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Is Pokemon Anime Ruined

UltimateFrosty08

THE DAB MAN
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    Ok I know not all of you agree with this but in my Opinion they have ruined Pokemon since well Black and White Pokemon has been my life since I was four and I still watch the show but when I watch it I don't see the old show I used to know but a ruined sequal in my opinion Seasons 1-5 have been the best Seasons 6-13 have been good but seasons 14-18 just made it get horrible

    You all may not think the same way but at least 90% of us does think that its worst than the Original I think we should discuss why its worse than the Original can they fix it and more importantly what can fix this.

    Any Ideas
     
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    If 90% of people thought the Pokemon anime was crap, it wouldn't be airing right now.

    The Japanese ratings right now, plus the box office receipts and even the merchandising sales would indicate that 90% of viewers DO think it's crap, or at the very least it's getting there.
     

    machomuu

    Stuck in Hot Girl Summer
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    The Japanese ratings right now, plus the box office receipts and even the merchandising sales would indicate that 90% of viewers DO think it's crap, or at the very least it's getting there.
    It being on track to that point makes sense. But 90% of people currently thinking so wouldn't have the show greenlit for another season. It'd be far too much of a liability and they would be losing far more than they make.
     

    Lizardo

    Public Enemy
  • 290
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    • Seen Aug 18, 2016
    I tend to find that Pocket Monsters is only "ruined" if you ever bought into the idea of it being more than a mediocre children's show with a thin storyline, simple characters, and formulaic episodes. For certain posters here who actually believe the original series was anything more than pretty-enjoyable-but-ultimately-disposable fluff that's just not possible. Thus, you can't enjoy much of anything past that.

    I will always have my issues with the anime, but I like to think that I've come to a point where I don't take it seriously enough for idiotic plot developments, inconsistent characterization, and poor writing to ruin it as a whole for me. Because those have been a part of this anime from day one.
     

    Pinkie-Dawn

    Vampire Waifu
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    Aren't you that guy who hated that Pikachu special for "ruining" Pikachu? I didn't take that thread seriously, so why should I take this one serious as well? The anime is about the journey, not the destination.

    lol @ 90%

    also XY is pretty damn good like
    do you even remember johto? all that shitty filler and no character development. also, the animation now is hella good. definitely far more watchable than most of pokeani history

    XY would've actually been better than what it currently is if Goodra was still around and Serena kept her long hair.
     
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    I tend to find that Pocket Monsters is only "ruined" if you ever bought into the idea of it being more than a mediocre children's show with a thin storyline, simple characters, and formulaic episodes. For certain posters here who actually believe the original series was anything more than pretty-enjoyable-but-ultimately-disposable fluff that's just not possible. Thus, you can't enjoy much of anything past that.

    I will always have my issues with the anime, but I like to think that I've come to a point where I don't take it seriously enough for idiotic plot developments, inconsistent characterization, and poor writing to ruin it as a whole for me. Because those have been a part of this anime from day one.

    Yeah, actually, there actually WAS a huge effort in trying to make the Anime appeal more than just the Barney and Friends, Sesame Street, or DragonTales groups way back in the day. Not many children's shows, mediocre or otherwise, deal with issues like parental abandonment (Brock, Misty to some extent), nearly being killed in a sunken ship as well as starving at sea (Pokémon Shipwreck), death, existentialism (Mewtwo Movie) and the like. Not to mention you'd have to be hard-pressed to claim that Barney and Friends ever had something like Beauty and the Beach. AG started with the whole catering only to tots, and even THEN they tried to push sexuality of ten year old girls starting with May.

    @Pinkie-Dawn: Not to mention giving Serena an ACTUAL goal and not waiting until about the halfway point to even give her an actual goal (not to mention go without capturing a single Pokémon for a needlessly long period of time). Seriously, Serena's probably the second person to not have any reason to be on a journey at all (the other being May who flat out hated Pokémon). Don't know about this Pikachu special you're referring to, though. Do you mean "Pikachu's Goodbye?"
     
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    deal with issues like nearly being killed in a sunken ship as well as starving at sea
    In what world is this a relatable issue that needs to be "dealt with" on a kid's show...


    I agree with Lizardo. Most people who try and argue the show is "ruined" nowadays are blinded by nostalgia, and beyond the more goofy side of OS, there's really nothing there that makes it objectively better than later sagas. I wish those who've gotten tired of the show would grow up and move on instead of constantly complaining about it. I really don't see the point.
     
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    In what world is this a relatable issue that needs to be "dealt with" on a kid's show...


    I agree with Lizardo. Most people who try and argue the show is "ruined" nowadays are blinded by nostalgia, and beyond the more goofy side of OS, there's really nothing there that makes it objectively better than later sagas. I wish those who've gotten tired of the show would grow up and move on instead of constantly complaining about it. I really don't see the point.

    Actually, I'm not "blinded by nostalgia." In fact, I rewatched the Kanto episodes just recently, and they actually WERE pretty good. And I have a near-eidetic memory, so by definition I CAN'T be blinded by nostalgia since that implies I have a bad memory and am not remembering things right. And even if I hated Pokémon long ago, I still would have given the same answer. Besides, I could easily call you and Lizardo nihilists, because from what I can tell, that's EXACTLY how you're behaving (thinking that the show was never good, like how Kefka found it irrelevant whether it was a living thing or an inanimate object that was destroyed since it didn't matter in the end).

    Though I'll humor you. Name me five kids shows (and by "kids show", I mean something on the level of "Barney and Friends", "Sesame Street", "Dragon Tales", and the like that is geared to REALLY young kids since that's what you and Lizardo seemed to imply) that deals with broken households, existentialism, death, being lost at sea, and other serious topics, or includes stuff like a bikini party and inflatable boobs? Was Pokémon even in the earlier episodes a family show? Yes, it was. But it was NOT merely a "kids show."

    And the reason why I cited those things is because kids shows generally DON'T deal with that kind of stuff, hence it is NOT a kids show. A family show, yes, but NOT a kids show, they are two different things. A family show actually TRIES to have everyone of all ages watch, while a kids show generally targets children only, not caring if adults watch. Takeshi Shudo even explicitly mentioned that Pokémon was supposed to appeal to all ages rather than JUST kids.

    One last thing, I can cite flaws from the original series, so that proves I'm not nostalgic (nostalgic people would think that it was flawless and forget any flaws it might have had, no matter how glaring). But even with it's flaws, the original series is STILL better than the other series. Only DP so far has even come close to actually matching the original series.
     
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    Lizardo

    Public Enemy
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    Sesame Street is a far more important and intelligent show than any era of Pocket Monsters could ever dream of being (https://www.newsweek.com/how-sesame-street-changed-world-80067), just saying. And to suggest that it didn't or doesn't deal with heavy topics just shows how little you know about it. Here's an example of Sesame Street tackling death (one of its most famous episodes), and it does so with far more nuance than Pocket Monsters ever addressed everything: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxlj4Tk83xQ. It's not even a fair comparison either, because the aims of Sesame Street and Pocket Monsters are entirely different.

    I don't care about what age group the OS was aimed at or what topics it addresses, I care about quality. And, quality-wise, the OS - and Pocket Monsters in general - is nothing special, especially when compared to other children's shows that manage to be enjoyable for adults (btw, I can't think of a lot adults back when the OS was airing who truly enjoyed the series and though it was anything more than a stupid fad). Here are five, just off the top of my head: Gravity Falls, Batman: TAS (excepting the brief time it aired in primetime), SpongeBob SquarePants, (Seasons 1-3, the first movie), Avatar: the Last Airbender, Steven Universe. These are considered children's shows, they're also far better than the OS. Granted, not exactly fair comparisons but neither is trying to compare the OS to ****ing Barney and Friends.

    But again, your nostalgia goggles are thick and you lack the self-awareness to realize that. To be "blinded by nostalgia" has nothing to do with how recently you viewed the series. It's a mindset. A mindset that prevents you from properly evaluating the pros and cons of what you enjoy because you've never gotten past the way it impacted you as a child. The most rabid OS fans (or fans of any long-running series, for that matter) can rarely point to anything tangible about what makes it better than other series. Instead it's all about things like "genuine emotion", "it was funnier", "I just feel", "it had heart", etc. Things that can't be argued because they depend on the subjective feelings of the person watching it, rather than honest critical evaluation. That's what it means to be blinded by nostalgia.

    I mean, when you refuse to watch future series out of spite because the writers didn't cater to your demands to bring back a certain OS character there's no other explanation other than being blinded by nostalgia. And that wouldn't even be so bad, except you seem to have made it a mission to ruin every other discussion on here so that everyone else sees it too.

    Quit making idiotic comparisons (nihilism? Really? Because I recognize the OS really isn't that good?) and learn to properly evaluate your favorite shows.
     
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    Sesame Street is a far more important and intelligent show than any era of Pocket Monsters could ever dream of being (https://www.newsweek.com/how-sesame-street-changed-world-80067), just saying. And to suggest that it didn't or doesn't deal with heavy topics just shows how little you know about it. Here's an example of Sesame Street tackling death (one of its most famous episodes), and it does so with far more nuance than Pocket Monsters ever addressed everything: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxlj4Tk83xQ. It's not even a fair comparison either, because the aims of Sesame Street and Pocket Monsters are entirely different.

    I don't care about what age group the OS was aimed at or what topics it addresses, I care about quality. And, quality-wise, the OS - and Pocket Monsters in general - is nothing special, especially when compared to other children's shows that manage to be enjoyable for adults (btw, I can't think of a lot adults back when the OS was airing who truly enjoyed the series and though it was anything more than a stupid fad). Here are five, just off the top of my head: Gravity Falls, Batman: TAS (excepting the brief time it aired in primetime), SpongeBob SquarePants, (Seasons 1-3, the first movie), Avatar: the Last Airbender, Steven Universe. These are considered children's shows, they're also far better than the OS. Granted, not exactly fair comparisons but neither is trying to compare the OS to ****ing Barney and Friends.

    But again, your nostalgia goggles are thick and you lack the self-awareness to realize that. To be "blinded by nostalgia" has nothing to do with how recently you viewed the series. It's a mindset. A mindset that prevents you from properly evaluating the pros and cons of what you enjoy because you've never gotten past the way it impacted you as a child. The most rabid OS fans (or fans of any long-running series, for that matter) can rarely point to anything tangible about what makes it better than other series. Instead it's all about things like "genuine emotion", "it was funnier", "I just feel", "it had heart", etc. Things that can't be argued because they depend on the subjective feelings of the person watching it, rather than honest critical evaluation. That's what it means to be blinded by nostalgia.

    I mean, when you refuse to watch future series out of spite because the writers didn't cater to your demands to bring back a certain OS character there's no other explanation other than being blinded by nostalgia. And that wouldn't even be so bad, except you seem to have made it a mission to ruin every other discussion on here so that everyone else sees it too.

    Quit making idiotic comparisons (nihilism? Really? Because I recognize the OS really isn't that good?) and learn to properly evaluate your favorite shows.

    Those examples you've listed are actually considered to be family shows, not children shows (not to mention in regards to B:TAS or the DCAU in general, technically, I'm not even sure if it was actually geared towards kids or even families, more like teens. At least, that's what Bruce Timm indicated). There's a world of difference between the two, as family shows are actually geared to people of all ages while children shows are geared to... well, very young kids. Also, I actually WATCHED Sesame Street when I was younger (heck, I even preferred it over Barney and Friends, which I only really watched because a friend of mine liked it). Though, fine, Sesame Street did cover death. That's one out of five (Maybe two out of five, if we count Arthur and the episode where DW's pigeon died). We've still got three-four more examples to be cited. And let me tell you, even Sesame Street did NOT deal with being trapped in a shipwreck, nearly starving out at sea, either owner or parental abandonment, existential angst, and all of that, while Pokémon DID cover all of those things and more (if anything, the deep existentialist views in the first movie was the reason why they actually had to dial it back for the second movie). I might as well state that I thought SpongeBob Squarepants was very poor in quality.

    And I do properly evaluate shows. I know that even the OS has some flaws. For instance, Ash cheaply losing the Indigo League due to Team Rocket kidnapping him. Also how half of Ash's badges didn't even have him actually WIN against the Gym Leader. Plus Ash releasing Pokémon and not following up with any promises to actually meet them again (exempting Primeape, although only because Ash DIDN'T promise anything about that, not in the Japanese version at least). Heck, Beauty and the Beach itself would qualify as a flaw as well, especially when it seemed really out of place for a family show. That shows I CAN properly evaluate the show, know what flaws it had and what flaws it didn't have. Despite its flaws however, and the fact that I CAN acknowledge its flaws proves I'm NOT being nostalgic at all, it was STILL better than the series after it. Even you can't deny that.

    And BTW, it's not an idiotic comparison, really, because you're basically claiming that Pokémon was never good at all, that all seasons were no different than the other in terms of mediocrity, which is definitely not an apt statement at all and falls closer to nihilism. Nihilism is the belief that nothing really matters, that there's no real difference or worth to anything. So regarding Pokémon, yes, you are DEFINITELY a nihilist.

    And I'm definitely not "nostalgic" about the series. In fact, I have a near-eidetic memory, and being "nostalgic" basically implies that I'm not even remembering the series as well as I should, and I in fact DO remember the series very well (the ones I've seen anyway), down to the tiniest details. And I'd say this even if I outright hated the original series. And to prove that I'm self-aware enough to know what nostalgia means, I'll even state WHAT I'm nostalgic about: Disney's Beauty and the Beast, Belle in particular, because I honestly wish I could like Belle again and trust her, long for a day that I was back in childhood where I looked up to her, rather than feeling a huge amount of distrust towards Belle thanks to horrific College professors who think just because they have a degree in teaching, they can push any leftist agenda of their choosing (and some commentary and design notes from Linda Woolverton and the staff don't help either), not to mention connecting the French Revolution to Beauty and the Beast's timeline and being disturbed by the resulting implication that Belle, assuming she doesn't die from the Jacobins, joins them due to her bookworm nature resulting in her buying into Rousseau and the other Philosophes' "logic". So yes, I DO have enough self-awareness to know WHEN I am nostalgic, and I'll tell you that my saying the original series was good was DEFINITELY not out of nostalgia.

    And for the record, Takeshi Shudo viewed it specifically as a family show, NOT a children's show, and plenty of others have demonstrated how it's not even close to being bad, including DBZFan. And I AM coming up with this objectively, without any emotion backing me (actually, even before the boycott, heck, even BEFORE I learned Misty was removed and the reasons why, I was afraid of even REWATCHING Pokémon because I thought people would call me a "baby" for watching it, same with Disney, all thanks to what Arthur often does with DW regarding Mary Moo Cow, and what he himself experienced when he watched Love Ducks, and it's a trauma I haven't exactly gotten over even WITH my rewatching the DVD sets for Kanto, my watching all five movies a few years back, AND my watching all of the Johto episodes [barely missing one episode only because of a long wait at Barnes and Noble for summer reading] during the marathon leading up to DP's premiere in the US. In other words, IF I were to go by it emotionally, I'd agree with you.).

    And another thing, Star Trek was also a fad, yet look how it's doing. So no, its decrease in ratings and quality has absolutely nothing to do with it being a fad that ended. Also, even if it wins, say, a Nickelodeon Kid's Choice Award, that DOESN'T mean it's actually a kids show. Remember, Gotham, of all shows, won that award, even though it was clearly not even close to being suitable for kids or even families.

    And I can cite actual, tangible elements to the original series that actually DO make it better than any of its succeeding shows. For instance, the Gym Leaders were actually TREATED as being difficult in a way that was to be expected, especially when Ash at the time was supposed to be a rookie trainer just starting out, and his Pokémon was starting out as well. In future shows, they generally make the Gym Leaders either seem no different from JJM in terms of skill level, maybe barely stronger but not by much (AG and even BW to some extent was especially guilty of this), or it makes Ash and Pikachu look very bad by comparison (DP and XY have this sort of problem). It also did NOT rely on level resets for any of the Pokémon Ash had on hand either, OR for Ash himself. And we also get an actual natural progression of how well Ash was doing, while with other series, they either just have Ash going through the region and barely mentioning his prior ranks, or basically treats one of his few accomplishments as a joke (like with Battle Frontier and how Ash lost to Gary despite the latter being retired from Pokémon training. Yes, you can cite Orange Islands as well, but at least there, one can reasonably assume that Gary underwent training with his Pokémon in anticipation of the Johto league.), and in the case of Best Wishes, they have him flunk a league without even showing anything to make up for it. Probably the closest any series has gotten to Original Series level was DP, and even then it didn't exactly work out too well (especially when more than a few times they treated Paul as just doing a different style of training when in actuality it was closer to his being abusive, little different from Damian from the original series. Gary did have similar mindsets to Paul regarding capturing Pokémon, true, but at least he actually CARED for his Pokémon rather than viewing them as tools (and please don't give me the whole "his own Pokémon would have turned against him if he was abusive" schtick, because I can assure you that Damian also had lots of Pokémon under his belt, and none of them actually turned against him either, not to mention technically one Pokémon DID turn against him, Infernape). Not to mention Paul being treated well and sometimes treating Ash as being in the wrong, if anything, actually violated a core message of Pokémon, which is that Pokémon are not supposed to be treated as simply tools.). I can also point out that in the original series, the characters HAD a reason for joining up with Ash for the saga or even travelling at all. Misty wanted to be a Water Pokémon Master to prove herself to her sisters and be more than in their shadow, and her reason for joining Ash, at least in terms of a pretense, had to deal with her bike being ruined. And Brock joined Ash in order to repay him to effectively allowing him to pursue his dreams. Even Tracey mainly joined up because of Professor Oak. They had more of a reason than the future main characters to be honest, and to some extent Brock in later series (especially DP, where the only reason he rejoined Ash was because the truck driver he was with turned out to have a significant other and was planning on just hitting the road with her). May, for instance, hated Pokémon, and as such had no REAL reason for even entering a Pokémon journey at all, let alone travelling with Ash. And Dawn, while she DID admittedly have a reason for actually going on a journey, didn't really have any real reason for travelling with Ash (though I suppose Ash letting her join to repay her for saving Pikachu would work...). And Iris and Dent didn't really have much reason to join Ash. They might have a reason for journeying in itself, but they really don't have a reason for joining Ash specifically. Clemont did at least initially have an excuse for travelling with Ash since his gym was taken over by a programmed-all-too-well Robot, but beyond that, he really didn't have a reason to continue even AFTER the problem was fixed. And Serena probably had even LESS of a good reason to travel than May. Oh, and they don't have Ash merely dumping his current team at Oak's lab to undergo a "fresh start" between regions, which basically conflicts with the bonding with your team message (in fact, of the original team, only Bulbasaur and Snorlax actually GOT placed in Oak's lab after Orange Islands. Squirtle rejoined the Squirtle Squad, and Charizard underwent training at Charcific Valley). Not to mention the individual Pokémon actually DID get a reason for being left behind beyond "hey, it's a new region, so why not." The closest we've gotten to Pokémon of Ash's that actually HAD a reason for leaving post-OS was his Aipom and his Goodra, and the latter was done so poorly most people are complaining about it.
     
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    UltimateFrosty08

    THE DAB MAN
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    Guys if the show wasn't CRAP then why does it just air once a week not counting the second cartoon network channel (which is basically a channel that airs the same shows but 3 hrs after the first time it airs) and Boomerang (which airs the original which as I pointed out is much better)

    Guys even though the Anime is Crap the Pokémon Games and Cards just get better wouldn't you all agree and if the Pokémon Ratings keep going down they may turn to the fans to help make it better or just start from scratch know IDK or probably they will just cancel it which we do not want even if the show is Crap because if that happens it might impact the Games and Cards (Or not because they might just focus more on the game to make them better).
     
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    Actually, I'm not "blinded by nostalgia." In fact, I rewatched the Kanto episodes just recently, and they actually WERE pretty good. And I have a near-eidetic memory, so by definition I CAN'T be blinded by nostalgia since that implies I have a bad memory and am not remembering things right. And even if I hated Pokémon long ago, I still would have given the same answer. Besides, I could easily call you and Lizardo nihilists, because from what I can tell, that's EXACTLY how you're behaving (thinking that the show was never good, like how Kefka found it irrelevant whether it was a living thing or an inanimate object that was destroyed since it didn't matter in the end).
    Lmao what? Self-diagnosing yourself as having an eidetic memory to prove that you can't be nostalgic is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. I don't think you know what either of those words mean.

    And nihilists? Dude... this is surreal.


    Though I'll humor you. Name me five kids shows (and by "kids show", I mean something on the level of "Barney and Friends", "Sesame Street", "Dragon Tales", and the like that is geared to REALLY young kids since that's what you and Lizardo seemed to imply) that deals with broken households, existentialism, death, being lost at sea, and other serious topics, or includes stuff like a bikini party and inflatable boobs? Was Pokémon even in the earlier episodes a family show? Yes, it was. But it was NOT merely a "kids show."
    I don't even know what point you're trying to make with this. I never said Pokemon was on the level of Barney. Also, Pokemon has never "dealt" with any of this. Yeah, they were lost at sea in one episode and death is a thing, but that doesn't mean that it actually explored any of those things in such a way that makes it mature. Virtually every 90s cartoon had scenes like that and Pokemon isn't anything special for it.

    The kids show vs family show thing is a pointless semantics argument and I honestly just don't care enough to reply.


    And I can cite actual, tangible elements to the original series that actually DO make it better than any of its succeeding shows. For instance, the Gym Leaders were actually TREATED as being difficult in a way that was to be expected, especially when Ash at the time was supposed to be a rookie trainer just starting out, and his Pokémon was starting out as well. In future shows, they generally make the Gym Leaders either seem no different from JJM in terms of skill level, maybe barely stronger but not by much (AG and even BW to some extent was especially guilty of this), or it makes Ash and Pikachu look very bad by comparison (DP and XY have this sort of problem). It also did NOT rely on level resets for any of the Pokémon Ash had on hand either, OR for Ash himself. And we also get an actual natural progression of how well Ash was doing, while with other series, they either just have Ash going through the region and barely mentioning his prior ranks, or basically treats one of his few accomplishments as a joke (like with Battle Frontier and how Ash lost to Gary despite the latter being retired from Pokémon training. Yes, you can cite Orange Islands as well, but at least there, one can reasonably assume that Gary underwent training with his Pokémon in anticipation of the Johto league.), and in the case of Best Wishes, they have him flunk a league without even showing anything to make up for it.

    "I'm not biased!" *lists bizarre, subjective, and downright ridiculous criticisms of the show*

    Gym leaders have never been treated as being on the same level as the TRio. I don't care what absurd reasoning you pull out to "prove" that they are, it's not true. And it's not up for debate. Over the last few sagas they've actually gone out of their way to hype up certain gym leaders as being powerful with magazine spreads and the like (Roxie), showing them defeating other characters before Ash's battle (Skyla, Maylene), or just generally giving them powerful Pokemon and difficult strategies to overcome. They are not on the same level as the joke characters who lose every episode.

    OS-DP did actually have Ash growing progressively stronger. BW was the one that stopped that, but that's more of a problem with the nature of the show as a whole than individual sagas. Same goes for the level resets. The "treating the BF win as a joke" thing is also completely wrong. Where are you even getting that from? You didn't watch DP, so you can't know how it was treated. Again, not up for debate.

    Do you see why we tell you that you're blinded by nostalgia? Every one of your posts is some rant about how terrible the show is and how OS was so much better and how the ratings are the worst thing ever and how it's heading towards being cancelled and and and. And any time anyone tries to argue that with you, you pull out these ridiculous criticisms and exaggerations about sagas you haven't even watched. What's the point? If you hate the show so much to the point where you don't even watch it then why do you insist on posting about it? Move on. Let it go. Or at least get a blog or something.
     
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    Lmao what? Self-diagnosing yourself as having an eidetic memory to prove that you can't be nostalgic is probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. I don't think you know what either of those words mean.

    And nihilists? Dude... this is surreal.

    I know what near-eidetic memories means, it means having an almost total recall of events. And I didn't self-diagnose myself. My parents and even some of my teachers, students, and friends can vouch for me.

    And as far as nihilists, the definition of nihilists is that there is nothing that matters, that everything is relative, and there is no absolute. And generally they have a very cynical and bleak view on everything, even arguing there is only evil, not good, if there is an absolute. Think Kefka and how he "objectively" claimed that life, dreams, hope, and creation were meaningless and he might as well destroy them just because.

    I don't even know what point you're trying to make with this. I never said Pokemon was on the level of Barney. Also, Pokemon has never "dealt" with any of this. Yeah, they were lost at sea in one episode and death is a thing, but that doesn't mean that it actually explored any of those things in such a way that makes it mature. Virtually every 90s cartoon had scenes like that and Pokemon isn't anything special for it.

    90s cartoons aren't generally just for kids. They're family entertainment, and that's IF kids are part of the audience (for example, Batman: The Animated Series is NOT actually geared to kids, not according to Bruce Timm, anyway, and neither was Gargoyles.). Kids entertainment is more along the lines of Barney and Friends, Sesame Street, Dragon Tales, and others. For example, in Family Entertainment, they generally include bonuses for the adults to ensure that adults can enjoy it while otherwise being tasteful enough to have it go over the children's heads. And yes, you and Lizardo did in effect imply such was the case when you said they were "mediocre childrens shows." By definition, a kids show NEEDS to be on the level of Barney, to make it exclusively for kids.

    The kids show vs family show thing is a pointless semantics argument and I honestly just don't care enough to reply.

    Those aren't semantics. Words have meaning, and a family show actually ENCOMPASSES all ages, while a kids show is actually very limited, to little kids. I wish people would actually RESPECT the meanings of words rather than dismiss clear distinctions of words as merely being "semantics" or "pointless."

    "I'm not biased!" *lists bizarre, subjective, and downright ridiculous criticisms of the show*

    Gym leaders have never been treated as being on the same level as the TRio. I don't care what absurd reasoning you pull out to "prove" that they are, it's not true. And it's not up for debate. Over the last few sagas they've actually gone out of their way to hype up certain gym leaders as being powerful with magazine spreads and the like (Roxie), showing them defeating other characters before Ash's battle (Skyla, Maylene), or just generally giving them powerful Pokemon and difficult strategies to overcome. They are not on the same level as the joke characters who lose every episode.

    Actually, yes, they HAVE been treated as being on the same level as the TRio in AG and BW. The only real exceptions for AG were Roxanne (who was beaten by Pikachu) and Brawley (Ash needed to fight him twice). The others were actually beaten by an entirely rookie team, or otherwise in the case of Wattson basically had both effectively cheating beforehand (the robotic Raikou for Wattson, and Ash with Pikachu being supercharged and then becoming very sick, and he doesn't actually make up to it). And considering that TRio's first loss in battle was against a Caterpie that not only was completely inexperienced, but nearly dead from something unrelated to them, yes, what happened with AG and BW was DEFINITELY inexcusable in depicting the gym leaders as weakings. At least Johto had Ash using veterans for some of them, and actually losing to the Gym Leaders with his current team, which is a bit more realistic. I'll agree with you regarding XY, though I'm not sure whether it works there, especially when most times they beat Pikachu even though Pikachu if anything would more likely beat them with his hand behind his back. They weren't treated as such in the OS. In fact, while you could argue that the Gym Leaders weren't all THAT well handled in Kanto, they were definitely handled very decently in Orange Islands and Johto.

    OS-DP did actually have Ash growing progressively stronger. BW was the one that stopped that, but that's more of a problem with the nature of the show as a whole than individual sagas. Same goes for the level resets. The "treating the BF win as a joke" thing is also completely wrong. Where are you even getting that from? You didn't watch DP, so you can't know how it was treated. Again, not up for debate.

    No, only OS actually HAD Ash actually growing progressively stronger (because we actually SEE him improving in a single series sitting. At the start of the series, Kanto, we see him with the Top 16, and at the end of the series, Johto, we see him at the Top 8.). DP did come close to matching progression that the OS had (Ash winning Top 4 instead of staying at Top 8, specifically), but even that was only in one series with no real way to look back in the same series. AG, for example, did NOT have Ash improving at all (He stayed at Top 8, the same rank he got in Johto, which actually WAS him improving compared to before. Last I checked, that's not improvement at all, and if anything is remaining constant and possibly stagnating). You could literally skip that series and not really miss much other than wonder why an Aipom was with Ash. Especially when DP and even to some extent the series finale treated his Battle Frontier win, his only major accomplishment in the series, as a joke by having him lose to Gary, who wasn't even a trainer anymore.

    Do you see why we tell you that you're blinded by nostalgia? Every one of your posts is some rant about how terrible the show is and how OS was so much better and how the ratings are the worst thing ever and how it's heading towards being cancelled and and and. And any time anyone tries to argue that with you, you pull out these ridiculous criticisms and exaggerations about sagas you haven't even watched. What's the point? If you hate the show so much to the point where you don't even watch it then why do you insist on posting about it? Move on. Let it go. Or at least get a blog or something.

    No, I'm not being nostalgic at all. I even described to you an instance of where I DO have nostalgia (Beauty and the Beast, where I actually WISH I retained my trust in Belle that I had as a little boy, not have to worry about any implications of whether Belle would be a Jacobin or anything like that, or even aware of the negatives of Feminism) just to demonstrate HOW I'm not being nostalgic about the Original Series at all. And BTW, I cited flaws in the OS, which proves I'm NOT being nostalgic either. Heck, even if I hated the original series with a passion, was visceral in my hatred of it, and had no good memories of it, I STILL would have said what I have been saying all this time, which is further proof that I'm not being nostalgic. Also, the ratings ARE the worst thing ever for this show, that's an objective fact (it's barely even in the threes. Just ask any anime ratings site, and even Dogasu basically commented that the films are doing poorly right now).
     
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    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
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    Not to mention Johto actually HAD Ash improving compared to last time (sure, he didn't win the league, but at least he did better than in Kanto), which is more than can be said with AG, where Ash stays at exactly the same rank as before without any indication of his improving, his sole major accomplishment in AG, the Battle Frontier, was treated as a joke later on, heck, even the series finale when he got beaten by Gary despite his retiring from being a trainer, or how May's goal basically was reused with Dawn.

    You can't gauge Ash improvement solely by League performance. He actually did pretty well in Kanto and only lost because Charizard decided to be an ass at the most inappropriate time possible. If Charizard was obedient, Ash would've mopped the floor with Richie's weak Pokémon.

    By the end of Kanto, Ash wasn't as much of a dummy anymore. However, he didn't improve over that during Johto. Real improvement would've been if he'd had an easier time with the gyms (he struggled quite a bit, especially early on) and if he'd made it to the League finals, possibly confronting the Elite Four. He didn't do anything in Johto that his Kanto League self couldn't have done, and in Johto he had the luxury of (obedient) Charizard and Heracross in addition to Snorlax and Tauros, and also a Flying-type good for more than just blowing away Smokescreens and popping TR balloons (Noctowl).

    Now, the problem with skill development in Pokémon stems from the writers recycling Ash. After experiencing the source material (the games), we know Falkner, Roxanne, Roark, Striatrio and Viola aren't any stronger than Brock. If Ash's development curve was an ascending straight line, he'd never face any problems confronting these. They actually beefed up the early Johto gym leaders (especially Falkner and Bugsy) in the Johto Journeys arc compared to their game selves to make it look like the Johto league was a superior challenge to Kanto's, but that'd never work in AG so they had to reduce Ash back to dimwit status, and again in Best Wishes, which was the same thing they did to Gohan in DBZ Buu saga and Goku in DBGT, to name a close example. To continue a series after the protagonist has reached elite status you need to find a reason to reduce him/her to a weakling again, it's just that in Pokémon they've always done it out of nowhere so it was never believable.
     
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    You can't gauge Ash improvement solely by League performance. He actually did pretty well in Kanto and only lost because Charizard decided to be an ass at the most inappropriate time possible. If Charizard was obedient, Ash would've mopped the floor with Richie's weak Pokémon.

    By the end of Kanto, Ash wasn't as much of a dummy anymore. However, he didn't improve over that during Johto. Real improvement would've been if he'd had an easier time with the gyms (he struggled quite a bit, especially early on) and if he'd made it to the League finals, possibly confronting the Elite Four. He didn't do anything in Johto that his Kanto League self couldn't have done, and in Johto he had the luxury of (obedient) Charizard and Heracross in addition to Snorlax and Tauros, and also a Flying-type good for more than just blowing away Smokescreens and popping TR balloons (Noctowl).

    Now, the problem with skill development in Pokémon stems from the writers recycling Ash. After experiencing the source material (the games), we know Falkner, Roxanne, Roark, Striatrio and Viola aren't any stronger than Brock. If Ash's development curve was an ascending straight line, he'd never face any problems confronting these. They actually beefed up the early Johto gym leaders (especially Falkner and Bugsy) in the Johto Journeys arc compared to their game selves to make it look like the Johto league was a superior challenge to Kanto's, but that'd never work in AG so they had to reduce Ash back to dimwit status, and again in Best Wishes, which was the same thing they did to Gohan in DBZ Buu saga and Goku in DBGT, to name a close example. To continue a series after the protagonist has reached elite status you need to find a reason to reduce him/her to a weakling again, it's just that in Pokémon they've always done it out of nowhere so it was never believable.

    In all fairness to Johto, he actually did whup Faulkner's butt in a single battle, and primarily used his veterans that time, and most of the struggles DID deal with his using an effectively new team. That's definitely a LOT better than how he got his first badge with Brock (he lost the first time, and even in the second he forfeited, so technically he never even won against Brock, not to mention even before then, he only won due to dumb luck regarding the sprinklers being set off, as otherwise, even with Pikachu's... enhanced power having enough to actually have Onix feel pain when earlier it had a no sell effect, was ultimately not enough to actually bring him down.), not to mention he actually EARNED his badges via battle this time around, rather than technically getting them without beating the Gym Leader (really, the only gym leaders he actually managed to win the badge fair and square in direct combat was Lt. Surge, Koga, Blane, and Team Rocket). Probably the closest thing to an instance where Ash didn't win his badge was with Pryce, though in all fairness, he DID technically beat Pryce that time. And good point regarding his loss to Ritchie, but nonetheless, he still had massively improved in Johto, and I'm not just talking about the fact that he got Top 8 instead of Top 16 (though that is a major part of it).

    So far as AG, to be honest, I actually WISHED that Ash did lose to the Gym Leaders repeatedly via his rookie team and not just to Brawley (I'm not counting Norman because that was more of an excuse to force Ash to go the route of the games), since at least if they did that, the Gym Leaders actually WOULD look serious enough of a threat rather than just being Team Rocket clones (now, if Pikachu was fighting against the Gym Leaders, by all means, have him breeze through them, since at least he's a veteran so him going through the Gym Leaders actually WOULD be realistic). As they depicted the Hoenn Gym Leaders, it just seemed downright insulting to Gym Leaders as a result. DP and XY did it slightly better, but not by much (XY is probably the closest we've got to how the Original Series handled Gym Leaders). I can't help but get flashbacks to how Jessie James and Meowth were outright slaughtered by Caterpie in the third episode despite the latter being completely inexperienced compared to them, but also nearly-dead thanks to Ash's stupidity in having it fight Pidgeotto earlier.
     

    Cerberus87

    Mega Houndoom, baby!
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    In all fairness to Johto, he actually did whup Faulkner's butt in a single battle, and primarily used his veterans that time, and most of the struggles DID deal with his using an effectively new team.

    He had difficulty against Falkner because, despite him being Kanto League level when he arrived in Johto, he ludicrously picked Chikorita against Hoothoot, which is a newbie's mistake. With Pikachu in his roster, all he had to do was Thunderbolt everything to oblivion. Appropriately, Hoothoot pounded Chikorita, not even needing its psychic powers for that (and in the anime Pokémon with psychic powers tend to be portrayed as godlike).

    Then Ash beat Hoothoot and Dodrio with Pikachu, as expected, and lost the rodent to Pidgeot. Falkner's ace actually did a number to Charizard and the battle could've gone either way but Falkner got too overconfident and handed the battle to Ash on a silver platter.
     
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    He had difficulty against Falkner because, despite him being Kanto League level when he arrived in Johto, he ludicrously picked Chikorita against Hoothoot, which is a newbie's mistake. With Pikachu in his roster, all he had to do was Thunderbolt everything to oblivion. Appropriately, Hoothoot pounded Chikorita, not even needing its psychic powers for that (and in the anime Pokémon with psychic powers tend to be portrayed as godlike).

    Then Ash beat Hoothoot and Dodrio with Pikachu, as expected, and lost the rodent to Pidgeot. Falkner's ace actually did a number to Charizard and the battle could've gone either way but Falkner got too overconfident and handed the battle to Ash on a silver platter.

    When I think of "difficulty", I think of whether he needed any retries especially if he lost in a full battle beforehand (retries due to interruptions by Team Rocket don't count, BTW, and neither do battles that were interrupted before conclusion), so seeing how Ash did beat Faulkner without even NEEDING, let alone doing a retry, I'd say he beat him easily. Whitney, on the other hand, DID have difficulty since he actually DID need to rematch her once. In order for it to be difficult in AG, especially with his rookie team, he needs to suffer as he did with Lt. Surge (be beaten at least once, then beat him second or even third time around, in other words). Same with DP, BW, and XY. And yes, that also extends to Kanto, Orange Islands, and Johto as well.
     
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    I saw an old trailer of Pokémon Mewtwo movie.
    There was an end to this series but the writers deleted the end. Because Pokémon got popular and no need to end it.


    Here:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b70GRNYnacI


    Is Pokemon Anime Ruined



    Is Pokemon Anime Ruined



    Now we have to deal with an endless story that goes nowhere.

    I don't like this. I remember burning the fuel of my motorbike to go to the nearby Internet cafe. I wanted to see the DP league. Then .... I was highly disappointed watching Ash getting a humiliating defeat. I will not trust the series and its amazing Japanese openings again.
     
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