Shipping Debates

[Vernikova]

But it does get affected by the writing so it won't be there.

The manga obviously "good" enough to stay in America though. I doubt that it's in Europe, even if it was it isn't that popular.

Anyway, show me proof that Wallace and Steven are gay.

 

[RubyJB88]

I don't mind homosexual pairings, but I do not support them as primary ships. Only for sheer entertainment I support Wallace x Steven. But from the manga I think there's validity for Wallace x Winona, cause I could just see the parallels flowing through them and Ruby x Sapphire.

 

[shedinjask]

I never said I had proof. I just said they had good chemistry and work well together, the same things you say about him and Winona. Wallace/Winona is canon, that's true, but that doesn't mean I have to support it.

If everything is affected by writers, and only what the writers write is canon, then I could just as well claim that children in that world are not produced from sex but from pixie dust, and you can't call me wrong because obviously they'd never mention sex in the show so you have no proof.

 

[Spinor]

To say that it is widely accepted through society is a ridiculous claim. First, which society? America isn't the only country in the world. Do you mean just America, the whole world, capitalist societies, democratic countries? Who are these people and where are you getting your numbers from?

Second, even if you were able to demonstrate that "homosexual < strait", that does not by any means mean that it is true. Truth is independent of what the majority of people think. So even if you had reliable figures for that, which I doubt, all it would prove is that there are a lot of prejudiced people out there.

Relating that to the content of this thread (just so this post isn't completely off topic), same sex pairings are legit when we think of the world of Pokemon while excluding outside forces like writers, ratings, target audiences, etc.

I'm talking about average society from all over the world. You don't see 1 out of every 5 people gay, right? More like 1 out of 500, which makes the statement averagely accepted, but still rude since there is a small percentage who does not consider that, unless they have self esteem problems and need A LOT of help, like most emos. Also, I never stated the Gay<Straight thing, it's just the average "non nerdy" translation people get from that.

Where do I get my numbers? WOW! Good question! My lord, I never thought of that! I want to say experience but I'm afraid I'll make us both look dumb :D.

Remember we are talking about possibilities here, we must take writers, ratings, and audiences alike in consideration. So that point is invalid.

 

[Abrogate Nadir]

I'm talking about average society from all over the world. You don't see 1 out of every 5 people gay, right? More like 1 out of 500, which makes the statement averagely accepted, but still rude since there is a small percentage who does not consider that, unless they have self esteem problems and need A LOT of help, like most emos. Also, I never stated the Gay<Straight thing, it's just the average "non nerdy" translation people get from that.

The issue is people's attitudes, what is "accepted through most of society". How many homosexuals there are in existence has nothing to do with general attitudes on homosexuality in this context. You essentially responded with something irrelevant.

Where do I get my numbers? WOW! Good question! My lord, I never thought of that! I want to say experience but I'm afraid I'll make us both look dumb :D.

Why both of us? Wouldn't it only be the person who made a vague reference without any concrete backing?

Remember we are talking about possibilities here, we must take writers, ratings, and audiences alike in consideration. So that point is invalid.[

It isn't invalid because those are all things which come from beyond the fourth wall. In a discussion about two Pokemon who battled on the show, points would be made about strengths and weaknesses, the types of strategies used, etc. "So and so lost because it was written that way" is stale and extremely one-dimensional. Likewise, when one discusses pairings, it should be on the merit of the pairing and events within the story, not outside forces.

That is what it means to discuss 'possibilities'. A framework has been made, and we must work within it.

 

[Vernikova]

The writers could do what they want on the show. They could make babies from mud, so I'll give you that.

I didn't mean to impose in your shipping beliefs. I don't care for the manga, but I don't remember supporting Graceful just saying it's more possible.

 

[Spinor]

Dude...

What we are debating about now are moving pictures being projected into video and added with color made by thirtysomething japanese making up more episodes while trying to keep 5 year olds into consideration and they hire women to act the characters to life so that they can show it on TV/AV translators and then sent to another company at the other side of the world to replace sound and yet again show it on TV wave/Audio Video translating boxes and the episodes are disscused by little Japanese and 'merican men to avoid showing inappropriate stiff that can cause a parent revolt and thus have them both lose $$$$$ and go bankrupt into an Epic Phail. The end.

Where the waffles is your 4th wall now?

 

[Abrogate Nadir]

What we are debating about now are moving pictures being projected into video and added with color made by thirtysomething japanese making up more episodes while trying to keep 5 year olds into consideration and they hire women to act the characters to life so that they can show it on TV/AV translators and then sent to another company at the other side of the world to replace sound and yet again show it on TV wave/Audio Video translating boxes and the episodes are disscused by little Japanese and 'merican men to avoid showing inappropriate stiff that can cause a parent revolt and thus have them both lose $$$$$ and go bankrupt into an Epic Phail. The end.

Where the waffles is your 4th wall now?

Exactly where it was before, with everything you just mentioned existing outside of it. You do understand the purpose of a fourth wall, correct?

 

[Vernikova]

I'm trying to figure out the 4th wall?

 

[Abrogate Nadir]

I'm trying to figure out the 4th wall?

The fourth wall is used to describe the barrier between the fictional universe and the real world where people draw/direct/etc.

Think of it like this: If May and Dawn (since we're talking about same-sex pairings) were talking, and one said to the other "I have feelings for you", would the reply be something like "I'm flattered, but you're just a friend to me" or "I'm sorry, but the writers won't allow homosexuality to exist in a program aimed at children"

The second answer would shatter the fourth wall.

 

[Spinor]

Don't embarrass yourself. Te estas matando tu mismo Guey...

Everything, each and every little factor must be taken into consideration. My explenations for Homosexual shippings should have been the A-bomb, but some people just plain refuse to distinguish it from a foam bat in the hands of a 2 year old :P.

Seriously, give it up. Gay shippings are no-nos.
____
Edit: OK, you beat me in a post, 'tis my reply:

Hit your TV with a hardened Pancake until you see little squares all over the floor.

 

[Vernikova]

Alright, I see what the wall is now.

 

[Abrogate Nadir]

Don't embarrass yourself. Te estas matando tu mismo Guey...

Everything, each and every little factor must be taken into consideration. My explenations for Homosexual shippings should have been the A-bomb, but some people just plain refuse to distinguish it from a foam bat in the hands of a 2 year old :P.

Seriously, give it up. Gay shippings are no-nos.

In a debate, something is only a 'factor' when it has some relationship to the issue. I've explained why something outside the fourth wall is not a factor (and therefore not subject to consideration) and thus far, you haven't been able to refute me. Your last post was merely an extension of something you've kept saying without respite, and it did not even remotely affect the strength of my own claims. No amount of insisting you are awesome and won will change that (but an argument with actual substance, which can stand up to rebuttal will, if you'd care to try)

Edit: OK, you beat me in a post, 'tis my reply:

Hit your TV with a hardened Pancake until you see little squares all over the floor.

I'm sure you thought you were being clever, but this again does nothing to further your own argument.

 

[Spinor]

I would also like to point out that the anime characters themselfs have mentioned the writers.

Movie 3: When Team Rocket saves Ash from a mortifying fall, they said in non-exact quote: "Without you, the writers would put us out of business"

Movie 9:

James:"Diamonds and pearls... *ugh*
Meowth: "Let's get through this season fwist"

You fail.

 

[Vernikova]

So are we done with the gay shippings or are we continuing?

Edit: There are so few times the movies are refered on the actual show. There has been no example of the 3rd nor 9th movie mentioned.

 

[Abrogate Nadir]

I would also like to point out that the anime characters themselfs have mentioned the writers.

Movie 3: When Team Rocket saves Ash from a mortifying fall, they said in non-exact quote: "Without you, the writers would put us out of business"

Movie 9:

James:"Diamonds and pearls... *ugh*
Meowth: "Let's get through this season fwist"

You fail.

Humor which makes light of the existence of a wall is a concept known as "tapping the fourth wall", something commonly done across different literary forms. I'm sorry, but a couple of quotes inserted into a dubbed version of the movies played for laughs isn't the table turner you seem to think.

 

[Spinor]

Tapping? That virtually shatters it. It leaves total proof that the writers are controlling all factors and will NEVER have any intentions of gay shippings.

As I said: You Phail, with the litteral PH.

 

[Vernikova]

Tapping? That virtually shatters it. It leaves total proof that the writers are controlling all factors and will NEVER have any intentions of gay shippings.

As I said: You Phail, with the litteral PH.

It's just a small joke most shows do. I'll say tapping.

 

[Abrogate Nadir]

Tapping? That virtually shatters it. It leaves total proof that the writers are controlling all factors and will NEVER have any intentions of gay shippings.

As I said: You Phail, with the litteral PH.

What the writers intend doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure in our earlier 'debates', I've said the writers will never pair anyone. That doesn't matter. If we're thinking of Pokemon in terms of the world, its characters, what we know, then there is nothing to say it can't happen.

If we allow for what you are proposing, then *all* pairings are out of the question and this entire thread is pointless. Taken further, nearly everything in the anime crumbles and every topic can be reduced to "what do I think the writers would do?" or "...because it was written that way, end of discussion".

And for the purposes of humoring me, are you able to make any point outside of the writers? Something like, so and so don't have good chemistry, their personality types don't match, they live too far away and their dreams would continue keeping them at a distance, there is evidence that so and so comes from a family with strongly religious values and therefore, they would be unlikely to engage in a same sex relationship. Those are all good starts.

 

[Spinor]

And even that kind of joking leaves the point that THERE IS NO 4th wall. I do not wish to quote myself. We are simply debating if the writers will put such shippings here and we will NOT consider the subliminal but only the shown, and obvious, the hints we talk about are shown and do not have the accuracy to support shippings. As well as evidence that the writers may be putting them in subliminaly but that has not shown yet.

If you can't accept there isn't a 4th wall, you may as well make a bat out of nails and keep it close to your TV.