I think I'm going to be sick: US teen killed because he was gay

[U.Flame]

I just hope the law isn't exaggerated, like if someone commits a personal crime, and it's considered a hate crime. Hate crime laws are good for when it really is a prejudice motive.

 

[Dawn]

The degree it is, is determined based on the person's motivations.

Um. Your own article contradicts you. I mean you linked me straight to a small block of text that blatantly disagrees with you.

Nowhere in that article does it claim motivation to be a factor. It only mentions intent and level of premeditation.

Consider the fact that we punish people more harshly for killing someone with a "bad" reason (As if there are any good reasons.) and yet if someone kills someone for no reason it's not a hate crime and therefore is punished less harshly.

Yeah it seems pretty clear to me that hate crime laws are essentially just "reverse discrimination". It sickens me that such things are upheld by our courts.

 

[-ty-]

Um. Your own article contradicts you. I mean you linked me straight to a small block of text that blatantly disagrees with you.

Nowhere in that article does it claim motivation to be a factor. It only mentions intent and level of premeditation.

Consider the fact that we punish people more harshly for killing someone with a "bad" reason (As if there are any good reasons.) and yet if someone kills someone for no reason it's not a hate crime and therefore is punished less harshly.

Yeah it seems pretty clear to me that hate crime laws are essentially just "reverse discrimination". It sickens me that such things are upheld by our courts.

Intent and motivation are essentially the same in the context. I do not see a contradiction.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

I honestly think that the victim could care less for a person's motivations. I mean, assuming you were still sentient in death, you'd be the same amount of upset if you knew it was because "you were black/gay/Jewish/Hispanic/Asian/Martian" or not, because your life was ruthlessly taken away from you.

So why should we care about motive? Murder is murder, after all, whether its a "hate crime" or not.

 

[-ty-]

That's an interesting opinion. I've never thought about it that way before. Now that I do, I find myself agreeing with you.

It's my opinion that murder is one of the few crimes that can be punished with extreme prejudice. By that I mean all you need to know is whether they did it or not and you're ready to punish them to the maximum extent of the law. (See: Be able to prove it in court) The actual harshness of the punishment should be dependent on what degree it is and nothing more.



At the same time, singling them out is giving preference where none is deserved. (As if to say, these guys deserve it less than those other guys. That's the subliminal message that is being sent, believe it or not.) Doing such undermines the goal you're trying to achieve because it's failing to properly teach kids that violence and whatnot in general is wrong.

When I think about it, I honestly don't think our schools have what it takes to realistically fight this problem. Perhaps we simply need to consider other ways to fight the problem that might be more successful?

It is not about who deserves more than the others by any means. Everyone falls into the categories I wrote in my comment. Everyone has an ethnic background, skin tone, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, gender, ect. There is not preference given to anyone.

I think that there are few other buffers, other than education, that are between children and parents. When a parent teaches racism to a child; who is going to help that child learn tolerance so that they can function in society? Although parents have the right to raise their children, they do not have the right to teach behaviors in which inhibit a child's progress in society. Like this skinhead family, who is to stop them from teaching their child that it is wrong to kill another person simply b/c he is gay, with the acknowledgment that his motive has yet been determined in court. If he did so, with that motive, why not educate him about tolerance, and the repercussions of intolerance?

I honestly think that the victim could care less for a person's motivations. I mean, assuming you were still sentient in death, you'd be the same amount of upset if you knew it was because "you were black/gay/Jewish/Hispanic/Asian/Martian" or not, because your life was ruthlessly taken away from you.

So why should we care about motive? Murder is murder, after all, whether its a "hate crime" or not.

Well, one thing you have to keep in mind is intent. If I am driving and dose off, and then hit a girl riding her bike, then I have killed someone. My intentions were to drive to work, and not hurt anyone. Should I face the same penalty as other murder.

More pertinent to your comment. If I am at the bar with my spouse, and a drunk guy tries to make-out with my spouse and will not listen. I might take a swing at him; if it becomes a physical altercation, I might cause the other guy internal bleeding, and death. My intents that night were to have a good time, not get in a conflict. Then they transformed into, I want to get this obnoxious person away from my spouse. however, I end up killing him. Should I face the same sentence as a person who pre-arranged another's death? Someone who truly intended to kill someone.

I think that in this case, it was purposeful, and pre-arranged. That is speculation though.

 

[インフェルノの津波]

So why should we care about motive?

Because without it this wouldn't be a Hate Crime, it would be classified under other murders/manslaughter.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

There is some misinformation going around here. Intent and motive are not the same thing. Intent is pretty much the difference between an accidental death and deliberate murder. Motive is the reason the crime was commited.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

Because without it this wouldn't be a Hate Crime, it would be classified under other murders/manslaughter.

So just "run of the mill" murder isn't as bad? So if Mr Joe killed you today just because he didn't like the colour of your socks opposed to the colour of your skin, it's different? Would it be different to you? Would you be a different kind of "dead"?

I think regardless of reason murder is a horrible thing to do. I mean, besides insanity, why the hell else would you be murdering someone if there wasn't any "hatred" involved? This "hate crime" thing is a pretty stupid definition if you ask me because you can't have most crimes without some sort of hatred involved, really. There ARE exceptions, like the man who steals to try to get food or quench his addiction to a substance, but most times you are going to be committing a crime against something because there's something about it that you hate.

 

[-ty-]

There is some misinformation going around here. Intent and motive are not the same thing. Intent is pretty much the difference between an accidental death and deliberate murder. Motive is the reason the crime was commited.

I said that they were the same in the context used by a member who does not know legal rhetoric; they were essentially conveying a concept in casual jargon. I did not mean to say that they were the same within legal rhetoric however.

 

[インフェルノの津波]

So just "run of the mill" murder isn't as bad? So if Mr Joe killed you today just because he didn't like the colour of your socks opposed to the colour of your skin, it's different? Would it be different to you? Would you be a different kind of "dead"?

I think regardless of reason murder is a horrible thing to do. I mean, besides insanity, why the hell else would you be murdering someone if there wasn't any "hatred" involved? This "hate crime" thing is a pretty stupid definition if you ask me because you can't have most crimes without some sort of hatred involved, really. There ARE exceptions, like the man who steals to try to get food or quench his addiction to a substance, but most times you are going to be committing a crime against something because there's something about it that you hate.

No. True, it is murder no matter how ways you see it, however Hate Crimes can be fueled by the suspect's relatives, friends, town, state, hell even country if it's strong enough. Hate Crimes are a completely different category of crime. "Mr. Joe" could not like my socks, I don't why, but it's a motive, a crazy one at that. Unlike a Hate Crime, your particular scenario would be viewed by the public a plain old crazy. They wouldn't support it/fight. They would want him to jailed, but that's it.

People can kill no reason. I could kill the next person who walked across my street, because I felt like it. Maybe there's something wrong with me. But it's not a Hate Crime. It's just murder. Hate Crimes are just...well Hate Crimes. They're usually targeted one minority/majority for a reason, which is hate. This guy could've gone on a Homosexual killing spree. Because he hated them, or just disliked them. If that was his motive, then we have to stop him, because his hate could spread.

Murder doesn't spread. Hate, however does.

 

[Dawn]

why not educate him about tolerance, and the repercussions of intolerance?

It's just that for the reasons I said before I just don't think schools have what it takes to solve the problem. Perhaps in combination with other efforts, but simply making schools teach tolerance wouldn't make a significant difference, I don't think.

It's not that it's a bad idea. I'm just not sure it's the best solution to the problem.

 

[-ty-]

It's just that for the reasons I said before I just don't think schools have what it takes to solve the problem. Perhaps in combination with other efforts, but simply making schools teach tolerance wouldn't make a significant difference, I don't think.

It's not that it's a bad idea. I'm just not sure it's the best solution to the problem.

I see what you mean. Do you have any other venues that are easily accessible to educate children about tolerance? Should there be parenting laws? I am just not sure what other choices we have to prevent these types of crimes. I think we all agree on the fact that we want to inhibit these types of crimes from happening. Anyone have any ideas other than the education of tolerance? Or a different way to utilize the education system to teach tolerance?

 

[Dawn]

We as the people could make a stronger effort to educate through the media and in "real" circumstances. I honestly think that a strong effort from the people themselves is probably most likely to have the largest effect. I think that perhaps the core of the problem is either bad parenting -or- perhaps the hate is contagious, so to speak. Either way, I think that a strong effort by the people themselves is most likely to have the largest effect.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

I said that they were the same in the context used by a member who does not know legal rhetoric; they were essentially conveying a concept in casual jargon. I did not mean to say that they were the same within legal rhetoric however.

Murder and hate crimes are legal issues, so it is appropriate to use legal rhetoric.

 

[-ty-]

Murder and hate crimes are legal issues, so it is appropriate to use legal rhetoric.

well, if I say, this is just heinous. It may not be defined as heinous by legal standards, but as an informed person just trying to make a statement we shouldn't hold members to such a high standard to critique rhetoric. I think we should try focusing on the concepts. Oh, BTW do you have any ideas of how we can prevent heinous crime like this?

 

[FreakyLocz14]

well, if I say, this is just heinous. It may not be defined as heinous by legal standards, but as an informed person just trying to make a statement we shouldn't hold members to such a high standard to critique rhetoric. I think we should try focusing on the concepts. Oh, BTW do you have any ideas of how we can prevent heinous crime like this?

Yes.

Lighten up on strict firearms laws. If more LGBT people were armed for self-defense, the assailants would know that the group they are targeting are ready and willing to exercise 2nd Amendment remedies to the problem.

 

[Dawn]

Lighten up on strict firearms laws. If more LGBT people were armed for self-defense, the assailants would know that the group they are targeting are ready and willing to exercise 2nd Amendment remedies to the problem.

I don't find this argument making sense because they can already do that with current firearm laws.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

I don't find this argument making sense because they can already do that with current firearm laws.

Not around here. You need a license to carry a firearm, and most counties have a no issue policy.

 

[Esper]

Not around here. You need a license to carry a firearm, and most counties have a no issue policy.

I hope you're not suggesting we change things so that you wouldn't be required to have a license to have a gun.

I think schools are the perfect place to start to teach kids about tolerance and acceptance - two things that make people less hateful and less likely to commit horrible acts of violence. When I was in, I think, the 3rd grade we were taught a little about discrimination. Basically they said that in the past people who were different weren't allowed to go to the same schools and kids who would have been friends would never have met each other. I learned a little from that, and from things like it that throughout school. Some other ways I became more tolerant and accepting were through my school's allowing a GSA on campus and having some of the members talk to us in our 'human interactions' class, which is a kind of sex ed/tolerance building class. Getting a chance to talk more openly with someone in a safe environment probably did some good and took out some of the ignorance-based hatred that some of the kids had.

 

[Corvus of the Black Night]

There's a problem with that though.

People just don't care enough to try to implement it.

Seriously, I was essentially a bully punching bag for all sorts of stupid reasons in early school years for example, and the people watching the kids, even though they could plainly see it, did nothing. Why? "Oh, that's just a kid thing, they'll grow out of it."

I think society needs a mentality change.