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Religion and Atheism

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    • Seen Sep 18, 2020
    You can't say you "believe there is a heaven and hell" and "A god and a devil" but then go on to say you aren't religious. That's oxymoronic. You are a Theist by the sounds of it.
    Theism doesn't necessarily mean religious adherence, though. You can believe things, but don't need a given code to exercise those beliefs by. You could say it's a 'personal religion', but I think it's easier if we only use the word religion to denote mass belief systems.
     

    dithyrambos

    PHANTOM girl
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    • Seen Apr 8, 2012
    At the moment I consider myself an agnostic theist. I don't know if there is a god, and much of what science contributes to the theory of how the world came to be make much more sense than it's religious counterparts, but I acknowledge that God/gods may exist and choose to believe in Him/them -- because, you know, if it turns out there actually is a hell, I don't want to call it my home after I die. I also acknowledge that the particular religion I was raised in may contain more apocrypha than most most people are aware of or even care to know. Perhaps, at the very end of it all, it is revealed that the God from the Christian texts does not exist. Perhaps we should all be worshiping the gods of Hinduism. It's hard to justify one religion over another when the only thing one has to go on is faith.

    Basically, I guess you can say I live my life based on Pascal's Wager. And I quote:
    "Pascal's Wager seeks to justify Christian faith by considering the various possible consequences of belief and disbelief in the God of Christianity. If we believe in the Christian God, the argument runs, then if he exists then we will receive an infinitely great reward in heaven while if he does not then we will have lost little or nothing. If we do not believe in the Christian God, the argument continues, then if he exists then we will receive an infinitely great punishment in hell while if he does not then we will have gained little or nothing. The possible outcomes of belief in the Christian God, then, are on balance better than the possible outcomes of disbelief in the Christian God. It is better to either receive an infinitely great reward in heaven or lose little or nothing than it is to either receive an infinitely great punishment in hell or gain little or nothing." read more.

    I believe there is a heaven and hell.A god and a devil but i don't believe anymore than that and i could careless about religions.I have no religion but the way i choose to run my life.
    That's called "Non-Sectarian"/"Non-Denominational", my friend. ;D
     

    Hassan_Abdillah

    Wayfarer
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    Blaise Pascal is hands down one of my most favorite Philosophers, along with Descartes.

    But I dont buy the Pascal's Wager in totality. Conceptually I think it is valid, but to place ones faith solely on a "wager"...meh Id think twice. On the other hand though, Pascal's Wager is right in considering the "consequences" of our belief, while most atheist worldviews do not consider the plausibility of consequences upon death. Quite an important factor to ignore Id say.
     
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    Basically, I guess you can say I live my life based on Pascal's Wager. And I quote:
    "Pascal's Wager seeks to justify Christian faith by considering the various possible consequences of belief and disbelief in the God of Christianity. If we believe in the Christian God, the argument runs, then if he exists then we will receive an infinitely great reward in heaven while if he does not then we will have lost little or nothing. If we do not believe in the Christian God, the argument continues, then if he exists then we will receive an infinitely great punishment in hell while if he does not then we will have gained little or nothing. The possible outcomes of belief in the Christian God, then, are on balance better than the possible outcomes of disbelief in the Christian God. It is better to either receive an infinitely great reward in heaven or lose little or nothing than it is to either receive an infinitely great punishment in hell or gain little or nothing." read more.
    The one problem with Pascal's Wager is that there are countless religions in the world, most of which tell you that you can't believe in any other gods. Why is Pascal's Wager only for Christianity? Why not Hinduism or Islam? The way I look at it, if another religion is actually real and you end up going to their version of hell for worshipping another god, you end up in a lose-lose scenario - you're in hell and your mortal life is inconvenienced by having to abide by religious rules/attend ceremonies.
     

    Hassan_Abdillah

    Wayfarer
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    The one problem with Pascal's Wager is that there are countless religions in the world, most of which tell you that you can't believe in any other gods. Why is Pascal's Wager only for Christianity? Why not Hinduism or Islam? The way I look at it, if another religion is actually real and you end up going to their version of hell for worshipping another god, you end up in a lose-lose scenario - you're in hell and your mortal life is inconvenienced by having to abide by religious rules/attend ceremonies.

    Thats the most basic and fundamental flaw of the wager.
     

    Ninetales1

    Japan-flavoured Europhile
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    Well, there certainly are a lot of Christians, Atheists, and Agnostics here... All very interesting. Now why don't I offer some opinion from a different religious perspective:

    I'm always hesitant to consider myself a religious person--because on one hand, I firmly adhere to a religion, but on the other, when most people say "religious" they imply "Christian", which I'm not. Instead I am Pagan--meaning, in a nutshell, that the higher power I believe in is the spiritual aspect of nature herself (I say herself because of the depiction of the Earth as our mother). I picked that religion partly because my mother practised it for a while, and partly because I liked its interplay with magic.

    That leads to one of my points: the kind of faith (or lack thereof) one chooses to believe in comes from one's characteristics and experience. Once chosen, it feels right and makes sense. Even so, everyone has their own unique opinion of what they believe in--whether consciously or subconsciously, people make their religion (or atheism/agnosticism) their own. They interpret it in a way that makes the most sense to them.

    There aren't really any pagan churches, but the church I went to held one belief that I really admired: the notion that all religions and belief systems point to fundamentally the same thing. Even atheists believe in the betterment of the self--just without any notion of a higher power. That betterment of the self is one common aspect of all religions, along with a sense of connectedness. An atheist might experience the latter through a sense of community--i.e. being around friends, or even realising that all people have such mundane things in common as being human and having life. Each religion expresses such fundamental beliefs (which seem simply rooted in human nature) in its own unique way--different nuances of the same thing.

    I think that religious conflict arises from either the failure to realise the above, or someone's notion that some specific practice of some religion is causing harm to people (which may or may not be true). Either way, those things are misunderstandings, just like the misunderstandings we may have about certain other people. Though the misunderstandings between religions are nigh impossible to remove, they can be mitigated by bringing their fundamental practices and beliefs into the light. For many times we fear what we do not know.

    (Paganism, for example, has quite a history with such misunderstandings, due to it being labeled as devil worship and such. Even today many people frown upon Wicca, a section of paganism, for its practice of casting spells, but mostly that's because they don't realise that Wicca advises against controlling or harming others with such spells, not to mention its fundamental vow to "let it harm none".)

    I believe that the religions that are out there are meant to be used as guidelines, rather than strict doctrines. They are meant to be systems of beliefs and practices that one can choose to adopt. The person might also choose to be eclectic, borrowing ideas from several different religions, and/or deciding on their own beliefs and perceptions on how the world works. But once you have a belief system that you can really relate to, it gives you the potential to start to make your life more meaningful. This even applies to atheists--I can bet that any atheist can find some philosophy or principle of life that they believe in, and if that works for them, that's perfectly okay.

    Even I don't hold on to my religion that strictly. Though my beliefs are rooted in paganism, I consider myself eclectic, borrowing deities and principles from other religions if they have a significant meaning to me. Because my religion is not very common, I often find myself explaining things about it to my friends, but I try not to impose my beliefs on them. For me it's kind of awkward to try to explain religion to an atheist, but hey, if they're curious about my beliefs, I might as well explain them, and if they don't believe me, then it's just not their cup of tea, and that's okay.
     
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    But once you have a belief system that you can really relate to, it gives you the potential to start to make your life more meaningful. This even applies to atheists--I can bet that any atheist can find some philosophy or principle of life that they believe in, and if that works for them, that's perfectly okay.
    Definitely. As an agnostic I've got a couple of Dalai Lama books that I try to live by religiously (the pun actually wasn't intended, figure of speech). Being agnostic doesn't mean I don't take religion seriously. A lot of what Buddhists have said about love and compassion (and the basic ideas of many other religions) play a part in how I act. Well said.
     

    Yuoaman

    I don't know who I am either.
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    I am atheist, I just don't understand having faith or belief in something without any evidence to support it - it just doesn't compute. I need to know something exists by observing it and reading about why and how it exists.

    I can see why a lot of people are religious - some people need something like that to comfort them, I just don't. I know for a fact there's nothing greater than myself watching me from above and judging me. It's only myself judging my actions - and I should make decisions based on my own morality, not that prescribed by any other group. Not that I have any problem with other people believing in whatever the hell they want to - what I believe may seem just as crazy to them as their beliefs sound to mine.

    I don't know if anyone else will agree with me on this but I don't think children should be forced into a religion just because it's the religion of their parents. I'm of the opinion that children should be raised without religion until they can make a choice based on their own life. Not having my mother force her own beliefs (she's also atheist) down my throat is something I really appreciate.
     

    dithyrambos

    PHANTOM girl
  • 234
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    • Seen Apr 8, 2012
    Thats the most basic and fundamental flaw of the wager.

    The one problem with Pascal's Wager is that there are countless religions in the world, most of which tell you that you can't believe in any other gods. Why is Pascal's Wager only for Christianity? Why not Hinduism or Islam? The way I look at it, if another religion is actually real and you end up going to their version of hell for worshipping another god, you end up in a lose-lose scenario - you're in hell and your mortal life is inconvenienced by having to abide by religious rules/attend ceremonies.
    Pascal's Wager can be applied to any religion. And because there are countless religions in the world -- many of which, as you've said, ask for your complete loyalty -- you also have to gamble on which religion to believe in. If there is something at the end, and it isn't what we expected, it can be any number of things we've both imagined and could never have fathomed. Not believing in anything at all isn't justified by not knowing what to believe in, so anyone who claims to live by Pascal's Wager will choose a religion ( probably the one of their parents ) and/or live a life in which they feel will get them the results they want (i.e. a ticket to heaven ). This is why I've tossed between being agnostic and non-denominational several times. Should I believe in God? Am I right in living my life according to Christian doctrine rather than Islamic dogma? There's no way in knowing until I die, so I'm just going to do what I feel is right and, most importantly, what I'm comfortable with; what feels most natural.

    Also, Pascal's wager was originally based on the God of Abraham. The writer of the blog from which I've taken my quote has an obvious bias.

    Ninetales said:
    There aren't really any pagan churches, but the church I went to held one belief that I really admired: the notion that all religions and belief systems point to fundamentally the same thing. Even atheists believe in the betterment of the self--just without any notion of a higher power. That betterment of the self is one common aspect of all religions, along with a sense of connectedness. An atheist might experience the latter through a sense of community--i.e. being around friends, or even realising that all people have such mundane things in common as being human and having life. Each religion expresses such fundamental beliefs (which seem simply rooted in human nature) in its own unique way--different nuances of the same thing.
    Ultimately, this is what I believe. It ties in to what I've said in my other posts, too. While I know there are many religions in the world, several of them with conflicting views, there is a common theme among them all. That theme is the one I hold most dearly and take extreme care not to violate. My current interpretation is that we should all seek happiness and harmony; to love the qualities of ourselves and of each other that we cannot change, and to peacefully seek ways to better the qualities of ourselves that can be changed while helping others do the same.

    Yuoaman said:
    I don't know if anyone else will agree with me on this but I don't think children should be forced into a religion just because it's the religion of their parents. I'm of the opinion that children should be raised without religion until they can make a choice based on their own life. Not having my mother force her own beliefs (she's also atheist) down my throat is something I really appreciate.
    I'm going to say I agree with you. No one should be forced to do anything. I once told my mom I was Agnostic and she seemed okay with it, but recently she has been "re-born" and now she's forcing me to go to church with her.

    I still think, if I had a serious conversation with her about my religious views, things will go relatively smoothly. But seeing the picture from her view, I can understand how incredibly afraid she would be. Afraid I'd go to hell, ect..... So, I don't blame devout parents for teaching their children whatever religion they follow, but I definitely think a child should be able to make his own decisions and, if those decisions aren't what the parent was hoping, he/she should still love their child. I don't like hearing stories of parents disowning their kids over religious views. :/
     

    Manaphy.10

    Not Your Average Gamer
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    I think it is very sad how many Christians there are... and then how many actually practice it. Only 43% of "Christians" actually go to church once a week. I think that if you want to be part of a religion, you must practice it, or else it shows how little you actually care about it...

    Also, I agree with the person who posted about how much Christians are stereotyped. I am a Christian, I go to church on Sundays, but I would NEVER try and convert ANYBODY. I believe that religion is a completely personal choice and that nobody has the right to interfere with it.
     

    Azonic

    hello friends
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    lets just say... I got Jesus on my neckalace uss uzzzz

    I'm pretty religious, Christian. I try to follow God's word etc and I go to church every week, and I'm almost always conscious about my actions vs. the Bible and stuffs. But I kind of don't have expectations on the church anymore... I go there but I feel like the pastors are just other ordinary people who have their own interpretation of the scripture and have no more of a connection to God than I do. :s I just don't always have faith that what they're saying is right. In the end, I end up going to church for that extra guidance that I might need, but in the end it is my own opinion and interpretation that I follow.

    No I'm not 100% sure that Christianity is for real, just like how I'm not 100% sure that I'll be alive tomorrow but I believe in it enough to follow it. For me, I was having a really tough time a long while ago when I was a cocky lil atheist, and then I turned to God and things actually started working out to my surprise (no offense intended towards atheists, I used to be atheist and just so happened to be cocky about it).

    And as Manaphy said, I wouldn't try to convert anyone at all. I mean, they have the right to be informed about the religion as a whole, and in the end they should make their own decision from what they think is logical.

    I think it is very sad how many Christians there are... and then how many actually practice it. Only 43% of "Christians" actually go to church once a week. I think that if you want to be part of a religion, you must practice it, or else it shows how little you actually care about it...
    Ehh people will have different opinions on religion. Some think churches are corrupt etc etc
     

    Hassan_Abdillah

    Wayfarer
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    Pascal's Wager can be applied to any religion. And because there are countless religions in the world -- many of which, as you've said, ask for your complete loyalty -- you also have to gamble on which religion to believe in. If there is something at the end, and it isn't what we expected, it can be any number of things we've both imagined and could never have fathomed. Not believing in anything at all isn't justified by not knowing what to believe in, so anyone who claims to live by Pascal's Wager will choose a religion ( probably the one of their parents ) and/or live a life in which they feel will get them the results they want (i.e. a ticket to heaven ). This is why I've tossed between being agnostic and non-denominational several times. Should I believe in God? Am I right in living my life according to Christian doctrine rather than Islamic dogma? There's no way in knowing until I die, so I'm just going to do what I feel is right and, most importantly, what I'm comfortable with; what feels most natural.
    What, in your views, are the factors an individual should consider when he gambles on faith x or y? In other words, why would a person gamble for a certain faith and not the other one?

    Also,

    Also, I agree with the person who posted about how much Christians are stereotyped. I am a Christian, I go to church on Sundays, but I would NEVER try and convert ANYBODY. I believe that religion is a completely personal choice and that nobody has the right to interfere with it.
    If I read you correctly, religion is a choice which is completely subjective and there is no objective/factual basis to it whatsoever, there is no such thing as a "true" religion, even if there were there is not a single way to prove its truth, so better let people practise what they want. This is your implication, yeah?

    Your comment on "not trying to convert anyone" is kind of vague. Do you mean that, in your opinion, it is morally justifiable for a person to preach his or her worldview to others, but not forcefully convert them? Or do you mean that even preaching a worldview with the intention of converting someone else (but not forcing it) is injustifiable, since it is too personal a choice?

    p.s. I seriously dig your avatar.
     

    Black Ice

    [XV]
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    Religion shouldn't be a gamble, just whatever you feel is right. I wouldn't understand gods, but I don't think they'd appreciate it too much if you were part of a religion just because you want a safety net and an easy way out of eternity in hell.

    I don't feel like I need religion in my life. Maybe there's a higher being, maybe not. I don't concern myself with it, and if one exists, it doesn't seem to have impacted my life at all.
     

    Hassan_Abdillah

    Wayfarer
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    I wouldn't understand gods, but I don't think they'd appreciate it too much if you were part of a religion just because you want a safety net and an easy way out of eternity in hell.

    I honestly do not want to get caught up in any sort of debate. But just to make a point here: what most of the religions (especially semitic ones, but some aryan ones as well) ask of you is complete submission to God. So if you choose to follow a religion out of fear of God, then this too would be a form of submission, albeit a very rudimentary one. Most of the times these rudimentary feelings of submissions grow into true submission out of love and respect and hope and whatnot.
     

    Rich Boy Rob

    "Fezzes are cool." The Doctor
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    I don't know if anyone else will agree with me on this but I don't think children should be forced into a religion just because it's the religion of their parents. I'm of the opinion that children should be raised without religion until they can make a choice based on their own life. Not having my mother force her own beliefs (she's also atheist) down my throat is something I really appreciate.

    Definitely. Children shouldn't be indoctrinated into religion, they should decide what (if anything) makes most sense to them when they are old enough.
    As the old saying goes:
    Religion is like having a penis; it's okay to have one, it's fine to be proud of it, just don't whip it out in public and start waving it around. And PLEASE don't shove down my children's throats!


    Pascal's Wager can be applied to any religion. And because there are countless religions in the world -- many of which, as you've said, ask for your complete loyalty -- you also have to gamble on which religion to believe in. If there is something at the end, and it isn't what we expected, it can be any number of things we've both imagined and could never have fathomed. Not believing in anything at all isn't justified by not knowing what to believe in, so anyone who claims to live by Pascal's Wager will choose a religion ( probably the one of their parents ) and/or live a life in which they feel will get them the results they want (i.e. a ticket to heaven ).

    But does it not also make sense that, because throughout history there have been and will be millions, perhaps billions of religions that claim any other is wrong, the odds of choosing the correct one are so small that instead of following a doctrine that are almost certainly wrong, you simply don't bother?
    Who knows, if there is a heaven and hell the true religion could even be something like Pastafarianism or The Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
     
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    Shanghai Alice

    Exiled to Siberia
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    Definitely. Children shouldn't be indoctrinated into religion, they should decide what if anything) makes most sense to them when they are old enough.
    Now here is where I disagree.

    I'm not saying parents should become Zealot Making Machines, but...

    I see no problem with a parent teaching their child their religion. Parents want what's best for their child, and if they feel that their beliefs and practices help them, then there is nothing wrong with passing it on to their child.

    Ironically, it's typically the Cradle Catholics that rebel out of some childish need to be different.
     

    I Laugh at your Misfortune!

    Normal is a synonym for boring
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    Now here is where I disagree.

    I'm not saying parents should become Zealot Making Machines, but...

    I see no problem with a parent teaching their child their religion. Parents want what's best for their child, and if they feel that their beliefs and practices help them, then there is nothing wrong with passing it on to their child.

    Ironically, it's typically the Cradle Catholics that rebel out of some childish need to be different.

    I think it's all in the execution. If they teach it as "this is what I believe because x y and z" then fine. If they teach it as "this is true and certain fact and definitely correct" then I have an objection. At a young age you tend to regard your parents as the font of all wisdom and truth so you just kind of accept anything they say unquestioningly. It's even worse when the scare factor comes in of "believe this or go to hell", because any kid is going to be scared to death of that.
     

    Black Ice

    [XV]
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    I honestly do not want to get caught up in any sort of debate. But just to make a point here: what most of the religions (especially semitic ones, but some aryan ones as well) ask of you is complete submission to God. So if you choose to follow a religion out of fear of God, then this too would be a form of submission, albeit a very rudimentary one. Most of the times these rudimentary feelings of submissions grow into true submission out of love and respect and hope and whatnot.
    Okay, then I'll just say this one thing: I'm pretty sure Christianity, or some branches of it, teach you to fear God. I've never heard of someone genuinely fearing and loving someone at the same time.

    Also, I don't think it's wrong for parents to introduce religion to a child. I think it's wrong when a parent starts to tell the child that it is the only correct religion and that they will go to hell if they ever change their beliefs.
     

    dithyrambos

    PHANTOM girl
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    But does it not also make sense that, because throughout history there have been and will be millions, perhaps billions of religions that claim any other is wrong, the odds of choosing the correct one are so small that instead of following a doctrine that are almost certainly wrong, you simply don't bother?
    Who knows, if there is a heaven and hell the true religion could even be something like Pastafarianism or The Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
    Yeah, you're totally right. I have even toyed with the idea of being fully Atheists at one point, but that hasn't quite worked out for me. I guess I just like the idea of believing in something magical, or mythical. Hell, I even think that movies like The Matrix may be on to something...... Actually, I'd be pretty darn pleased if that were the case. Give me the blue pill, gdmit! Hahaha. But on a more serious note, I've already said before that I don't know for sure if Christianity is the "correct" religion. I'm just going to roll with it because it feels right ( well, not as right as waking up in a vat of pink jelly but that ineed is a different story ) to me. I just follow whatever I feel is in my heart, or what comes closest to what my heart feels is right, and of course what feels logically right. I would never follow a religion that advised me to kill others, for example. I've been toying with Zen Buddhism lately and honestly... I feel a connection to it. And it's much more interesting than most other popular religions.

    While we're on the topic of conflicting religions, has anyone noticed that children reared in their parents faith are basically damned at birth if they aren't lucky enough to be born in the "right" religion? It's rather scary to think about.

    For example: if Pastafarianism turned out to be the correct religion and punished all non-believers by sending them to hell, every person who has posted in this thread would be damned.....
     
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    Now here is where I disagree.

    I'm not saying parents should become Zealot Making Machines, but...

    I see no problem with a parent teaching their child their religion. Parents want what's best for their child, and if they feel that their beliefs and practices help them, then there is nothing wrong with passing it on to their child.

    Ironically, it's typically the Cradle Catholics that rebel out of some childish need to be different.

    But they'd be doing what's best for the parent, based on what the parent believes, not the child. Just because they believe it to be right, that doesn't make it so.
     
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