Is Pokemon Anime Ruined

[weedle_mchairybug]

Yes, really. I found AG to be very bland and repetetive up to the Battle Frontier arc, which attempted character development and was a lot more interesting to watch, mostly because Ash learned from his mistakes, especially against Brandon at the end. Ash's Pokemon having more personality than Ash himself is something every series shares, even BW, so I don't really think it a point in AG's favour specifically. None of his AG Pokemon particularly stood out to me, except Sceptile...and that is only because it managed to take down Darkrai in DPPt. As for it being on-par with the original series when it comes to humour...I don't see that. But then, I suppose that's probably because our senses of humour are different. The anime was a lot less tongue-in-cheek by that point. It was more entertaining than BW, but BW cut out 90% of the humour by attempting to turn Team Rocket into a credible threat, something it ballsed up spectacularly.

I will agree with you about the Don battle tournaments in BW though, those were the only reason I kept watching the series after a point, if only because the battles were entertaining and you were never sure who was going to win them. It wasn't a foregone conclusion that someone would win or lose, so it was pretty entertaining to watch. That would be the only word of praise I have for that season, though. Iris and Cilan were filler characters who never really went anywhere, the rivals were forgettable - probably because there were so many of them - and Ash's reset to default after DPPt was a particularly bitter pill to swallow this time around.

Agreed with you there about AG, it was downright terrible. Aside from the points you brought up, there's also the fact that Ash's Hoenn trek ultimately came across as exceedingly pointless as a result of Ash staying at the exact same rank as before. Even BW, in spite of it being an even worse turnout than AG, at least SHOWED some degree of differentiation in league results from before, even though it was more like getting a worse rank than before. Look, people can complain about Johto's fillers and whatnot, but at least Johto actually ENDED on a high-note for its league, had Ash actually do BETTER than before, and even actually beat his own rival. And even his one major accomplishment in AG, winning the battle frontier, got treated as a joke by the end of AG, not to mention during DP, where Pikachu lost to an Electivire by a trainer who was supposed to have retired from Pokémon Leagues to go in his grandpa's footsteps in the former, and in the latter, ended up manhandled by an Ursaring who was supposed to be a rookie (we even saw its capture nearing the beginning of the DP saga) despite taking down a freaking Regice with minimum effort (not to mention said Ursaring's trainer being handed his butt by Brandon earlier), and heck, May even came across as utterly pointless after they decided to reuse her goal for Dawn. If anything, Hoenn, if not AG itself came across more as a skippable filler saga than Johto ever did.

So far as BW, Iris was fairly good from what I could gather, being similar to Misty in several respects. Granted, I can't quite determine whether or not she was a Hina stereotype since unlike Misty, I don't think she was ever given the test (Misty at least proved she was not when she didn't "follow the crowd" in Princess vs. Princess. Wish there was something similar that could be used to gauge it). Other than that... yeah, the BW series was definitely bad, arguably even worse than AG.

 

[precita]

Yes, really. I found AG to be very bland and repetetive up to the Battle Frontier arc, which attempted character development and was a lot more interesting to watch, mostly because Ash learned from his mistakes, especially against Brandon at the end.

Ash's entire character was portrayed completely differently in AG than the OS. He had matured, evolved nearly all his pokemon, and it was the first time he was pushed into an older/mentor role due to May and Max being younger than him. Its true since Ash had no rival in AG that he wasn't competing against anyone, but considering most of the development focus shifted onto May that saga for being the new beginning trainer, its understandable. And outside of Ash, literally everything else that was happening in Hoenn was something that was brand new to the series at the time.

Sceptile was Ash's first fully evolved starter since Charizard and people liked it because it was constantly portrayed as tough and competitive, which is where Turtwig/Torterra fell flat to people in DP. Especially since Turtwig never had much personality compared to the other grass types in general. Corphish was one of Ash's funniest pokemon, Swellow was the first bird who actually battled, and Snorunt/Glalie was pretty awesome in the short time it was there. Torkoal was really his only forgettable Hoenn pokemon.

Yeah, there are some stretches of dull filler in Hoenn, but you can say the same for just about every series. The writers always make bland pokemon of the day episodes in every series.

But then, I suppose that's probably because our senses of humour are different. The anime was a lot less tongue-in-cheek by that point. It was more entertaining than BW, but BW cut out 90% of the humour by attempting to turn Team Rocket into a credible threat, something it ballsed up spectacularly.

AG's humor was the closest to the OS of any of the other series, probably because it came directly after it. There wasn't a tonal shift in the show until DP started where it got a lot more serious due to Paul, Hunter J, etc. Even BW and XY don't have similar humor to the OS at all. And I'm not referring to the dub actors either, I'm talking about the show in Japanese.

A lot of the more wacky Japanese humor died off around Orange Islands anyway, because that was when pokemon became popular in international audiences. A lot of what you're referring to didn't go beyond the Kanto arc of the anime.

 

[Palamon]

"Ruined."

It's only the dub that was ruined once they switched from 4Kids to TCPi. The anime itself isn't "ruined", or it would have been cancelled, lol.

 

[UltimateFrosty08]

"Ruined."

It's only the dub that was ruined once they switched from 4Kids to TCPi. The anime itself isn't "ruined", or it would have been cancelled, lol.

They got rid of 4kids let me guess it was during Black and White that would explain alot.

 

[Palamon]

They got rid of 4kids let me guess it was during Black and White that would explain alot.

Try even earlier. Try by Battle Frontier. That's when someone else took over.

 

[UltimateFrosty08]

Try even earlier. Try by Battle Frontier. That's when someone else took over.

The Battle Frontier they did good with D&P they probably started doing their own thing at Black and White

 

[d]

I don't think the dub "ruined" the anime. The voice acting and openings are worse nowadays, but I still would say 4kids takes 1st prize for worst dub ever. So many mistakes, deviations from the original and terrible lip syncing.

 

[Concussion]

I'd been getting tired of it around the time BW Season 2 started and had started looking at spoilers from Japan (I'd been watching the dub at that point.). I didn't appreciate the Rocket Trio fakeout, since I wanted them gone and was sorely disappointed. When I found out Satoshi lost to Kotetsu (how was also bad, but the fact that he lost again was the bigger issue at the time), that's when I knew it was over and done for me. It wouldn't change and would just become worse. XY could have brought me back in some capacity until XY060 came along. Of course, it's also helped me realize the anime was never truly good in the first place. It also helped me make my own reboot.

 

[Otamajakushi]

I think each series of the anime appeals to a different audience. As the demographic ages, they (usually) tend to grow out of it to some extend. So if you grew up watching the Diamond/Pearl series, for example, the Black and White series won't appeal to you as much. The same works, in some ways, for series prior to Diamond and Pearl.

Now, there are those cases where someone just likes all of them, and that's great! But Pokemon is targeted at a specific audience and as you get older, you stop being part of that target demographic. This makes it much more difficult to like the anime.

That said, I still kind of enjoy the anime, but I don't really watch it frequently. I'll binge it on occasional though. Sometimes, I'll look up a Pokemon I want to see and watch only those episodes.

 

[hamiz16]

So I just joined this forum and I am also relatively new the Pokemon world. I remember watching bits of episodes from Pocket Monsters, AG, and DP, but recently I had a major relapse and started watching the whole series from Season 1--still havent finished the whole thing yet.

What I have noticed-aside from voice changes-the main difference that I felt hurt Pokemon the most was what someone earlier mentioned: characters keep getting cut off. I think that Pokemon really shot themselves in the foot by removing May and adding Dawn and all the new people that came after her--Replacing Misty with May was ok because they had to introduce Contests, but they should have brought Misty back.
I think that the only reason Pokemon is still up there is because the games are holding them up--especially with the much anticipated Pokemon Go.
But then again, I'm still new to this and I haven't even played any of the games except for Pokemon Legends.

 

[Sun]

So I just joined this forum and I am also relatively new the Pokemon world. I remember watching bits of episodes from Pocket Monsters, AG, and DP, but recently I had a major relapse and started watching the whole series from Season 1--still havent finished the whole thing yet.

What I have noticed-aside from voice changes-the main difference that I felt hurt Pokemon the most was what someone earlier mentioned: characters keep getting cut off. I think that Pokemon really shot themselves in the foot by removing May and adding Dawn and all the new people that came after her--Replacing Misty with May was ok because they had to introduce Contests, but they should have brought Misty back.
I think that the only reason Pokemon is still up there is because the games are holding them up--especially with the much anticipated Pokemon Go.
But then again, I'm still new to this and I haven't even played any of the games except for Pokemon Legends.

Misty? Woah, woah, woah mate, she was like from the last century during the 90s? XD Last time she made her appearance was over a decade ago. Lol There's no need to drag her from where she left, I prefer her to stay in Kanto. Having said that, as a 90s kid I do love her a lot, but I want the audience to have their own set of era and relatable characters instead of reusing the old characters as main characters.

As for Ash, his situation is a bit different. He's the human mascot of Pokemon series, therefore it is understandable he was kept around. Not that I'm supportive of him staying though, in my opinion he could have adapted a mentor role to help the new characters like Serena. But then and again, Pokeani is mainly aimed at children, character developments like in DP are not common and Pokeani is generally simple, kid-friendly. Unless they are changing their primary audience, there's no reason to bring back our classic trio. (:

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Misty? Woah, woah, woah mate, she was like from the last century during the 90s? XD Last time she made her appearance was over a decade ago. Lol There's no need to drag her from where she left, I prefer her to stay in Kanto. Having said that, as a 90s kid I do love her a lot, but I want the audience to have their own set of era and relatable characters instead of reusing the old characters as main characters.

As for Ash, his situation is a bit different. He's the human mascot of Pokemon series, therefore it is understandable he was kept around. Not that I'm supportive of him staying though, in my opinion he could have adapted a mentor role to help the new characters like Serena. But then and again, Pokeani is mainly aimed at children, character developments like in DP are not common and Pokeani is generally simple, kid-friendly. Unless they are changing their primary audience, there's no reason to bring back our classic trio. (:

No, there's absolutely NO reason to keep Misty in Kanto (especially when the only reason she's still in Kanto is because her sisters are too incompetent at the gym to be of any help, not to mention they essentially forced her to return to the gym anyway). May, Dawn, and, heck, even Iris at least managed to actually CONTINUE their journey, and at least Brock managed to actually willingly change his goal. Misty couldn't have either. It's a LOT better to just bring her back.

And in case you've forgotten, many kid friendly shows reuse a lot of the main characters, not just one. Think Scooby Doo, or Mario, or Dragon Ball. Besides, even if they were to change up the cast, they generally DON'T spare anyone. Think how Digimon, Metal Gear, Yu-Gi-Oh, and the like are like.

Besides, by your logic, Pokémon's ratings would be about the same height as Kanto's if not even higher just because they essentially have reserves in terms of the children audience to cater to the new generation. Yet in AG, BW, XY, heck, even DP, they are much lower in ratings than even the Johto Saga, and it speaks volumes of how not-so-well received those shows are if they can't even beat Johto, which was considered by a lot of people (not me, personally, but still several people) to be a pointless filler-fest.

 

[hamiz16]

May, Dawn, and, heck, even Iris at least managed to actually CONTINUE their journey, and at least Brock managed to actually willingly change his goal. Misty couldn't have either. It's a LOT better to just bring her back.

This is a really good point. I dont remeber it exactly, but there was a huge water-only tournament that Misty and Ash joined sometime after Oragnge Islands; as a future plot point, they should have Misty come back-I get your point Sun, so maybe for only half a season-and compete in that tournament again. Atleast let her finish her goal then drop her.

 

[illumine]

You figure that Misty's goal was rarely emphasised, they didn't want to go into a random spate of focus on a particular type of Pokémon as opposed to the other types that generally show up. She was generally a supporting character, in the series, to change her now to someone focused on, even to 'complete her goal' (and making this a focus of the series would be counter-productive to 'getting rid' of' them, as you don't have a replacement now that the series is about them, the rest of the things in the series would now be associated with them and their goal), would be to derail her position in the series, to the extent where it couldn't even be fobbed off as 'character development' (which FYI is also rare in most 'adult' shows.)

 

[DBZ fan]

You figure that Misty's goal was rarely emphasised, they didn't want to go into a random spate of focus on a particular type of Pokémon as opposed to the other types that generally show up. She was generally a supporting character, in the series, to change her now to someone focused on, even to 'complete her goal' (and making this a focus of the series would be counter-productive to 'getting rid' of' them, as you don't have a replacement now that the series is about them, the rest of the things in the series would now be associated with them and their goal), would be to derail her position in the series, to the extent where it couldn't even be fobbed off as 'character development' (which FYI is also rare in most 'adult' shows.)

Eh as long more focus for Misty tying up loose ends left around her would result in something meaningful for character and of value for pokemon series, than it would be only evolution of what her role used to be before in my book. In getting deserved fleshing out and more exploration of many fundamentally unique and interest subplots writers started about her, but never gave us culmination and ending. Becoming water pokemon master and E4 member living up to dol Prima/Lorelei was one of them.

Possible Misty comeback getting more development could also have if she's smartly used symbolic reference/meaning to her mentor and voice of reason role she used to had when Ash was much more inexperienced not abandoning but only improving her position of what she used to be before. Such as playing part in whole Ash story about his Greninja and synchronization achieved with it. Nowadays as more knowledgeable, gifted with new skills learned in meantime, smarter and more tough as young trainer.

In helping him out since water is her specialty , alongside this serving as priceless experience for Misty too in better understanding what is secret behind reaching such close bond and full power of pokemon your using. Which she as aspiring water master should know.

Or her effort and work toward becoming E4 apprentice, like either Lorelei, Siebold, Wallace entering tournaments, battling strong trainers and passing tests to be accepted as their protege in taking her under their custody resulting in giving Ash open window to see from first hand their battling strategies, strength and weaknesses in better preparing him for his official challenge when facing them n champion league,

With Misty hypothetical return and more focus on her own story resulting in helping move forward other people stories as well.

Looking at Misty revival in pokemon series personally as more so investing in highly popular, iconic and widely accepted first pokemon female in increasing people interest and excitement for this anime. With many wanting to see her again.

Not having to be bad idea at all, because admittedly I do miss her character having great and rich personality. Endearing dynamic with Ash and others and her story does deserve to get some closure and more character development. Playing for one last time some important and significant role in pokemon before it ends for good.:happy:

 

[illumine]

Eh as long more focus for Misty tying up loose ends left around her would result in something meaningful for character and of value for pokemon series, than it would be only evolution of what her role used to be before in my book. In getting deserved fleshing out and more exploration of many fundamentally unique and interest subplots writers started about her, but never gave us culmination and ending. Becoming water pokemon master and E4 member living up to dol Prima/Lorelei was one of them.

Her overall 'role' is different from occasional 'sub-plots' which were introduced and carried out while she was still in this role, her purpose is to carry out this 'role' and not to complete sub-plots, which might be desired by viewers for some reason but needn't be intended to be taken to their conclusion by writers. To put it another way, these tasks are effectively like properties compared to her actual role in the series, and if for instance a female character likes creating elaborate earrings, it doesn't follow that by the end of the thing they have to have created the most fancy earrings - but it does follow that they have a certain archetype and place in the series. You seem to assume that the writers would be disappointed by the lack of a culmination and ending, but ultimately her being a 'water Pokémon trainer' trying to get better at this limits her role in the 'Pokémon' series, which is about finding new Pokémon of whatever type and puts a lot of emphasis on this, and her status as an ex-gym leader likewise separates them from a plot which is about beating gym leaders who are supposed to be tougher anyway (although you suspect that there's some deception going on there anyway.) These things work along with her status as a supporting character, they do not propel her into a main character, and in this series everyone talks in hyperbole constantly.

A character's purpose is not to initiate sub-plots and create interesting activities in a series, it is their place in the dynamic of that series.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Her overall 'role' is different from occasional 'sub-plots' which were introduced and carried out while she was still in this role, her purpose is to carry out this 'role' and not to complete sub-plots, which might be desired by viewers for some reason but needn't be intended to be taken to their conclusion by writers. To put it another way, these tasks are effectively like properties compared to her actual role in the series, and if for instance a female character likes creating elaborate earrings, it doesn't follow that by the end of the thing they have to have created the most fancy earrings - but it does follow that they have a certain archetype and place in the series. You seem to assume that the writers would be disappointed by the lack of a culmination and ending, but ultimately her being a 'water Pokémon trainer' trying to get better at this limits her role in the 'Pokémon' series, which is about finding new Pokémon of whatever type and puts a lot of emphasis on this, and her status as an ex-gym leader likewise separates them from a plot which is about beating gym leaders who are supposed to be tougher anyway (although you suspect that there's some deception going on there anyway.) These things work along with her status as a supporting character, they do not propel her into a main character, and in this series everyone talks in hyperbole constantly.

A character's purpose is not to initiate sub-plots and create interesting activities in a series, it is their place in the dynamic of that series.

Just so you're aware, her goal of wanting to be the World's Greatest Water Pokémon Master was stated as early as Kanto (if not in Bulbasaur and the Hidden Village, then it was certainly first mentioned in Tentacool and Tentacruel), so it's not merely a sub plot, but an ACTUAL role for her. Otherwise, you might as well list Ash's Greatest Pokémon Master goal as merely a subplot and not his actual role.

 

[DBZ fan]

Her overall 'role' is different from occasional 'sub-plots' which were introduced and carried out while she was still in this role, her purpose is to carry out this 'role' and not to complete sub-plots, which might be desired by viewers for some reason but needn't be intended to be taken to their conclusion by writers. To put it another way, these tasks are effectively like properties compared to her actual role in the series, and if for instance a female character likes creating elaborate earrings, it doesn't follow that by the end of the thing they have to have created the most fancy earrings - but it does follow that they have a certain archetype and place in the series. You seem to assume that the writers would be disappointed by the lack of a culmination and ending, but ultimately her being a 'water Pokémon trainer' trying to get better at this limits her role in the 'Pokémon' series, which is about finding new Pokémon of whatever type and puts a lot of emphasis on this, and her status as an ex-gym leader likewise separates them from a plot which is about beating gym leaders who are supposed to be tougher anyway (although you suspect that there's some deception going on there anyway.) These things work along with her status as a supporting character, they do not propel her into a main character, and in this series everyone talks in hyperbole constantly.

A character's purpose is not to initiate sub-plots and create interesting activities in a series, it is their place in the dynamic of that series.

Difference is that writers themselves admitted how there existed ideas to be done more with Misty character if ex head writer who did construction for Original series(Takeshi Shudo)blogs were something to go by. Bringing up how he regrets in not giving Misty/Kasumi character bigger role in pokemon series exploring more on her own past, struggles and ultimately dreams. Career she pursued.

However since at that time pokemon formula was more so about adventure, friendship, building on emotional connection between protagonist and personality growth. Things like battling and development of protagonists goals was put in second plan compared to practice subsequent series resorted to. That and during time Misty was main character pokemon anime was still in experimental stage with producers themselves not being sure in what direction they wish to take this show and its characters.

So if writers themselves wanted to give Misty bigger role but reacted too late when she was already planned to leave cast, indicates if anything how they had ideas in how to develop her character more without completely changing her role in dynamic of series.

As for being water trainer representing issue in how big role character can have. That doesn't have to be problem at all because way i see it trainer which specialize in water types would better promote and represent water types, and appeal behind Misty niche to use one type was never so much in promotion but more in adding something fresh and different on table as opposite to usual career we followed with Ash.

After all some diversity in main cast line up and unpredictability is always desirable. Rather than making every member of main cast as regular ordinary trainer and Misty just happens to be lucky enough in specializing in most abundant and diverse pokemon type out there water. Having rich pool of pokemon to choose from and make several water related themes, ideas which could be enjoyable and engaging to watch.

If anything I find Misty career less limiting than pokemon performing Serena pursue, Since its gender neutral, involves battling and competing in tournaments widening options and ways through which follow up on Misty story could be arranged.

Likewise Misty in order to tie up loose ends in her story and get update, sequel to her story seeing her again in pokemon doesn't need same amount of focus May, Dawn or Ash received/receives, To give her some more progression and chance to be of importance to pokemon again.


In nutshell there exists ways to give Misty role and place in pokemon story again, if anything than at least temporarily without destroying image of who and what her character was before.

 

[illumine]

Just so you're aware, her goal of wanting to be the World's Greatest Water Pokémon Master was stated as early as Kanto (if not in Bulbasaur and the Hidden Village, then it was certainly first mentioned in Tentacool and Tentacruel), so it's not merely a sub plot, but an ACTUAL role for her. Otherwise, you might as well list Ash's Greatest Pokémon Master goal as merely a subplot and not his actual role.

That isn't a role, it is, as the other person said, a 'sub-plot.' I didn't originate this use of the term. Nonetheless, I am quite aware that that goal (which let's be frank they introduced without caring about what it means) was there, but Ash and Misty are different people (Ash isn't the only person who wants to be 'the best,' right) and have different roles. Misty's goal, likewise, can't be seen outside of its relation with Ash's, which is to say that without further definition it basically comes across as her being an automatic side-character, who is then integrated into the journey. This goal can be integrated into their 'role' in various ways, but ultimately the most obvious means in their case and in the context was that they are a side-character, and firmly so.

Things like battling

Speaking of which, 'development of protagonists' goals' is something very rarely seen in anything noticeable in the field, especially when it was early on and frequently noticed. Obviously they wanted defined characters, not just mannequins to play around with and develop for its own sake. However, 'battling' was very much a focus earlier on, along with the 'creatures' themselves, as it was about introducing the Pokémon thing to an audience. This was a part of Ash's role which they never fully moved away from.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

That isn't a role, it is, as the other person said, a 'sub-plot.' I didn't originate this use of the term. Nonetheless, I am quite aware that that goal (which let's be frank they introduced without caring about what it means) was there, but Ash and Misty are different people (Ash isn't the only person who wants to be 'the best,' right) and have different roles. Misty's goal, likewise, can't be seen outside of its relation with Ash's, which is to say that without further definition it basically comes across as her being an automatic side-character, who is then integrated into the journey. This goal can be integrated into their 'role' in various ways, but ultimately the most obvious means in their case and in the context was that they are a side-character, and firmly so.

Actually, it can be seen outside of its relation to Ash. Heck, we even got a whole tournament related to it in Misty's case. Not to mention she had already developed her goal before even MEETING Ash in the first episode (what, you think she just left the Cerulean Gym on a mere whim?). Besides, I guess Ash's Pokémon Master goal is just a sub-plot as well rather than his actual role, or have you forgotten we didn't even get ANYTHING relating to a concrete definition of a Pokémon Master and how to get there until DP (we couldn't even assume that becoming a champion or a Frontier Brain equated to that, considering he obviously didn't achieve it in either Orange Islands or the Battle Frontier).

Speaking of which, 'development of protagonists' goals' is something very rarely seen in anything noticeable in the field, especially when it was early on and frequently noticed. Obviously they wanted defined characters, not just mannequins to play around with and develop for its own sake. However, 'battling' was very much a focus earlier on, along with the 'creatures' themselves, as it was about introducing the Pokémon thing to an audience. This was a part of Ash's role which they never fully moved away from.

Yeah, and right now, they actually haven't really developed him at all in that field either (otherwise, he would have won a league by now).