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when did the anime pokemon jump the shark ?

when the pokemon anime jumped the shark?

  • jhoto saga

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • advanced saga

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • pearl and diamond saga

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • BW saga

    Votes: 6 26.1%
  • when Ash leaved to charizard in charizific valley

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • when misty leaves the serie

    Votes: 3 13.0%
  • when brock leaves the serie

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • when tobias defeated ash

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • when cameron defeated ash

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total voters
    23
191
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 45
  • Seen Jul 4, 2015
The show definitely decline in a downward spiral since Tobias defeated Ash. It was not necessarily an unredeemable decision, but than nothing good came in the BW-serieses.
With XY they could save the anime from total annihilation, but that's how worse BW is.
 

Guest123_x1

Guest
0
Posts
For me, the anime jumped the Sharpedo midway through the Johto saga, when fillers were becoming more and more common, and it took longer for Ash to get to the next gym (after all, he only got two badges during the first Johto season, known as The Johto Journeys).
Despite that, I kept watching thinking things would improve, until I stopped entirely some time after Misty left. Misty leaving was another "Jump The Sharpedo" moment in my book.
 
50,218
Posts
13
Years
Here's my thoughts on the moments that "jumped the shark"
  • Misty leaving the series (I know how many fans quit when that happened)
  • Johto's mass number of fillers
  • Unova saga in general (it like got so rushed and everything was ruined)
  • Tobias destroying Ash in the Sinnoh League with little-to-no effort
  • Battle Frontier saga as far as the dub is concerned (loads of fans hate the TPCi voice actors)
  • Serena's epic haircut and redesign (I love the new look but I know there were others who hated it)
 
2,581
Posts
12
Years
  • Seen Nov 13, 2019
Do you know why ''Detective Conan'' is still as popular as 10 year ago ???
Because fans of ''Detective Conan'' knows that conan will take down ''Black Organization'' someday so they feel watching this series worth it .

But Fans of Pokemon anime doesn't know if Ash ever going to win a League ! Everytime Ash lose a league , Their exception decreases.
Therefore , The rating of the show drops after League ark !
Truth is , The Anime Pokemon jump the shark Everytime Ash lose A Real league.
The Anime stuff of Pokemon are seriously Overconfident ! They believe they can least forever as the supreme Kids franchise Because Game Developer Junichi Masuda will do all the Job for them .
I found this from Tumblr--
I will say one thing: Pokemon is having regular TV Ratings (specially for his past). But specially the Diancie movie had bad DVD sales (6000 is bad even if DVD of children anime aren't very popular in Japan). The airing of a movie costs a 2-hour slot and Tv Tokyo could decide to not air a movie special that day. Let's see if they air the movie on July 16th.
I cheek Weekly DVD Sales all the time and ''Yokai Watch'' always in Top 20 while there is no mention of any Pokemon DVD.
 
12
Posts
9
Years
  • Age 31
  • Seen Oct 18, 2020
To me, Pokemon has gotten worse ever since Misty left the show, IMO she was the best thing that happened in Pokemon. I'm not a fan of character replacement at all, but despite that, I still enjoyed AG and to some extent DP. I have many favourite characters as well.
 

Pinkie-Dawn

Vampire Waifu
9,528
Posts
11
Years
Here's my thoughts on the moments that "jumped the shark"
  • Misty leaving the series (I know how many fans quit when that happened)
  • Johto's mass number of fillers
  • Unova saga in general (it like got so rushed and everything was ruined)
  • Tobias destroying Ash in the Sinnoh League with little-to-no effort
  • Battle Frontier saga as far as the dub is concerned (loads of fans hate the TPCi voice actors)
  • Serena's epic haircut and redesign (I love the new look but I know there were others who hated it)
Don't forget Ash releasing Goodra. To some, it was pretty shark-jump worthy.
 
50,218
Posts
13
Years
Don't forget Ash releasing Goodra. To some, it was pretty shark-jump worthy.

Is it me or was Goodra's release moment made it go down in history as the worst treatment of Ash's Pokemon by writers since Primeape? I know Primeape didn't spend that long on the team before he left, but I think why Goodra's release has been received badly is because they made it a forced quick transition to its final stage a la Charizard and Mamoswine, and then they portrayed Goodra as "overpowered". I feel like the release was an excuse for the writers to write out a powerful Pokemon in fear of it overshadowing his other Pokemon.
 
2,581
Posts
12
Years
  • Seen Nov 13, 2019
Is it me or was Goodra's release moment made it go down in history as the worst treatment of Ash's Pokemon by writers since Primeape? I know Primeape didn't spend that long on the team before he left, but I think why Goodra's release has been received badly is because they made it a forced quick transition to its final stage a la Charizard and Mamoswine, and then they portrayed Goodra as "overpowered". I feel like the release was an excuse for the writers to write out a powerful Pokemon in fear of it overshadowing his other Pokemon.

Currently , The one that Outshadowing Ash's Pokemon is Clemont's Luxrey But I don't see Writer ever releasing him !
 
286
Posts
10
Years
Is it me or was Goodra's release moment made it go down in history as the worst treatment of Ash's Pokemon by writers since Primeape? I know Primeape didn't spend that long on the team before he left, but I think why Goodra's release has been received badly is because they made it a forced quick transition to its final stage a la Charizard and Mamoswine, and then they portrayed Goodra as "overpowered". I feel like the release was an excuse for the writers to write out a powerful Pokemon in fear of it overshadowing his other Pokemon.
It's pretty obvious that they had the release planned from the beginning, I don't think it had anything to with it being too overpowered.


I don't think it has jumped the shark. It's had its low points, but I don't think there was any particular moment that led to a continuous decline in quality.
 
2,688
Posts
19
Years
  • Seen Aug 29, 2020
It's pretty obvious that they had the release planned from the beginning, I don't think it had anything to with it being too overpowered.


I don't think it has jumped the shark. It's had its low points, but I don't think there was any particular moment that led to a continuous decline in quality.

Yes, actually, Pokémon has jumped the shark. BW's probably the worst of it (transforming Ash into such an idiot that even Indigo League Ash came across as smarter is one problem with that saga, and at least most of his idiocy in that saga can be chalked off to inexperience due to being a rookie at the time, and don't even get me started on the mess that was the Unova League, or how Ash lost to an obvious rookie easily despite his veteran status, despite Pikachu actually having access to several non-electric attacks such as Iron Tail.), but I'd say they probably jumped the shark when they removed Misty, since a lot of people left the show after that event. In fact, I heard AG had even worse ratings than Johto, and that was considered to be a pointless saga (if anything, AG was the one that truly felt pointless. At least Johto had Ash actually beating his long-time rival in an epic battle, actually increasing in rank, and actually losing with some grace instead of Team Rocket stealing victory from him. AG had Ash pretty much staying at the same rank as Johto, which is definitely not good and not something to be proud of, especially when the entire point of his goal is to get stronger. Not to mention May ended up being replaced with Dawn, who ended up doing the same goal as her, not to mention May alongside Max are now the only characters who haven't gotten at least one Hoso dedicated to them, something the other former members of the main cast did. Even Ash's single noteworthy accomplishment of that saga, beating the Battle Frontier, was treated as a joke in DP, considering that Ash's Pikachu, the same one that beat up a Regice without much problems, ended up losing easily to an Ursaring that wasn't even one of Paul's veteran Pokémon, being a rookie he caught fairly early on in his run through Sinnoh.). The few times Pokémon actually GOT better ratings during AG was in fact when Misty got reappearances. And for the record, Takeshi Shudo mentioned in his blogs that removing Misty before her time came was a mistake, meaning even he realized after the fact that Misty's removal actually harmed the show more than helping it. If even the original showrunner acknowledged that removing a character before her time was a mistake, we've got a definite case of shark-jumping right there. And XY is doing horribly in ratings right now.

Oh, and the movies also have long jumped the shark. The Diancie movie in particular actually did so badly in theaters that they actually had to fire the guy who wrote Pokémon movies since they started making them and replace him, not to mention they are deeply considering not even airing a Pokémon movie this year because even its DVD sales, even by Japanese standards, was extremely poor.

EDIT: Ultimately voted for Misty, largely because that was the main start of the ratings decrease and even Takeshi Shudo admitted her removal may have harmed the show more than helped it, even more notable in that he was one of the people who pushed for her removal. I probably should have stuck with AG, though, since there was a lot wrong with that saga, possibly BW as well.
 
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286
Posts
10
Years
Yes, actually, Pokémon has jumped the shark. BW's probably the worst of it (transforming Ash into such an idiot that even Indigo League Ash came across as smarter is one problem with that saga, and at least most of his idiocy in that saga can be chalked off to inexperience due to being a rookie at the time, and don't even get me started on the mess that was the Unova League, or how Ash lost to an obvious rookie easily despite his veteran status, despite Pikachu actually having access to several non-electric attacks such as Iron Tail.)
Jumping the shark usually refers to a specific change in a show that marks a decline in quality. I didn't like BW either, but I don't think you can call a subjective dip in quality jumping the shark, especially in a series like Pokemon where each saga follows its own formula.


but I'd say they probably jumped the shark when they removed Misty, since a lot of people left the show after that event. In fact, I heard AG had even worse ratings than Johto, and that was considered to be a pointless saga.
Misty leaving was definitely not jumping the shark. You can dislike the decision all you want, but it made sense, and considering what became of Brock by the end of DP I'm glad she left. AG isn't my favourite saga, but it's not like the show went to absolute crap after Misty left (and it's not like OS was perfect either, especially Johto), and even if you did dislike AG, you'd be hard pressed to prove that it's problems were caused by a lack of Misty. Just because some long time fans were disappointed in the decision doesn't mean that it was a bad one, that the show decreased in quality, or that their opinion even matters considering they're well out of the target demographic.

Also, whatever you heard about ratings is garbage. I haven't been able to find any official ratings for the show in America back then, and even if there was a significant drop, it's more likely to do with the end of the initial Pokemon hype and things like DVR and the internet become readily available. I don't think those who make up the majority of viewers (young kids) stop watching based on stuff like that.

It's completely irrelevant what ratings the show gets in America anyway, because the ratings it gets where it actually matters (Japan) are very high.


Even Ash's single noteworthy accomplishment of that saga, beating the Battle Frontier, was treated as a joke in DP, considering that Ash's Pikachu, the same one that beat up a Regice without much problems, ended up losing easily to an Ursaring that wasn't even one of Paul's veteran Pokémon, being a rookie he caught fairly early on in his run through Sinnoh.
That's... not true. Ash winning the frontier was never treated like a joke. In fact, it tied directly into Paul and Reggie's story lines. And Pikachu didn't lose easily to Ursaring (which, by the way, only battled Pikachu over 100 episodes after it was captured and was already shown to be quite strong when it was wild) - it had already been burned by Magmortar and Ursaring won because it activated Guts. It was by no means taken down easily.

And anyway, Pikachu can't be invincible and its power has fluctuated constantly throughout every saga.


And XY is doing horribly in ratings right now.
It's not. See above.
 

Bounsweet

Fruit Pokémon
2,103
Posts
16
Years
  • Seen Sep 17, 2018
I love the Kanto, Johto, and Hoenn series because of nostalgia, if I'm totally honest. Plus objectively, I feel like the quality was just plain good. I like Sinnoh more objectively because I felt that Dawn had a really interesting character arc, since it actually mirrored Ash's a lot in some ways.

Then, Unova happened. That's what totally killed the series for me.

I picked up Kalos/XY though, thinking I'd give it another chance and because I was interested in it while it was still early on in the season so it was easy to pick up, and I actually really enjoyed it. The Clemont and Bonnie duo reminded me a bit of May and Max, and Serena is pretty pleasant. I think XY is doing well (although I haven't seen the past 20 episodes) but it's not entirely fully enough to redeem it from Unova/BW, tbh.
 
2,688
Posts
19
Years
  • Seen Aug 29, 2020
Jumping the shark usually refers to a specific change in a show that marks a decline in quality. I didn't like BW either, but I don't think you can call a subjective dip in quality jumping the shark, especially in a series like Pokemon where each saga follows its own formula.

And considering the fact that XY's ratings are actually quite bad (being only about four at most), yes, it actually IS very bad in terms of ratings, and it's bad enough that it's rarely even watched online going by what Famon, Irregular Hunter Z, and others stated. Heck, on Bulbapedia, the Pike Queen Lucy was even noted to be the lowest-rated episode of AG, and at the time, also the lowest rated episode of the anime, period. When it's got low ratings, especially when Japan not only doesn't even use the Nielsen ratings system, and streaming sites such as Hulu actually bombing in Japan and thus you can't even blame internet streaming for the poor ratings in Japan [and even streaming views, the closest thing to ratings the internet has, indicates that it wasn't impressive even there], it actually DOES mean it's quality is to blame for the bad ratings.

Misty leaving was definitely not jumping the shark. You can dislike the decision all you want, but it made sense, and considering what became of Brock by the end of DP I'm glad she left. AG isn't my favourite saga, but it's not like the show went to absolute crap after Misty left (and it's not like OS was perfect either, especially Johto). Just because some long time fans were disappointed in the decision doesn't mean that it was a bad one, that the showed decreased in quality or that their opinion even matters considering they're well out of the target demographic.

Actually, contrary to what you may claim, Misty would NEVER end up like Brock if she stayed on the show, since unlike Brock, Misty had an actual active goal (becoming a Water Pokémon Master, which does involve a lot of action and battling). A better comparsion is if she turned out to become as stale as Ash. Even during Johto, she still did a lot more than Brock did. Heck, in Master Quest, she actually participated in the Whirl Cup, which is the Water Pokémon Trainer's equivalent of the Pokémon League, so if she went to Hoenn instead of getting kicked out, they most certainly would give her plenty to do.

And if even Takeshi Shudo, one of the showrunners for the original series and part of AG and even one of the guys who pushed for Misty to get the axe over Team Rocket, was able to admit in his blogs that removing Misty as prematurely as they did was a huge mistake and he regretted it, that would indeed indicate that, yes, Misty being removed was indeed a very bad move. Just ask DBZ Fan if you don't believe me. He's read his blogs, so he'd know. It's not just fans who thought it was a bad move.

And for the record, I'm not saying OS was perfect, either. I realize it has some flaws: Namely, Ash getting half his badges without winning against the Gym Leader beforehand in Kanto (heck, at one point he came very close to actually getting a badge without even battling the official Gym Leader), plus releasing several Pokémon without even revisiting them despite promising to do so (ironically, Johto's probably the first and only region to have Ash actually revisit the Pokémon he "released," specifically Lapras and Charizard). And the only reason Ash lost Kanto was because Team Rocket basically forced him to be late for the match and waste three of his Pokémon, not to mention the idiot referees didn't use common sense and delay the match until his Pokémon got better (even then, the Silver Conference and the Orange League more than made up for his bad run in Kanto). But at least it didn't depict Gym Leaders as being extremely cheap knockoffs of Jessie James and Meowth in terms of battling abilities (quite frankly, Kalos is probably the closest we've got to Pokémon actually treating it's gym leaders with the respect they deserve to Kanto and Johto levels), and at least Ash doesn't undergo resets that make him and Pikachu like a joke. Honestly, so far, the only region to have Ash even do moderately better was Sinnoh, and even that forced him to lose via deus ex machina largely because the idiot writers in their arrogance felt they had all the time in the world to get through Sinnoh under the arrogant belief that Generation IV was the last region, thus denying him the opportunity to actually fight the Elite 4 as strongly foreshadowed in the saga, and leading to a really big dud of a region. Oh, and even Brock at least had some use in Johto, unlike in AG and DP where he barely even had a use, to the extent that they don't even pretend to focus on his breeder goal (Brock at least got that Breeder Convention where he returned Vulpix).

Also, whatever you heard about ratings is garbage. I haven't been able to find any official ratings for the show in America back then, and even if there was a significant drop, it's more likely to do with the end of the initial Pokemon hype and things like DVR and the internet become readily available. I don't think those who make up the majority of viewers (young kids) stop watching based on stuff like that.

I was actually talking about Japan's ratings, not America's ratings. And it's actually very easy to find Japan's ratings on this site at least regarding XY. Heck, there's an entire topic dedicated to XY's episode ratings list, even giving the specific ratings of each episode aired, as well as monthly ratings. Look here if you don't believe me: http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=338621 And at least according to one of the people on there, Irregular Hunter Z, who based on his comments is Japanese, XY's merchandising also bombed. And I might as well remind you that in Japan, internet streaming services actually bombed in Japan and thus they don't even do that. Pokeani's ratings also indicated that the AG series and DP series were doing poorly, also BW, though even they did decently compared to XY. And the Diancie movie actually flopped so badly in its theatrical release that they actually had to fire its screenwriter as a result, something neither Destiny Deoxys (which also didn't fare too well in the box office in Japan) nor even Pokémon Heroes was able to accomplish.

It's completely irrelevant what ratings the show gets in America anyway, because the ratings it gets where it actually matters (Japan) are very high.

Actually, XY's ratings are not high at all in Japan. In fact, they're actually pathetic. At most they get about 4.5, and generally are at 3. In fact, they did so bad that they actually had to move it from TVTokyo to TVAsaki or something like that. Don't believe me? Just read this: http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=338621

That's... not true. Ash winning the frontier was never treated like a joke. In fact, it tied directly into Paul and Reggie's story lines. And Pikachu didn't lose easily to Ursaring (which, by the way, only battled Pikachu over 100 episodes after it was captured and was already shown to be quite strong when it was wild) - it had already been burned by Magmortar and Ursaring won because it activated Guts. It was by no means taken down easily.

Doesn't matter. Pikachu was still far more experienced than it. That made it's win against a Regice (which, BTW, had only just been recently caught by Brandon) into a complete joke. They should have had him lose against Paul's Torterra, at least THAT would have matched up with Pikachu's experience level. That's actually why I hated the whole level reset and making Ash's Pikachu lose against Gym Leaders. If they really wanted to give Ash a challenge, they should have done the smart thing and keep Pikachu off and only act as one of his reserves. At least Charizard is actually treated as a reserve Pokémon.

And anyway, Pikachu can't be invincible and its power has fluctuated constantly throughout every saga.

No Pokémon is truly invincible, not even Mewtwo. However, that DOESN'T mean Pikachu should be beaten that easily by Ursaring. It's in fact very similar to Caterpie's defeat of Team Rocket despite clearly being outclassed in every way in Episode 3 of the series, the same exact scenario in fact.

It's not. See above.

The link I just supplied you with would indicate far differently, and BTW, they cited several ratings sites from Japan.
 
286
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10
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I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. The ratings have fluctuated from around 4-7 for years, and no matter what you think, they ARE good ratings (getting 4.0 would typically mean being among the top ten on the channel). You can keep posting that they're "pathetic" but that doesn't make you any more right. People who actually understand how these things work completely disagree with you. Also, it never got moved to another network. it's still on TV Tokyo.

And as I already said, the ratings are basically meaningless. It's a kids show that airs weekly, the quality of the episode has little relevance to the ratings it gets.

Actually, contrary to what you may claim, Misty would NEVER end up like Brock if she stayed on the show, since unlike Brock, Misty had an actual active goal (becoming a Water Pokémon Master, which does involve a lot of action and battling). A better comparsion is if she turned out to become as stale as Ash. Even during Johto, she still did a lot more than Brock did. Heck, in Master Quest, she actually participated in the Whirl Cup, which is the Water Pokémon Trainer's equivalent of the Pokémon League, so if she went to Hoenn instead of getting kicked out, they most certainly would give her plenty to do.

And if even Takeshi Shudo, one of the showrunners for the original series and part of AG and even one of the guys who pushed for Misty to get the axe over Team Rocket, was able to admit in his blogs that removing Misty as prematurely as they did was a huge mistake and he regretted it, that would indeed indicate that, yes, Misty being removed was indeed a very bad move. Just ask DBZ Fan if you don't believe me. He's read his blogs, so he'd know. It's not just fans who thought it was a bad move.
I've read his blogs:

... out of all characters in the show , Kasumi's existence was the least justified. She was there to draw attention of girls, because anime with boys only would be "tasteless" for them.

And why she left the show. After the show got longer, there was a decline in ratings so they thought of changing something about the main characters and the villains.

Because justification of Kasumi's existence was the weakest, she was the most endangered to leave. He says that it wasn't like he wanted to substitute her, but they needed someone with fascinating personality, whose existence was neccessary.
He mentions feeling bad about getting rid of her, but not that it had any affect on the quality of the show. Beyond what he said and your own personal opinions, you haven't given any reason for why Misty leaving affected the quality of the show. Just because fans were disappointed doesn't mean the actual quality of the show went down. Even if AG was objectively awful I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that it was due to Misty leaving.


But at least it didn't depict Gym Leaders as being extremely cheap knockoffs of Jessie James and Meowth in terms of battling abilities
When did this ever happen?


Doesn't matter. Pikachu was still far more experienced than it. That made it's win against a Regice (which, BTW, had only just been recently caught by Brandon) into a complete joke. They should have had him lose against Paul's Torterra, at least THAT would have matched up with Pikachu's experience level. That's actually why I hated the whole level reset and making Ash's Pikachu lose against Gym Leaders. If they really wanted to give Ash a challenge, they should have done the smart thing and keep Pikachu off and only act as one of his reserves. At least Charizard is actually treated as a reserve Pokémon.
Pikachu is as much a main character as Ash, they're not going to make it a reserve. It's power has ALWAYS fluctuated, even in OS. If it didn't then the show wouldn't be exciting because Ash would just stomp through every Gym Leader. Losing to a powerful trainer with a powerful Pokemon due to status effects and the opponent's ability isn't bad writing.


No Pokémon is truly invincible, not even Mewtwo. However, that DOESN'T mean Pikachu should be beaten that easily by Ursaring. It's in fact very similar to Caterpie's defeat of Team Rocket despite clearly being outclassed in every way in Episode 3 of the series, the same exact scenario in fact.
It's really not. The exaggerations you're making are baffling, honestly.
 

Lizardo

Public Enemy
290
Posts
10
Years
  • Age 33
  • Seen Aug 18, 2016
Jumping the shark usually refers to a specific change in a show that marks a decline in quality. I didn't like BW either, but I don't think you can call a subjective dip in quality jumping the shark, especially in a series like Pokemon where each saga follows its own formula.
This. Pocket Monsters is split into five different series (there's a reason it's Pocket Monsters: Advanced Generation as opposed to just Pocket Monsters), each with their own advertised beginnings and endings, and should be judged on their own quality. Whatever issues with the writing in Best Wishes there are, for example, apply to BW only and shouldn't be held against XY - which tends to do its own thing. It's not really one continuous show like The Simpsons is. I make exceptions for Satoshi, Pikachu, and Team Rocket since they're elements that carry over series-to-series, but that's just me.

And as far as Satoshi and Pikachu go, I would argue that BW001 was their "jump the shark" moment. Not just because their main rival - the one who would spend a good chuck of his appearances kicking their ass - that series was a rookie trainer fresh from the lab just three episodes after Satoshi battled Takuto's legendaries, but because BW was where the writers just stopped doing anything interesting with him. None of his rivalries seemed to affect him (ex. just compare Satoshi's reaction losing to Shinji in DP132 with losing to Shooti in BW010), he had no Pokémon like Lizardon, Jukain, or Goukazaru to bond with, nothing to really challenge his character. XY gives Satoshi his talent for battling back, but again, he's really just there.

But as an anime franchise, Pocket Monsters has had so many ups and downs over the last eighteen years that I don't see a general jump the shark moment for it. IMHO - Jouto is a downslide from Kanto/OI, but AG is better than Jouto, DP is better than AG/OS in most areas, BW is the worst of all of them, and XY has been getting better as of late.

That's... not true. Ash winning the frontier was never treated like a joke. In fact, it tied directly into Paul and Reggie's story lines. And Pikachu didn't lose easily to Ursaring (which, by the way, only battled Pikachu over 100 episodes after it was captured and was already shown to be quite strong when it was wild) - it had already been burned by Magmortar and Ursaring won because it activated Guts. It was by no means taken down easily.
He never watched the battle, and for some reason he absolutely refuses to (his loss, really - they're an excellently-written pair of episodes). In fact, he's watched all of fifteen DP episodes and relies on TVTropes to decide his opinions and Bulbapedia for the rest of his info, yet still thinks he's qualified to discuss it seriously. He clearly never seen much of AG either, and admits to having never seen BW or XY. This is a person who thought Pikachu walked over Regice in Satoshi's last Frontier battle, didn't know which Gym Leaders Satoshi lost to in XY, thinks Nozomi is the same character as Shuu, and once compared what he does to historical research (... seriously). He debates by inventing arbitrary rules for how things need to be and moving goalposts when he's contradicted. On many other boards, he'd be seen as a troll. In short, you're wasting your time trying to argue with him.
 
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2,688
Posts
19
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  • Seen Aug 29, 2020
I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. The ratings have fluctuated from around 4-7 for years, and no matter what you think, they ARE good ratings (getting 4.0 would typically mean being among the top ten on the channel). You can keep posting that they're "pathetic" but that doesn't make you any more right. People who actually understand how these things work completely disagree with you. Also, it never got moved to another network. it's still on TV Tokyo.

And as I already said, the ratings are basically meaningless. It's a kids show that airs weekly, the quality of the episode has little relevance to the ratings it gets.

Actually, back in Kanto, it got around 15 at the very least, 17 at most. In fact, the highest rated episode of Kanto, the Ponyta episode, actually topped off at a 17.9 or something like that. THAT'S decent ratings, not a 4. A rating of 4 is actually extremely poor. And for the record, it's not even on the top 10 anymore, and hasn't been for quite some time. And also, the Simpsons and NCIS have been getting ratings in the 20s, and those actually stream their episodes online (heck, you can even watch them on their channels' websites). It needs to be within the 10s to get remotely decent ratings. 9-6 would qualify as average, while 4 and below are actually poor ratings. And BTW, Irregular Hunter Z, a guy who actually is from Japan and actually follows the ratings constantly, noted that Pokémon was doing horribly in that thread I showed you.

And actually, Anime News Network stated twice that it was on TVAsahi, NOT TVTokyo, and that was from a few months ago. Heck, I've even got the sources, both of which Poke245 posted:

*http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-02-03/japan-animation-tv-ranking-january-19-25/.83985

*http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-03-17/japan-animation-tv-ranking-march-2-8/.86006

And as you can see with both Poke245 and Irregular Hunter Z's ratings postings, the Pokémon Anime is actually tanking. And based on the former's statements, even online it's doing horribly (for starters, Pokemon XY has about 163 votes and ranks 7th on most watched cartoons online. Likewise, both Naruto and One Piece actually outrank Pokemon in terms of ratings by a landslide (490 and 466, respectively, meaning it's not even a close race).

And if ratings truly were meaningless, then shows such as Heroes or West Wing would not have been cancelled due to low ratings, not to mention GCB (which actually couldn't even get past a single season before it got axed largely due to poor reception and ratings), Maureen (which only lasted two seasons), or even 30 Rock (which is probably one of the few shows that actually lasted long despite having horrible ratings, which is mostly due to the network trying to push an agenda). For a Japanese example, the Love Hina anime would not have been cancelled due to a loss of revenue or loss of ratings (and in fact, that particular example was particularly infamous for literally cutting the anime short just as it was about to start a new season). After all, since ratings are meaningless, they shouldn't be cancelled due to low ratings. In fact, we wouldn't even HAVE ratings at all. Heck, Detective Conan even now is getting ratings in the 10s, close to Johto's ratings, and that's had two more years of existence than Pokemon had for the anime overall, starting in 1996. Besides, Pokemon has aired at the same time and day since the events of the Porygon Seizure Incident, yet even in AG, where the Pike Queen Lucy episode had the lowest rated episode in AG and at the time the lowest rated episode ever, probably the closest Pokemon has to a dud show, never went this low in ratings, while Pokémon's consistently gotten a 3, maybe a 5 if they're really lucky.

He mentions feeling bad about getting rid of her, but not that it had any affect on the quality of the show. Beyond what he said and your own personal opinions, you haven't given any reason for why Misty leaving affected the quality of the show. Just because fans were disappointed doesn't mean the actual quality of the show went down. Even if AG was objectively awful I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that it was due to Misty leaving.

Except he also indicated that removing Misty may have been a turn for the worse alongside some other factors for the show, especially when he complained about AG's quality, as well as to a lesser extent Johto's quality as well, largely because the executives are trying to make it more kiddified and more of an advertising vehicle. Oh, and for the record, DBZ Fan also noted that Misty's removal was indeed detrimental for the show ultimately, and even noted that he said this as well. Even if I didn't care for Misty or the OS series at all, heck, even if I flat out hated them, I still would say it.

When did this ever happen?

Okay, AG had the gym leaders losing very easily to rookie Pokémon, similar to Jessie, James, and Meowth from Episode 3 when they lost against a Caterpie who was completely inexperienced, barely even alive, and was even at the opposing end of a type advantage (being bug type, while Ekans and Koffing were poison types). The only exceptions I can truly think of for the Hoenn gym leaders are Roxanne (since she was beaten by Pikachu, who is a confirmed veteran), and Brawley (since he actually beat Ash the first time around). DP was slightly better, in the sense that Roarke, Gardenia, and Maylene managed to beat Ash the first time around or at the very least tie with him, although ultimately, they still ended up having Ash beat them first time around later on with his rookie Pokémon. And based on what Lizardo stated, the BW Gym Leaders fared even worse than AG. Kalos is probably the only region other than the original series to actually HAVE the Gym Leaders treated as actually being competent. Half of them (one of whom is one of Ash's current traveling partners) so far have been demonstrated to be very competent and skilled, two of them even beating Ash the first time around, and even the other half managed to demonstrate their skills elsewhere (not to mention in the case of Grant had a perfectly justifiable reason for losing the first time around, since he limited himself while allowing Ash free access to his Pokémon). When seasoned pros such as Gym Leaders lose to rookie Pokémon, it reflects very badly on them. Heck, Jessie James and Meowth's loss against Caterpie in episode 3 is pretty much what gave them a reputation both among fans and in-universe as being horrible and pathetic trainers.

Pikachu is as much a main character as Ash, they're not going to make it a reserve. It's power has ALWAYS fluctuated, even in OS. If it didn't then the show wouldn't be exciting because Ash would just stomp through every Gym Leader. Losing to a powerful trainer with a powerful Pokemon due to status effects and the opponent's ability isn't bad writing.

I don't care if it made it boring, at least it would be realistic. And besides, Ash ended up stomping through every gym leader in Hoenn with his rookies, which is even worse. And yes, I know that Pikachu had its power fluctuated in the OS. It lost to an Eevee, after all right after beating a Dragonite. However, at least the OS didn't resort to level resets, and in fact Ash actually managed to beat Falkner very easily with Charizard and Pikachu. I don't like it when veteran Pokémon are treated like trash, and having power fluctuate does qualify as trash. If you're going to actually have Pokémon be veterans, the least you can do is keep it consistent even if it's boring.

It's really not. The exaggerations you're making are baffling, honestly.

It's not an exaggeration at all. Look, Caterpie ended up wounded from an earlier battle with Pidgeotto (largely due to Ash's stupidity). It also ended up near-dead as a result, Ekans and Koffing managed to take down Pidgeotto earlier, AND they were definitely a lot more experienced than Caterpie was, since it was implied they were familiar enough with their Pokémon (and if Island of the Giant Pokémon is anything to go by, they had them for at least a year, if not more, and I'm going by Japanese dub, not the English dub, which indicated they had them for at most a year). Oh, and JJM were dangerous enough in their debut episode to actually have Ash try to flee, not to mention have their own wanted poster right in front of the police station. Meowth likely was even more experienced than them, and actually was fresher than Ekans and Koffing, and certainly far more fresh than Caterpie. They got KO'd easily, just as Pikachu did with Ursaring (who 100 episodes or not, still hasn't even entered a league yet and thus is still very much a rookie), and got injured beforehand with the guts ability being activated, and Pikachu being a veteran compared to it.

EDIT: While Lizardo is indeed correct in that I haven't watched much of DP, I have followed up on it via summaries, Bulbapedia articles, and places such as Dogasu. And BTW, just because I haven't watched DP much doesn't mean that I don't have a clue about anything that went on. The mere fact that I was able to mention who Pikachu lost to in the Paul battle shows I did know something about it. Honestly, if they really had to have Pikachu lose, they should have had him lose to Torterra, the one Pokémon actually close to his experience level, NOT to a rookie (and yes, Ursaring is a rookie as it hadn't even fought in a league yet).
 
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It's really not. The exaggerations you're making are baffling, honestly.

The only reason I believed Pokemon Anime to be still popular was due to its rating !
Or else , I wouldn't believe Pokemon anime was still popular.
Ya , 4.0 is a regular rating.
Except , Pokemon anime hardly get 4.0 rating now !
Also I like you see this part of the ''Blog'' you post yourself---

And why she left the show. After the show got longer, there was a decline in ratings so they thought of changing something about the main characters and the villains.
Now , Takeshi shudo said that there was a decline in rating which serve as a main reason to replace Misty .
Now , I cheek the rating of all pokemon episode .
Most Jotho series episode receive 9.0 to 12.0 rating however few episode got 5.0 rating .
But , It still cause the writer to change something about main Character so they decide to replace Misty.
So Now that Pokemon barely get 4.0 rating , Doesn't that consider a bad decline in rating ???
May be, This time they need to change something bigger then just a character.

Now for DVD sales , I cheek Japanese DVD sales all the time and I hardly see any pokemon DVD there.
Even though I heard about The release of Pokemon XY series Blu-ray DVD set , I never saw in on Top seller list.
I only seen Pokemon Origin DVD set on Top seller list .
Even now I mostly see DVD set of ''Youkai Watch'' , ''Stand by me Doreamon'' and ''Yugioh Arc-V'' in Japanese DVD/Blu-ray dise ranking .
But no Pokemon.
Multiple source confirmed Low DVD sales of ''Diancle Movie''.
Plus , It earn lesser money then previous movie in Box Office .

As for Merchandise sales , Its tricky to find information about this.
However , Anime News network confirmed Pokemon merchandise sales dropping while Youkai watch taking the Number one spot in Bandai toy sales .

So , TV Anime has 3 important thing--

--TV Rating
--DVD/Blu-ray Dise Sales
--Merchandise sales .

And Pokemon got tanked in all of those 3 thing .
And Forget about Games Popularity ! Just because Pokemon Games are popular doesn't mean the anime is Popular .
''Rockman'' , ''Sonic'' , ''Zelda'' , ''Mario'' and ''Final fantasy'' all had their own anime series but none of them least longer despite being a popular game series.

If it didn't then the show wouldn't be exciting because Ash would just stomp through every Gym Leader.
Who want Gym-leaders that can't even beat a Goodra ?
There no point of fighting Gym-leader if they are that weak .
Ash already beaten 41 gym-leader so there no longer any fun in him beating Gym-leader ! Rather it embarrassing if he still lose to another Gym-leader despite beating 41 of them.
 
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Again: no idea what you're talking about. Pokemon is not The West Wing. That's a nonsensical comparison. All of your opinions are based on random snippets of information you've read and twisted to suit your own needs. The only reason you're so desperate to prove that the ratings are bad is so that you can "prove" that the series would be better off going in the direction you want it to.

As I said, the ratings are basically meaningless as a signifier for quality. Nine year old Japanese kids don't analyse the anime the way we do and likely don't think to hard about the quality. The drop in ratings a) is not as bad as you're making it out to be and b) has nothing to do with the faults you've found in the show.


Except he also indicated that removing Misty may have been a turn for the worse alongside some other factors for the show, especially when he complained about AG's quality, as well as to a lesser extent Johto's quality as well, largely because the executives are trying to make it more kiddified and more of an advertising vehicle. Oh, and for the record, DBZ Fan also noted that Misty's removal was indeed detrimental for the show ultimately, and even noted that he said this as well. Even if I didn't care for Misty or the OS series at all, heck, even if I flat out hated them, I still would say it.
http://www.freewebs.com/rocketshipper/takeshishudosblogs.htm

Read his blog for yourself instead of telling me what you've heard (and likely misinterpreted) from random members. To be honest, I don't really care what Shudo (or any other person you bring up) has said. I'm still waiting for you to explain the effect Misty's departure had and why it made the quality of the series drop. Just because you've found some people who may or may not agree with you doesn't mean that you're right.


Okay, AG had the gym leaders losing very easily to rookie Pokémon, similar to Jessie, James, and Meowth from Episode 3 when they lost against a Caterpie who was completely inexperienced, barely even alive, and was even at the opposing end of a type advantage (being bug type, while Ekans and Koffing were poison types). The only exceptions I can truly think of for the Hoenn gym leaders are Roxanne (since she was beaten by Pikachu, who is a confirmed veteran), and Brawley (since he actually beat Ash the first time around). DP was slightly better, in the sense that Roarke, Gardenia, and Maylene managed to beat Ash the first time around or at the very least tie with him, although ultimately, they still ended up having Ash beat them first time around later on with his rookie Pokémon.
"Rookie Pokemon" is a completely arbitrary term. If every Pokemon had to go through a league before being deemed powerful then the anime would go nowhere. The gym leaders are SUPPOSED to lose. They're there to test trainers, but ultimately they have to lose. They were never presented as weak in Hoenn, and just because they lost to "rookie" Pokemon doesn't mean that they weren't powerful or didn't pose a challenge.

Ash defeating a gym leader with Pokemon he's trained and strategies he's developed is nothing like the punching bags of the show being defeated. It's a total hyperbole.


And based on what Lizardo stated, the BW Gym Leaders fared even worse than AG
This is honestly embarrassing. Watch the damn show for yourself instead of basing your perception of it on summaries and what other people have said.


I don't care if it made it boring, at least it would be realistic. And besides, Ash ended up stomping through every gym leader in Hoenn with his rookies, which is even worse. And yes, I know that Pikachu had its power fluctuated in the OS. It lost to an Eevee, after all right after beating a Dragonite. However, at least the OS didn't resort to level resets, and in fact Ash actually managed to beat Falkner very easily with Charizard and Pikachu. I don't like it when veteran Pokémon are treated like trash, and having power fluctuate does qualify as trash. If you're going to actually have Pokémon be veterans, the least you can do is keep it consistent even if it's boring.

They got KO'd easily, just as Pikachu did with Ursaring (who 100 episodes or not, still hasn't even entered a league yet and thus is still very much a rookie), and got injured beforehand with the guts ability being activated, and Pikachu being a veteran compared to it.
Nobody cares what you think. The show is for kids, not you, and they're not going to sideline the face of the franchise and one of the most popular and marketable Pokemon out there just to appease you. Pikachu is not unbeatable and just because Ursaring hadn't entered a league yet (seriously, what kind of requirement is that? Did Torkoal suddenly get a massive power boost just because it got its ass handed to it in the Hoenn league?) doesn't mean that it wasn't powerful. And it didn't defeat Pikachu easily.


Famon said:
But , It still cause the writer to change something about main Character so they decide to replace Misty.
So Now that Pokemon barely get 4.0 rating , Doesn't that consider a bad decline in rating ??
The 4.0 rating is for XY, which premiered a decade after Misty left. People have gotten into and grown out of Pokemon in that time. Misty has no affect on the current ratings.
 
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The 4.0 rating is for XY, which premiered a decade after Misty left. People have gotten into and grown out of Pokemon in that time. Misty has no affect on the current ratings.

Except , I'm not talking about Misty !
Also Doreamon , Crayon Shin-chan , and Detective Conan still retain their high rating unlike Pokemon.
 
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All I'm going to say on the matter regarding this is that I'm not even speaking for myself. I'm not watching the show at all anyways (and BTW, I at least watched the first few episodes of DP anyhow). However, as you said, the anime's for kids, so if they're doing that badly in regards to ratings, even the kids are disliking the show. I hate to say it, but if you truly think 4, heck, even 3 is a "decent rating" despite the fact that several other shows get 10s or more, even in Japan, you truly are delusional, Grey Wind. Kids are an easily replaceable resource for ratings, meaning if you can't even get high ratings from that group with the large amount of reserves there, the show truly is doing terrible. Famon put it far better than I ever could regarding the ratings, and BTW, the fact that AG managed to get extremely bad ratings (seriously, the Pike Queen Lucy episode got around a 4, maybe a 3.9, not a good set of ratings at all), AND that Misty brought ratings up indicates that Misty's removal did have something to do with AG's drop in ratings.
 
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