Metagame Discussion Thread

[Dark Azelf]

Ok, im going to repost this thread because of late s+m has been like a desert and with no action even Anti gets more action rofl, but seriously yeah it needs some life injected into it.

Metagame Discussion Thread

This is the thread where PokéCommunity members can discuss the current OU, UU, and Uber metagames. Most of the Strategies and Movesets forum is dedicated to team rating and individual movesets, so a discussion thread is a refreshing change of pace from the usual moveset and team rating threads. This thread will also be much more heavily moderated than other threads on the forum since discussion threads are much more likely to melt down without strict control over the thread. Remember to follow the rules and have a good time discussing the metagame!

I. How Discussions Will Operate

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Discussions will not be limited by a selected topic, so everything will evolve naturally. If the topic slowly changes, that's okay. Heated debate is strongly encouraged (as long as your are being respectful and using logic and evidence when posting your opinions), but don't take anything too far and remember that it is just Pokémon. Also, try to stick to one discussion to prevent this thread from turning this thread into a chaotic mess of random posts, which is anything but a discussion.

Remember, this thread relies on you, the member, to be a success. Please do your part in being informed and logical while posting. This will ensure that this thread is the home of several quality discussions and a great place for PCers to voice their opinions about the current metagame.

II. Rules And Regulations

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→ Explain your thoughts in full detail when necessary. If your thought is brief and does not require a lot of explanation, you do not need to go into unnecessarily long essays about what you think. On the other hand, if your thought is rather complex or your have a position to defend (or are disagreeing with somebody else's), then you will need to fully explain your thoughts. While any opinion can be voiced, it must be backed up or it will not be taken seriously or respected until you explain why you have the opinion you do. This will help to promote a thoughtful and interesting discussion. Any posts that do not follow this rule will be promptly deleted, and breaking this rule could result in receiving infractions from a moderator, so don't do it.

→ Do not defy logic in your posts. This basically means that you should not be saying things that aren't true. Make sure that you are unbiased and always be sure that your evidence is relevant and solid. Saying that Snorlax is not a good way to deal with Choice Scarf Heatran is not adding to the discussion, and posts containing too much flawed logic will be promptly deleted. If you make too many posts deemed "bad" by the moderators, you will be infracted by them for posting low-quality posts.

→ Do not insult or flame other members. This should be very obvious, but discussion threads are often reduced to insults and useless flame wars. Anybody involved in a flame war will receive an infraction immediately, no exceptions. Flame wars are just spam and take away from the discussion as a whole, and they will not be tolerated. Insults are handled in the same way, only first offenders will be warned not to insult another member again. However, you will only get one warning before insults are treated like flame wars, which will result in an infraction no matter what.

→ A moderator's judgment on if you have broken a rule or not is final. This applies to all of the rules. Annoying the moderators with visitor messages and/or private messages about how your post should not have been deleted will not get you anywhere, so you might as well not even bother. Bothering moderators about their decisions will only get you into further trouble and will get you infracted in a heartbeat.

III. Closing Comments

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Let the discussion begin! Have a good time and feel free to voice your opinions (assuming they are properly backed up, of course). Let's try to bring out the full potential of this thread by informing and challenging each other, and let's have a good time doing it!

Also, huge thanks to BeachBoy for the format design and Anti for the initial thread.


So yeah discuss stuff. ^^


Ill give a topic to start off with "According to usage statistics, it wont be long before we may see Donphan, Heracross and Dugtrio in uu." Thoughts ? =o

 

[Syaoran]

If Dugtrio -does- manage to become UU, it won't survive there and will be immediately moved to BL since it can trap and kill with SE EQ too many UU pokes, mainly sweepers. But I don't think Dugtrio will be moved down in the near future, since it still knows how to do its job... can't really say the same about Donphan, which I always considered as a UU poke.
Heracross is still a big threat in OU, and can score a lot of kills if played correctly. By correctly, I mean prediction. A well timed Stone Edge makes all the difference and can destroy "counters" like Zapdos, Salamence or Gyara. Even with CC they will be struggling if SR is up. I really can't see this thing becoming UU, ever.

 

[wolf]

Heracross would change the metagame more than the other two would in my opinion. It would also mean Registeel might decrease in usage, as Heracross can CC it, and it appreciates switching into Toxic and Thunder Wave. Look on what could be considered counters in UU (this may not be all of them): Nidoqueen would spark in usage, probably being the best counter for it, she can carry Aerial Ace also. Weezing can wall it, and Flamethrower or Fire Blast it. Spiritomb can maybe wall it and Spite it due to CC, Megahorn, and Stone Edge's low PP? Rotom could Reflect on it? (The italicized is gimmicky though) Nidoking can come in a sweep (hit it with Fire Blast maybe?), and Toxicroak can set-up on it. I am not for sure on most of these counters as I have not done any damage calculations yet. :x Even then, I just cannot see myself finding Heracross in UU. :\ If it does go in UU, it does have a chance of being a suspect and moving to BL at least.

I don't know about Dugtrio though, you cannot "counter" it, as it just traps...

Donphan should be tested, never found it to be a OU Pokemon.

Edit: Dugtrio might settle stall team usage a bit as it can trap Chansey and such?

 

[Aurafire]

Yus, metagame thread <3

Alrighty:

Donphan - Personally, I think it should be tested for UU. I haven't seen one on shoddy in a really long time, and it has a rather disappointing lack of viable options besides its spinner and CB set. Those definitely won't be game-breaking in the UU environment.

Heracross - Ehhhh, I'm a bit iffy here. While Hera has dropped in usage due to Scizor, it's still a very powerful attacker and might be a bit too over-powered for the UU environment. It's not like it got any less powerful just because Scizor showed up. CC + Megahorn + Stone Edge is a very potent attacking combo. I doubt it'll go down to UU.

Dugtrio - Well, the list of things it can trap and kill goes way up in UU; I think that testing it will clearly reveal this. While it's not used a whole lot in OU, it'll definitely be metagame-centralizing if it get moved down. I say it stays OU.

 

[Pokedra]

Finally posted it >:

Donphan - I honestly can see this dropping to UU, the spinner set is outclassed and nobody really uses Rapid Spin anymore. The CBset is decent but in UU, there are a fair few Pokemon who can handle him.

Dugtrio - I'm not too sure at the moment, if it does move down to UU it can trap and revenge kill a lot of sweepers and would hurt stall smashing staples like Chansey and Registeel for 2HKO's. I think if it's moved down, it'll quickly become BL.

Heracross - It's usage has been dropping because of Scizor but he still packs one hell of a punch and can still threaten some OU teams. I'm personally leaning towards him staying in OU.

 

[Max™]

Yea, I read awhile back that it may soon be in UU if the usage continues to drop but of late, my use of Heracross has spiked and from experience, there is no way this thing UU. Able to destroy anything in it's way with any given choice set is deadly enough but able to boost it's attack sky high via status is just brutal. As Sya mentioned, a well timed shot can knock out so-called counters opening a sweep for Heracross and Co.

Moving down to UU, Heracross would be a not even a force, a nuke will you. Considering that the only surefire counter to Heracross in OU is Gliscor and he has his typing to tank for this but in UU, what's going to counter THIS thing? A Nidoqueen at best carrying Arial Ace but even then, it can no longer set down T-Spikes as that would just be an invitation for Heracross to come in and abuse, no matter what set is being ran.

I think Dugtrio runs in the same vein but because you can't really 'counter' this as you cannot switch out and can only come in and hope for pursuit. And the only liable pursuiter is.... uh... Absol? Cacturne? Trapinch ?!?! But agree with Sya on this as well.

Though Im pretty sure my opinion is never really taken seriously lol so yea.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Hera counters in UU are things like, Weezing, Nidoqueen, Gligar (lol), Dusclops, Defensive Rotom who also avoids the 2HKO from its CB set (bar night slash), that and that broken Yanmega also pretty much can check it too, Crobat can do the same (if it comes back down). I mean its powerfull but meh, i dont see it fully sweeping teams.

Duggy i can see as stopping the "stall" problem that is down there currently. Since its pretty established that stall is quite overpowered as of late, i mean im not complaining, i like stall as much as the next guy, but yeah. XD

Donphan as a Rapid Spinner sucks, like really. Mainly because people use it wrong totally. Ice Shard = ROFL useless on the spinner. SR/RS/EQ/Assurance, Stone Edge, Odor Sleuth (<Lets you RS on Ghosts ^^), heck or even Knock off in that last slot is more viable that mess that is called Ice Shard. Im also a huge a huge fan of how Ice Shard does LESS that stone edge to Mence lolol. CB Phan on the other hand however is a huge threat, its very underated and hits like a train. Nothing can really switch into it without losing a crap load of hp and Ice Shard actually becomes viable now thanks to the boost and doing more than 2 to things that are 4x weak to it. ._. /phan rant lol


I might just change this to the "Discussion thread" to discuss everything and not just the metagame, but meh.

 

[Anti]

I might just change this to the "Discussion thread" to discuss everything and not just the metagame, but meh.

Well "Discussion Thread" is way too vague of a title. That's like putting "Help Thread" as a sticky so meh, especially when this stuff all relates to one metagame or another in some way, shape or form (especially given how broad the term is itself).

Also, Heracross was a top-tier OU Pokemon in early DP. It isn't falling because it lacks power (like Electivire and Weavile have, for example), but because OU seems to be too fast and powerful for Heracross at times. Even now, it can stop make a murderous impact because it packs such a huge punch. UU is a slower tier, and it also is somewhat weaker defensively than OU. That means Heracross will probably do better against UU offense than OU offense.

On the defensive side of things, don't overestimate UU's ability to handle Heracross' insane power. With SR down, Yanmega dies the turn it comes in if it switches into CB Megahorn (even though it resists it). Dusclops and Rotom are both 2HKOed by Night Slash even if they run max HP/max Def. Even Nidoqueen isn't a foolproof counter, as Heracross does happen to learn Earthquake, which will not only clear the way for Heracross in all likelihood, but also for anything else that Nidoqueen potentially stopped cold. And yeah, I know you're going to yell moveslot syndrome, but Stone Edge still 2HKOes max/max Rotom. (Sorry D_A, but your calc is wrong. Stone Edge does 49% minimum.) I don't even want to hear about Dusclops who can't do anything to Heracross anyway bar randomly Pain Splitting (which is easy to exploit if you have something at low health), not to mention it's 88th in usage rofl. Speaking of low usage, we have Weezing at 56, which loses to the SD set if it's trying to play defense anyway.

The point is that on paper, there is a logical argument to say that Heracross can be stopped. Still, the Heracross user can predict too, and if one wrong prediction means you have a very good chance of losing a large portion of your team to Heracross alone, you're basically giving a case of the offensive characteristic (since even the Ubers like Garchomp need at least a fair amount of skill to operate effectively). Heracross packs power that is considerable by OU standards. You can use obscure stuff like Dusclops and Weezing to counter it I suppose, but that just speaks to how powerful it is.

I don't think it's impossible that it would prove to be UU material, but I don't think it's likely. Heracross has too many weapons and too much power (not to mention awesome typing and fair defenses) for UU to hold it back imo. Of course, only an actual test would see who's right (if Heracross ever ends up falling that far - remember how long it took Donphan to finally fall off the radar).

As for Dugtrio, that's just a special case, and not because of the bogus "no counters" thing. It's even more impossible to weigh Dugtrio's value in UU than it is with the others here (since this is all theorymon, essentially) since Dugtrio is a trapper, and its value is measured in how much it helps its teammates and breaks the opposition's offense and/or defense.

These could go any way, but they're worth a try if they ever manage to fall out of OU. I don't UU like at all but idk, sending stuff down that can destroy entire teams in OU play worries me, but if my hunch is correct, the testing system will get rid of old Hera or whoever else that is causing trouble. Or I would hope.

 

[Malevolent Mismagius]

In my opinion, Heracross is still a very powerful pokemon, but no, it cannot sweep whole teams. Although he packs one heck of a punch, he really was outclassed since Scizor got BP+technician. He doesn't shine in OU, but that's just because there's Scizor. He would be too powerfulfor UU though, definitely. Having said this, there are counters too it. In my opinion, until Scizor stops kidding itself, Heracross is just destined too stand in the shadows of Scizor.

 

[Chaostorm]

I Shall say that Heracross should be in BL if it seems broken in UU , as well as it isnt used alot in OU ....

 

[dark_seeker]

I Shall say that Heracross should be in BL if it seems broken in UU , as well as it isnt used alot in OU ....

I simply have to disagree as a pokemon's position isn't exactly all about usage!
look at donphan.no one uses him amd he is still ou!like-wise for elcticvire!
He is just to powerfull for uu and bl and i think if used correctly can be devestating.Its another matter that not many people realize that!

 

[Arch_2008]

I simply have to disagree as a pokemon's position isn't exactly all about usage!
look at donphan.no one uses him amd he is still ou!like-wise for elcticvire!
He is just to powerfull for uu and bl and i think if used correctly can be devestating.Its another matter that not many people realize that!

No
The OU and UU tiers are described by Usage.
The BL tier is to ban pokemon from UU that are too strong.
That's where the names "Overused" and "Underused" comes from, their usage.

Tier Definitions:

Ubers - Pokémon too powerful for OU; a catch-all playing field. Anything goes as far as Pokémon allowed.

OU - Pokémon who are used frequently in battle. Since our focus is on battling COMPETITIVELY, one can safely assume that Pokémon used often in battle are stronger than most other Pokémon because the object of competitive play is ultimately victory in battle, which is achieved by using a "powerful" team.
USED OFTEN, STRONG

BL - These Pokémon are not seen as often as those in the OU tier, but are considered too powerful for UU play. These Pokémon ARE NOT considered any weaker than Pokémon in the OU tier.
USED OCCASIONALLY, STRONG

* The need for a BL tier may at first glance seem questionable. However, it is important to represent usage as well as power in the tiers. Those Pokémon in the OU tier serve as a threat list of sorts; they tell you what Pokémon to keep in mind and what one should aim to counter when building a team. This is highly useful for veteran players and invaluable knowledge for people new to competitive battling.


UU - Pokémon not used often, that are relatively weak.
USED RARELY, WEAK

NU - Pokemon considered essentially unusable.
NEVER USED, VERY WEAK

 

[dark_seeker]

No
The OU and UU tiers are described by Usage.
The BL tier is to ban pokemon from UU that are too strong.
That's where the names "Overused" and "Underused" comes from, their usage.

well to a extent yes but not all about usage!
Why is donphan and E-vire still in ou!they are certainly not used enough to be ou!

 

[Arch_2008]

well to a extent yes but not all about usage!
Why is donphan and E-vire still in ou!they are certainly not used enough to be ou!

How is Vire one of your cases?
It's still at position 31, from what I saw last, of course it's used enough to be in OU, considering how many other pokemon were used.
And donphan's still getting more uses then the ro-forms, and Milotic. So it's still good enough to be in OU

 

[dark_seeker]

How is Vire one of your cases?
It's still at position 31, from what I saw last, of course it's used enough to be in OU, considering how many other pokemon were used.
And donphan's still getting more uses then the ro-forms, and Milotic. So it's still good enough to be in OU

oh I dont see any of them that often.And donphan is used more then th ro-forms :/
Then your probably right!its all based on usage i guess.My bad!
But I still think there is a hint of ability in the determination of pokemon's position I mean you look at base stats and movepool and ability to sweep/wall and then decide.Well thats what I thought.
Guess I may be wronG!

 

[Arch_2008]

Some of the pokemon's tiering is based upon the power.
But most of it is based on usage.

Onto another topic:
I wonder what the next suspects will be?
With testing month almost over for shoddy, I'd also like to see how they vote.
I personally would LOVE to see Crobat in BL. Piece of crap can just Hypnosis when I switch in my Registeel, and continue to annoy.
Not to mention the fastest taunt in the game.
Shaymin; I wouldn't mind seeing it going into BL. It can be a real menace to some teams, as well as annoy the hell out of some other players.

 

[SoulRed12]

Anyone else notice how rain teams are seriously overpowered? Especially in lower tiers.

Double speed for swift swimmers, plus 50% boost to water moves. Kingdra alone, can rip through teams especially the variants with dragon dance. That plus bulky rain users like uxie (who is also in UU) and crobat mean the temporariness of rain isn't really a problem. Plus the fact that damp rock keeps the rain up for eight turns. The only real way to deal with these guys, is to lose a pokemon to one of them and then switch in tyranitar or hippowdon for the sandstream. Those two do indeed make rain dance a little less overpowered, in OU anyways.

In UU, the overpower is even more profound. Hippotas and snover are the only surefire ways to get a change in whether, and nobody runs them unless they've got a dedicated sand or hail team. Even so, they're so weak they keel over when a pikachu breathes on them.

What is one to do in UU? There are a few things; especially toxicroak. But everything else, namely golduck (cloud nine), and water absorb pokes, die to Mr. Ludicolo and his almighty grass knot. Toxicroak, while not weak to any of ludi's moves, can't do much to him short of poison jab in which case the rain user can just switch to kabutops for the e/q. Toxicroak really isn't that bulky regardless, so a good smack from just about anything will be the end of him.

I've actually supported Ludi's move into OU (or BL, as long as it's out of UU) but I don't really have the testing experience to confidently judge how this would affect the rest of the UU metagame. From what I can see though, it wouldn't affect much aside from decentralizing UU rain teams and making it harder for them to dominate. Basically it would allow rain teams to have somewhat of a counter in things like golduck and water absorb poliwrath, which they would have to find some other way to deal with rather than another swift swim sweeper who can occasionally sweep whole teams by himself, nevermind other waters.

Stalling seems to be the only way to deal with many UU rain teams, and depending on the team that usually means sacrificing three or four or five pokemon sometimes to get a specific pokemon in just as the rain ends. That sounds pretty close to the definition for uber pokemon. Pokemon with protect can help by stalling out turns, but again, bulky rain users like Uxie mean that eventually they get the rain going again after it ends.

Toxicroak is indeed a decent counter to rainers, but I don't want to be forced to have a toxicroak just to take care of rain teams. That means I need to keep one specific pokemon just to deal with rain teams, and if I don't have it, I'll be swept.

With crobat gone, bulky rain leads like uxie can't be quickly taunted unless you're using electrode or some strange mismagius lead, or something; electrode leads carrying sash tend to always get up rain which makes it ridiculously easy for the rest of the team to sweep. And I do remember something like that being in the category for uber support pokemon.

Obviously we can't move "rain dance" into OU or something, but I think the removal of ludicolo from UU would at least help.

 

[Calum.]

Heracross would be ridicoulsy over powered in UU or even BL

I use the CB Variant, which can break entire stall teams.



Skarm is 2HKOed, so anyone stupid enough to switch in Skarm is made quick work by Cross.

Dusknoir / Rotom, die to Pursuit / Night Slash and who in their right mind would burn Cross

Celebi, dies a BP 720 Atk after STAB SE, etc

Bliss, meh yeah

Hippowdon, usually a 2HKO

And some other member, maybe Tenta is 2HKOed and sometimes OHKOed, provided Tenta has set up Toxic Spikes

CBCross is an absolute menace, and is one of the best Rotom / Dusknoir trappers thanks to its amazing ability Guts.

If I see Cross in UU. I would, personally, Click the Find Tab, and Instantly quit thousands of times until its usage rises.

Hardly anybody actually remembers that Heracross unlike other physical sweepers:

Luke / Mence / Gyara / Scizor / TTar / Vire etc etc etc

Enjoys Burns and Paralysis

/endRant

EDIT: Deoxys has fastest Taunt, after that Electrode

 

[dark_seeker]

I believe calum has hit the bulleye on what I was trying to say!thanks for that!
Id like to add that heracoss does well in uber(scarf set can do wonders!)
not many UU pokemon come close to surviving in uber.,or any at all.

 

[Arch_2008]

I'd honestly like to know why the hell Walrein is still in UU?

With the inclusion of all NFE's, Walrein works really well on a hail team, coupled with a snover as the lead.
I mean, if its' incredibly bulky stats (for UU) weren't enough, it has Ice body, which combined with leftovers, heals up to 12% of his health PER TURN, now couple that with the fact that "stallrein" can set up a sub on just about any other wall, and force a switch out, this is really annoying to take down.

Sure you could switch in a Fighting type, and attempt to KO it, but he'll attack, and switch out to a counter, and since NO fighting types in UU can carry a recovery move, makes it really hard to take him down.

The only real counter, I believe is to toxic him, but an experienced player willleave him untill he is sure that his opponent will not statsus it when it comes in.

Basically; Walrein is broken in UU, as long as Hail is in play