Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[Ooka]

Um, Mamoswine is OU. Piloswine should be UU, and Mamoswine should be OU, seeing as how there is a definate difference between the two.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Um, Mamoswine is OU. Piloswine should be UU, and Mamoswine should be OU, seeing as how there is a definate difference between the two.

I guess the same is true for Porygon2 and Porygon-Z and Pikachu and Raichu then? Some others, too, maybe.

EDIT: Wait. Piloswine is strictly worse than Mamoswine. Why would anyone use it? o.O

 

[Ooka]

There's a difference there, Pikachu gets the Light Ball, and Porygon-2 has better defenses than Porygon-Z, so it gets used as a wall. There really isn't anything better about Piloswine than Mamoswine.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

By the way, I was pretty sure Dugtrio was OU. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ooka]

Well, this is straight from Marriland, the only things I've edited are under the Updates section.

 

[Shiny Umbreon]

Yes, update that, please, if nobody disagrees. o_O

 

[Faceless*]

Are you serious?! Piloswine is even used?! No, Mamoswine doesn't really have what it takes to be in OU

Being resistant to both weather-based teams doesn't give it any boost, heck, it's so lesser used people don't expect an Ice Shard revenge kill on Salamence

If Mamoswine had Swords Dance, it would be a MUCH different story, and Piloswine to be UU? haha, come now, lets not even talk about the pre-evos, no point in using them, AT ALL even for UU battles

As Shiny Umbreon mentioned, the ONLY reason Porygon2 is still used after Porygon-Z is created, Porygon2 provides much more Bulk than Porygon-Z while still pulling off it's coverage, Ice Beam, Tri Attack, Thunderbolt, Dark Pulse

OU and UU is a BIG difference, All Mamoswine's difference from Piloswine is the 30+ on attack and 30+ on speed, and if you're even going to mention the HP and Sp.Atk difference, I'm just going to stop reading

 

[Ooka]

Are you serious?! Piloswine is even used?! No, Mamoswine doesn't really have what it takes to be in OU

Being resistant to both weather-based teams doesn't give it any boost, heck, it's so lesser used people don't expect an Ice Shard revenge kill on Salamence

If Mamoswine had Swords Dance, it would be a MUCH different story, and Piloswine to be UU? haha, come now, lets not even talk about the pre-evos, no point in using them, AT ALL even for UU battles

As Shiny Umbreon mentioned, the ONLY reason Porygon2 is still used after Porygon-Z is created, Porygon2 provides much more Bulk than Porygon-Z while still pulling off it's coverage, Ice Beam, Tri Attack, Thunderbolt, Dark Pulse

OU and UU is a BIG difference, All Mamoswine's difference from Piloswine is the 30+ on attack and 30+ on speed, and if you're even going to mention the HP and Sp.Atk difference, I'm just going to stop reading

Actually, I'm the one who said that about Porygon-2.... I don't even think you did read...

 

[Faceless*]

I guess the same is true for Porygon2 and Porygon-Z and Pikachu and Raichu then? Some others, too, maybe.

EDIT: Wait. Piloswine is strictly worse than Mamoswine. Why would anyone use it? o.O

Shiny has mentioned this first AND you picked on the wrong subject to quote so you're not reading.

And since you either didn't bother to read or couldn't find a way to back yourself up about my comment, Mamoswine is BL currently

I mean heck, it's considered UU in Smogon, but I don't really trust them

 

[celestial_okami]

I mean heck, it's considered UU in Smogon, but I don't really trust them

Actually it has already been noted by many there that the tier list on Smogon in sore need of an update. Mamoswine is considered to be BL by several there.

For example, since when are nidoking, pinsir, and Kangaskhan BL? They're UU, I'm pretty dang sure...and same with poliwrath. Too many BL pokemon IMO that should be either OU or UU. for example, how is thick club marowak BL? That thing is OU all the way. It lols at many physical walls and destroys them with ease :0 And how is /THE/ best finisher in the game, dugtrio, BL?

And IMO, tauros and ambipom should stay in the same tier, whether it's BL or OU.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it seems to me that either you clearly don't understand the difference between OU and BL or I am sorely mistaken in my interpretation of your intentions. The only difference between BL and OU is use not power, and the whole point of BL's existence is to separate pokemon from the UU tier. I severely doubt that whether a pokemon is used enough in the metagame to be BL or OU is that important to you.

One person's excellent explanation of BL's relation to OU - "Powerful pokemon which aren't popular right now."

As for the pokemon you mentioned, I believe that at Kangaskhan's position in UU is being considered at Smogon.

I honestly don't believe Machamp should be in NU. He should be moved to BL, especially considering Double Battles. He has No Guard and DynamicPunch, and using him can make moves like Zap Cannon useful. He also as good enough Attack to put a dent in a lot of Pokémon, and even though he isn't all that fast, I don't think that really stops him except against a full fledged special sweeper of the Psychic type (Azelf for example).

That's just my take on this. Everything else is fine.

You don't seem to understand what I was saying. I was not saying that Machamp deserved to be in NU, I was saying why it was where it is. Why is Machamp not NU? Its too powerful for other pokemon in that tier. Why is it not UU? Its too powerful for other pokemon in that tier. Why is it OU and not BL? Its used more than other pokemon in that tier.

I think the main problem is that people aren't thinking about why one would want to move a pokemon between tiers.

A pokemon should be moved to a higher tier (Uber/OU+BL/UU/NU) if it is too powerful for those in the bracket it is currently in. That it can (or can't!) be used effectively in a higher tier doesn't matter.

A good case for this argument - Shedinja should not be moved to Ubers because it can see reasonable use there (and it can, just read some analyses!) because it isn't too powerful for UU and not too powerful for OU. If we move pokemon because they can see use in a higher tier then we end up with situations like this.

Similarly, we (probably) shouldn't move a pokemon like Tentacruel because it isn't too powerful for UU pokemon battles that it warrants its removal to the higher tiers despite its popular use their for its Toxic Spiking ability.

There are certainly more examples to be had, I am sure.

- - - - - - - -
For reference, here is a post from the Smogon discussion with their list of pokemon in tier considerations.

Current Discussion
Kangaskhan
Crobat

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff

UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath
-Hitmonlee
-Leafeon
-Clefable

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Empoleon (Medium)
-Regigigas (Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)
-Flygon (Very Weak)

So just to make things clear, those in the "BL waiting list" are those which are on the Smogon tier list as UU pending changes to BL.


Last comments for this post. I am not trying to shut this discussion down! I am just trying to stop people from arguing on fairly pointless topics such as a pokemon's BL versus OU status, and from saying that pokemon deserves to be in a certain tier for illogical reasons.

 

[Ooka]

Alright, so then maybe we should start discussing more about the pokemon, so we can debate why they don't belong in their current tier.

 

[Faceless*]

Alright, so then maybe we should start discussing more about the pokemon, so we can debate why they don't belong in their current tier.

I did discuss about Mamoswine, currently you're the only one to disagree yet you give no reasons rather than the ones I have explained

 

[Ooka]

What do I disagree about? Seriously, I'm obviously not the only one that disagrees since I'm not the one who made the original tier list ._.

 

[Faceless*]

Um, Mamoswine is OU. Piloswine should be UU, and Mamoswine should be OU, seeing as how there is a definate difference between the two.

Is that easier for you to read or remember?

If you are saying you're not disagreeing, change Mamoswine to BL

 

[ABYAY]

The fact about Mamoswine is that it has some really high attack and some nice HP. If it gets boost from a Baton Passer, then it has a lot of power behind it to keep it flowing. Sadly, its sp. def doesn't keep it alive to my Starmie's surf. It runs pretty good with Ice Fang, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and if you want, Double Edge.

The thing about Mamoswine that debates it is that it has good stats, runs in both damaging weathers (pretty good additive), but it just doesn't have enough to be OU in my opinion. It survives my Weavile's Swords Dance Brick Break with only some HP left, but it gets Weavile out of the way with Stone Edge. Packing 400 attack is another thing.

I'm all over the place I know; It's just that it runs okay without support, but with it, it can be pretty powerful. My vote for goes in the tier right under OU (I don't care too much of tiers, so my knowledge is limited.)

 

[celestial_okami]

People don't seem to read the whole thread before they post, as evidenced by ABYAY's post, nor do they seem to have the correct interpretation of the tiers at base. I think that will make this discussion quite difficult.

Also, not too many people here have experience doing UU battles. I am trying myself to encourage more UU battles and get more experience myself, but I am not able to get in as many battles as I would like. One of the few people I have been able to get UU battles against is Romance Hero.

Lets talk about a few easier examples - Namely Clefable and Ninetales.

Clefable has a huge moveset, can make itself immune to status, is immune to spikes and stealth rock, can go physical, special, or support, and has only one weakness. On the other hand none of its stats are exceptional and it isn't very fast. Is its extreme unpredictability too much for UU to handle?

Ninetales has good speed and sp. defense, low but acceptable sp. atk, and access to a good list of attacks and status moves. However, it has poor HP and defense, and being a pure Fire type makes it weak two of the best attack types in the game, namely Rock and Ground (and not to mention gives it an SR weakness). Still, fast hypnosis or a burn, workable special attacks, access to Nasty Plot, and a decent ability which lets you switch in easier could be enough to say it needs to take a step up out of UU.

 

[Faceless*]

Double-Edge should NEVER be run with Mamoswine, a STABbed Earthquake and a Super Effective Stone Edge/Ice Fang does more than it

but se here, he agrees with me to place Mamoswine on BL, why haven't you made the edit yet Kazaam?

 

[Ooka]

Because I can't make such a big edit on the Wii, it only shows half of the edit under the post...

Anyways, I think Clefable is fine where it is, mainly because Clefable's immunity to those things doesn't give it any higher base Defense. And it isn't used enough to make it BL.

Also, I think Ninetails is fine where it is, used too much for UU and not strong enough for OU.

(If I misunderstood your post, just correct me)

 

[Faceless*]

Oh wow ._.

At least ask Shiny to edit the post then XD

 

[Ooka]

Hey Shiny Umbreon, can you edit the first post for me, with the Mamoswine update?