, payback.

Also
Are you for real did you seriously just compare the mass lynching of black people to people wanting a murderer to be arrested.

That is not in any way, shape or FORM what they said. English is your first language, right?

What they SAID was that the crowd does seem like they want the guy dragged out and lynched in town square. He then said that it was like how white people used to call out blacks for things they hadn't been tried for.

Get off your social justice crusader high horse, mate.

This discussion has gotten so stupid I cannot.

Yes, it has.
 
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I'm not sure what you two were expecting......

In fact I'm a little bit disappointed that other members didn't come crawling out of the woodwork


Angry mobs, okay mate we've already explained that's not what it is, but okay. Except that's not all there is, there's evidence and eyewitness testimonies. If it's Mike Brown all we need is the assumption he was a thug then it's okay to shoot him. If it's Darren then we need several weeks of "evidence gathering" before anything happens, meanwhile let's put him on paid leave, seems fair to me.

"he is entitled to a legal defence and disputing the charges laid against him." Nobody has said otherwise lol

"Darren Wilson is deserving of being treated with the "innocent until proven guilty" premise." but the same doesn't apply to Mike Brown right?

"angelicising someone who died" so saying that he didn't deserve to die is "angelicising", no it's called basic human rights mate.

There wouldn't be an "angry mob" if justice was served. There is protest because like many before him nothing is going to happen to him. Because he's getting funds in support over the fact he killed someone, what are these funds for? who knows

Who are you referring to when you say "you" people?

I'm have confidence something will happen (not sure about the outcome, nor do I want to make any judgments before all the facts are placed on the table). Though you got a point in that other cases similar to it may not get that privileged due to lack of national attention unless something is done. Btw even when cops murder Whites, Latinos, Asians, etc. they don't always get punished.

I'm referring to everyone who is against the people of Ferguson.
You have confidence? based on what, the police force have shown nothing to suggest they're going to take action, they've done the opposite.
I know that there are cases with other ethnicities, but does it happen as often?
 
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OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

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People aren't looking for him to be immediately thrown in jail, they're looking for a proper investigation instead of the bs cover ups the police have been doing so far. Considering the amount of conflicting information they've released ("he was a suspect in a robbery... oh actually he was jayalking, THEN a suspect... oh actually there was no robbery) it doesn't look like any internal investigation they do will come to much.

The PD are also the ones behind the gofundme apparently lol.



Are you for real did you seriously just compare the mass lynching of black people to people wanting a murderer to be arrested.
I was comparing the lynching that had to do with people claiming someone was guilty before giving them a proper trial that happened to black people at the hands of white people. Not all the lynchings, just particular group of them.

@ Gold I think Limerent is trying to saying is that some people are already labeling him a murder. Actually Grey's post provides an example of that.
My confidence mostly rest at the attention revolving around this case.

Something related to the justice system in this country and race that I don't think get's much attention (like how police on minority shootings weren't given much attention prior to this): The fact that Black people are more likely to be executed than white people, even if they committed the same crimes.
 
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I think this reddit post is relevant to the topic at hand:

As for the topic, it's one I am very interested in and one that I have thought quite a bit about. Now, I am a police officer in Germany as well and I have never been to the US in my adult life, so my experiences come entirely from interactions with US citizens in person or online, as well as reading about the topic. This of course means you might want to take them with a grain of salt. Anyway, here are my thoughts on it:

Germany and the USA, while on the surface quite similar (both western, christian, wealthy industrial nations), are in fact vastly different culturally.

The USA is a very young nation and it was literally born out of revolution and war. The fight against an oppressive government and oppressive people has shaped and defined your nation and a distrust of government is one of the big pillars of your culture. Additionally the USA, in my opinion, has a somewhat violent and aggressive culture, some might call it a 'Wild West spirit'. I think most US citizens would generally agree with the sentiment that a 'real American' does not take any ****, stands up for himself and would rather take someone's life or give up his own than have someone tread on him or his rights ('My home is my castle', 'From my cold, dead hands').

I have found that American citizens are much more prone to support vigilante justice, even if that 'justice' comes in the form of deadly force. A while ago, I posted an article on /r/ProtectAndServe[1] about a shooting at a courthouse in my city. A man shot and stabbed two people to death who were accused of seriously injuring the man and killing his brother in a rather shady car trafficking deal gone wrong.

I expected most people to react with the same disgust I felt at someone taking the law in his own hands like that. Instead, everyone supported the man and congratulated him on killing those two men.

I feel this comes down to the 'Wild West spirit' I mentioned before, which is also evident in your outrageous prison sentences and insane monetary compensation for suing people.

I feel like many Americans have a 'If they **** up, **** em' attitude. Did you know that the media in Germany are not allowed to show pictures of people arrested or accused of crimes, not even after they have been convicted? They aren't even allowed to print their full names. Why? Because our society feels that even someone who has commited crimes still has a right to privacy. How is someone going to reintegrate into society after their sentence is served if everyone in their city knows they have been arrested?

'If they **** up, **** em'. 'If they **** up, fire em' 'If they **** up, plaster their picture all over the evening news'. 'If they **** up, put em in prison for the rest of their life'. 'If they **** up, sue them for all they got (or more)'.

And of course the US' fascination with guns plays a role in your violent society, but it is not the cause. To say that would be to simplify the problem.

The guns only enhance the problem, they exponentiate it. Give a violent society the means to be even more violent and you'll end up with murder rates like in Africa's failed states or South American dictatorships.

Every US cop knows about this culture of violence, they all know about the inherent distrust of the government. They all know that the threat to their life a real one. You join the Academy and suddenly that threat seems even more real. You are more aware of stories like those officers getting shot in the head while eating lunch. You watch the video of Deputy Dinkheller dying a lonely death behind his patrol car because he hesitated instead of shooting. Your brothers are getting killed out there, every week it seems. It could be you, next time.

When I go on patrol, sure I worry about being confronted with a gun. But it's a theoretical fear. I have never even seen a live gun on the streets, even though I work in a city with one of the highest crime rates in this country. I do get confronted with violence, don't get me wrong. I've been threatened with razor blades, knives, bottles. I have been assaulted, I've been injured. I was recently on three weeks of sick leave from an injury I got during a resist.

But I do not have to assume that there is a realistic chance that a good part of the people I'll meet today are armed with firearms and that a part of those are actually willing to kill me to get away.

Another reason for that is the difference in prison sentences. If I was a drug dealer in the US and I had 20 pounds of coke in my trunk when a cop stops me for a broken taillight, I'd seriously calculate my chances of killing him and getting away. There is simply no reason for me to do that in Germany. The prison sentences are laughable here. It's just not worth it. If they arrest me with the coke here, I do two, maybe three years. If I kill a cop, I get 15 years minimum. It's just not worth it. And while I, just as many other officers in Germany, get frustrated with the lax prison sentences, I do realize that they are a big part of what makes my job so safe compared to the US. Almost all of the people that do get shot by the Police in Germany are mentally unstable, hardly any of them are real criminals.

Any US officer grew up in this culture. In Germany, if I was searching for someone who I was told had a gun and I'd find someone matching the description and he started reaching in his waistband, I wouldn't shoot him. I'd wait until I actually saw the gun. Simply because the chance that he actually has a real gun is so, so low. If I was an officer in the US and I had grown up there, that guy'd be dead as soon as he reached.

Another thing is that officers here always ride in pairs, everywhere. If I was in rural bum****, Alabama and I had to stop a car in the dead of night in the middle of nowhere, you can bet your ass I'd have my gun out as soon as I left my car.

I do think that our mental healthcare system here is better. Police officers can forcibly commit anyone to a psychiatric facility for 24 hours if they feel he is a threat to himself or others. And free healthcare makes it easy for people to go see a doctor if they feel they have mental problems. Plus if they do lose it, it's much harder for them to get a gun. But of course some of them do slip through the cracks, as I mentioned above, most people who do get shot by the police here are mentally unstable.

And I'm not entirely sure why (it probably has to do with WWII, as does almost anything in the modern German society), but police officers here will do most anything to avoid shooting someone. A few years ago on new years eve, there was a guy trying to commit suicide by cop in my city. He pulled a gun on an officer and yelled that he'd kill her. What did she do? She withdrew behind a car, tried to convince him to put the gun down, fired a warning shot and only when he actually aimed the gun at her did she shoot. One shot, in the leg. And they arrested him alive.

I am not trying to make the officers here look more heroic or the one's in the US look like bloodthirsty killers. It is different societies.

Remember: Everyone is shaped by their enviroment and the culture and society they grow up in. And it's easy to blame the violent and militant US cops for the amount of shootings, but I'm sure most of you American citizens would react exactly the same in their position.

tl;dr: No tl;dr, this took me a lot of time to write, you can take a bit of time to read it goddamnit!

source: http://np.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comme...american_police_use_deadly_force_much/cjpgcbe
 

Oryx

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I find that comment interesting because it talks about the culture shaping the citizens but ignores entirely that culture also shapes police officers. So citizens are violent and aggressive and that must be why police officers react the way they do, not because police officers are also citizens and therefore have just the same chance to be violent or aggressive, if not more since they actively chose a profession where they have to regularly get into violent confrontations?
 

Nah

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I find that comment interesting because it talks about the culture shaping the citizens but ignores entirely that culture also shapes police officers. So citizens are violent and aggressive and that must be why police officers react the way they do, not because police officers are also citizens and therefore have just the same chance to be violent or aggressive, if not more since they actively chose a profession where they have to regularly get into violent confrontations?
Really? Seemed to me like the person was talking about both citizens and police.
 
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I find that comment interesting because it talks about the culture shaping the citizens but ignores entirely that culture also shapes police officers. So citizens are violent and aggressive and that must be why police officers react the way they do, not because police officers are also citizens and therefore have just the same chance to be violent or aggressive, if not more since they actively chose a profession where they have to regularly get into violent confrontations?

I wouldn't say that it ignores culture shaping police officers. Read it again, but don't be so critical about it.
 

Oryx

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I wouldn't say that it ignores culture shaping police officers. Read it again, but don't be so critical about it.

This is an unfair assumption. I read it multiple times before I formed an opinion on it. The comment says US cops "know about" this culture, not that they participate in it. That entire paragraph was not about how police are part of the culture, but about how the culture is threatening them. It then talks about the willingness of a citizen to kill, never mentioning the willingness of a police officer to kill except as "their killing is justifiable because citizens are so violent". Literally the whole point of the comment was to justify why police shoot American citizens.
 
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jesus christ now we have Reddit pseudo-intellectualism on here, good luck oryx, you're on your own with this one

@ Gold I think Limerent is trying to saying is that some people are already labeling him a murder. Actually Grey's post provides an example of that.
My confidence mostly rest at the attention revolving around this case.

Something related to the justice system in this country and race that I don't think get's much attention (like how police on minority shootings weren't given much attention prior to this): The fact that Black people are more likely to be executed than white people, even if they committed the same crimes.
Because he is a murderer lol, please tell me what Mike Brown did that meant he deserved to be killed. Nobody has done this yet. If there's no good reason, then it's murder, simple as.

Your second sentence I don't fully understand. At first glance, it seems like you're agreeing about institutional racism? I really hope this is the case.
 

Keiran

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I don't think most American citizens, even most cops, would react to someone that has their hands up in surrender by shooting them 6 times and killing them.
 
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This is an unfair assumption. I read it multiple times before I formed an opinion on it. The comment says US cops "know about" this culture, not that they participate in it. That entire paragraph was not about how police are part of the culture, but about how the culture is threatening them. It then talks about the willingness of a citizen to kill, never mentioning the willingness of a police officer to kill except as "their killing is justifiable because citizens are so violent". Literally the whole point of the comment was to justify why police shoot American citizens.

This is an unfair assumption. I didn't say you didn't read it multiple times.
 
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