7th Gen The Ultimate Lillie Roast thread (fans, please stay away)

Lillie is perhaps one of my most hated Pokemon NPCs. She's intrusive, annoying, and literally makes the entire story about her. The entire storyline is stolen away from the MC, and instead, it's like chaperoning her across four islands and watch her bloody Cosmog grow up. I just felt the game was about her and her mom, and her brother, and basically everything Lillie. At first, I didn't mind her, but she's just as intrusive in USUM as she is in SM, and I also didn't like the fact that the entire story hinged off of her character development. I have a million more reasons, but I'm hoping to see your opinions. Happy hating :)

She is just so damn useless, and most of the game play is baby sitting her, or getting her out of trouble. And don't even get me started on the anime. You can obviously tell the writers love Lillie to death, as she seems to have been the one to get the most development. Her Vulpix is getting the Pikachu treatment, and the got a bloody Icium Z. She doesn't even have a Z-Ring for Christ sake. The whole being afraid of Pokemon was alright at first, but it just became so stupid towards the end. Like the episode that was supposed to be a Lana episode, the stoutland. They just had to remind the viewers on who is actually the best character in the cast. Woo, you got on a stoutland, good job. Lana found a Z-Ring, so you can't try to one up her.

The whole game could have been solved if she had just given us cosmog in the first place. Or if she kept it in a damn pokeball, but nooooo. We mustn't question the great and beautiful Lillie.

Decibel575 said:

She is just so damn useless, and most of the game play is baby sitting her, or getting her out of trouble. And don't even get me started on the anime. You can obviously tell the writers love Lillie to death, as she seems to have been the one to get the most development. Her Vulpix is getting the Pikachu treatment, and the got a bloody Icium Z. She doesn't even have a Z-Ring for Christ sake. The whole being afraid of Pokemon was alright at first, but it just became so stupid towards the end. Like the episode that was supposed to be a Lana episode, the stoutland. They just had to remind the viewers on who is actually the best character in the cast. Woo, you got on a stoutland, good job. Lana found a Z-Ring, so you can't try to one up her.

The whole game could have been solved if she had just given us cosmog in the first place. Or if she kept it in a damn pokeball, but nooooo. We mustn't question the great and beautiful Lillie.

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Agreed. The thing is, Lillie is just plain annoying. Her character "development" ended up being BS because she literally takes a hat off. I did that in the seventh grade when I found it can cause baldness. Now I haven't come from a household of parental abuse, so I wouldn't know much about what Lillie is going through, but here's something I've got to get out. Firstly, Lusamine likely never really beat Lillie. The game never really gave too much evidence of Lusamine mentally torturing Lillie, simply being too controlling. In fact, the maximum level of abuse I feel Lillie incurred was neglect from her mother, but you have to understand, Lusamine lost her husband, Mohn, and was desperately trying to find him. Clearly, she was already off her rockers. I'm not trying to defend Lusamine, but I've seen people say they can relate with Lillie, but really, can they? She was probably much better off than them.

Also, I find a lot of the people I talk to IRL who say that they think that Lillie deserves the attention because she survived abuse also say that Pokemon is a kids game. So why the bloody heck would there be overt mentions of psychological abuse in a fricking children's game? Answer me that. I don't care if people like her or not, I just hate her, and I like to be vocal about it :) Another thing about Lillie that bugs me is that the story quite literally revolved around her growth as a person. And there we were, with our sardonic little smile, walking right behind her, to save her Cosmog because she was too useless to take care of Nebby (also, am I the only person who dislikes that nickname?). Funnily enough, I see a lot of people saying they felt bad that she was gone, but I was elated, jumping with joy when that ship sailed off.

Lastly, in all the other games, it's really cool and memorable (at least for me) to see how far you've come. There are just several reminders of how far you've come, and how far you've still got to go, even after you've beaten the league. But in this game, it felt like Lillie's goodbye was the final ending more than the actual league, as though her send-off was more important than us becoming the strongest trainers in Alola. I hope to see more interesting roasts, cause I really need to vent right now, and yes, many people tell me to control the anger and talk to someone, but Pokecommunity is so much better :)

That mental abuse things, I'm goung by that line about how if you aren't perfect then you are useless to her. I just assumed she treated her like a doll. A lot of real mothers do that. But yeah, if they wanted to make Lillie the main part of the story, make her the damn playabke character. But her character growth in that scene was her moving away from her mother's influence. Still bloody BS though, even then you couldn't find a pokemon to actually help me in battle

In other games, I really felt like the Pokemon League was just one more step because we had the Battle Frontier or something. While USUM sort of did better, with your starter popping out of it's Pokeball in an attempt to show how far you had come? I think. The original just felt empty, and while I did feel a little sad by Lillie leaving, it was only because of Stockholm syndrome. I was trapped with her so long that I actually started to like her a little

Why didn't Lillie go with Hau for the story? At least Hau actually liked her. Even your in game character smiles like she's telling her the most boring story and won't shut up. Hau was way more likeable. Upbeat, jolly and determined to improve himself.

I blame USUM Lusamine for why Lillie was so useless, annoying, and potentially growing at a slow pace too slow to help and all.

Important message: Alright, so while a topic like this can get quite opinionated, it's fine if people can share their opinions. However, topics like this are prone to getting heated quite quickly. Should this topic spiral out of control, I'm gonna have to lock it. Keep this in mind!

But anyway, while I liked Lillie as a character, I have to admit that her arc didn't have the same nuances in USUM than it did in SM. This is probably because of how Lusamine's goals were guided differently and she wasn't under the influence of Nihilego, and from there she'd take out her frustrations on Lillie and disown her for the Ultra Beasts. However, it was quite refreshing seeing Lillie actually become a trainer, but her Pokemon selection was quite lacklustre. Sure, it's her favourites, but it's this late in the game and everyone's using fully-evolved Pokemon while there she is with a mere Clefairy. This was quite off-putting and made the postgame Faba Rainbow Rocket battle harder than usual.

SM focuses too much on Lillie to allow other characters to shine, but it's also plagued with poor pacing that makes Lillie's development rather stilted, leaving no real positive for the game to lean on. Lusamine's motives are also incredibly asinine in SM to the point where it feels foolish to want to help Lillie at all.

Lusamine's motives are much improved in USUM, but the entire climax of the game was horribly executed, leaving us with no conclusions to any character arcs, meaning Lusamine and Lillie didn't benefit much in the long run. I appreciate that USUM tried to give Hau a bit more of the spotlight instead of putting all of their eggs in Lillie's basket, but again poor pacing weakened what had the potential to be a more enjoyable character arc.

In general I feel Alola's characters are just weaker versions of older characters: in Lillie's case, she is a less successful iteration of N, not wanting Pokémon to get hurt (or keep them in Poké Balls), disliking battles, and dealing with an abusive parent for most of their life. But where BW allowed other characters their opportunity to grow while also giving N complexities that made him successful, SM had a myriad of characters who have no value save for Lillie, and Lillie's intrusiveness and ineptitude mean it's easy to dislike her. And with her being the only real character in the game, it sets the entire narrative up for failure.

just wondering mate, aren't you banned from smogon? just curious... heheheheh

Quasimoto said:

just wondering mate, aren't you banned from smogon? just curious... heheheheh

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Hey, let's keep things on topic.

Lillie can get especially infuriating when the game focuses on how she is becoming stronger as a person. For me, Pokemon is a very nostalgic experience. New games are meant to have new characters and all, and I respect that. What I dislike is the fact that Gen 7 makes her the heroine of the story. See, we do literally everything, and then I feel that GF tried to make everything about how Lillie became braver or something, while we're trying to stop a psycho from unleashing apocalyptic monsters. And then she starts crying or something... I apologize if I come off as callous, but I really didn't feel anything when Lillie stood up to her mother. I felt that it was an obstruction to the story. However, when N stood up to Ghetsis, it felt different. Why? Because N actually felt betrayal. He was a likable character and one who didn't require constant chaperoning. There are other characters also, like every XY "friend" like Shauna and Tierno, who were completely unnecessary, who I dislike, but Lillie is especially annoying because of none of them (except Shauna at the final battle with Lysandre with Yveltal/Xerneas) really impose on the main storyline. Also, I agree with the fact that Lillie is a failed reincarnation of N. Another been there done that problem. However, I'm curious as to why some people like Lillie. Not that I want to change your opinion, but I just want to know why.

I know this thread is a bit dated but, I've been playing through Moon again and wanted to vent myself. I absolutely abhor Lillie at this point. Not for any plot point reasons, just because she's damn annoying. You can't go two steps without being pulled into a cutscene and forced to listen to her babble about nothing, watch her be absolutely useless, or boost her non-existent confidence with dialogue options I don't even want to choose. "Oh, I ran across a bridge past some Murkrow, did I do good?" Like, no, you loser, you can't fight, all you did was run, so, why are you even asking ?

I'm just trying to get to the Elite 4, or whatever it's called in these games, but, I can't get anywhere dealing with this idiot. I almost threw my DS across the room in frustration after being pulled into the 3rd or 4th unskippable cutscene within 10 minutes. She isn't a tolerable character, which makes it even worse. I hate useless "damsel in distress" characters more than any other. If it was Gladion I had to deal with, I wouldn't be nearly as annoyed because he's at least infinitely better, a good character all around, compared to Lillie. She reminds me of Hinata from Naruto, another character I can't stand because of how useless and annoying she is, literally only there as a plot device and a love interest. Damn, I hate Lillie with a passion. Had to get that out. 😭

Ok Lillie she is just b a d. The way of how the story is just basically wrapped all around her, I'm just like ok I get it she is shy then gets confidence. It was just boring having to babysit her all the time, like I didn't want the story or plot to only move when I found her dang Nebby. I also just absolutely hated with an extreme passion when at night in the games, her clothing and hat sort of glow or faintly shin in the moonlight, quite literally just shoving it in your face that she's in the spotlight.

I watched the Anime and I hated Lillie. She's so annoying. From her character to pokemon to even her goddamn voice, I hate her to the very core. I don't play the game, but I can already tell from a few videos that game Lillie is a hundred times better than what anime Lillie even wishes to be. I hate anime Lillie with a burning passion to the point where seeing her on screen makes me roll my eyes. These are my reasons:

1. Her behaviour towards Lusamine

I've seen game Lusamine before and boy, she was off her rockers. Absolutely crazy. I liked watching game Lillie go against her mother because Lusamine was actually a deranged ass. It was great.

Anime Lillie, however? Not even close. Anime Lusamine was actually a good mother and watching Lillie give attitude to her mother for the most stupid things makes my blood boil. Apparently, Lillie hates Lusamine because she:

1. Never spends time with Lillie
2. Evolved Clefairy
3. Was so weak she got caught by Nihilego

...which is just stupid.

Okay fine, the first one is sort of understandable. I can see where she's coming from. But does Lillie even understand that the reason why Lusamine couldn't spend time with her is because Lusamine needs to you know...work? Does Lillie even wonder how they're so filthy rich to the point where they have a mansion with butlers and maids all over the place? How about the car she takes to go to school? Not to mention the fact that her mom has attempted to try and talk to her. Still, I completely understand what she's saying here.

And then all logic flies out the window with reasoning number 2. What? This would have been somewhat reasonable if the Clefairy was owned by Lillie OR if her reasoning was understandable. However, that's not the case. The Clefairy was Lusamine's. Not hers. So why is she so angry about her mom doing something simple and reasonable as evolving a Clefairy to Clefable? It's because Clefairy was cute. That's the reason. Lillie was angry that her mother evolved her Clefairy to a Clefable because it's not cute. What the hell?

And reason number 3? It makes me really angry. Lusamine saved Lillie's ass by letting Nihilego catch her on purpose so Lillie wouldn't get hurt and what does Lillie say? "My real mother wouldn't have been caught by something like this" (Paraphrasing, but you get the point). I get that she was talking to a Nihilego merged Lusamine, but how could Lillie say that after her mom, in front of her, protected her? I got really angry at that line.

2. She has little to no character agency and everything she gets is always handed to her

I've only watched until season 3, but I'm pretty sure I have enough to talk about why. Lillie needs other people to gently nudge her on the shoulders before she tries something. For example, Snowy. Literally the only reason why Lillie even has an alolan Vulpix is because Mallow recommended giving the egg to her. She didn't ask for it, Lillie just got recommended to take care of it.

After that, Lillie is forced into touching Snowy because of Team Skull and that's pretty much how it went with Pikachu. She got forced into it, so now she can. Next is the alolan Sandshrew episode. Lillie is forced to fight Tyranitar because she got stuck with the Sandshrew. Lillie has to be stuck with the Sandshrew to force herself into fighting Tyranitar. After that, she gets a Z-crystal without even getting a Z-ring and as an added bonus, she gets an Ice stone because "Charjabug found it". What's worse is she doesn't even use it to evolve Vulpix because "Vulpix doesn't want to". I guess Lillie really got that salty from her mom evolving Clefairy with a moon stone.

And about losing her trauma for touching pokemon, she did jackshit to deserve that. Only time I remember her touching pokemon is the Vulpix, Pikachu and Stoutland episode (which, by the way, was LANA's episode). But all it took someone to say it was an misunderstanding all along and that's all it takes. She didn't even try that hard to remove her fear. Just a few encounters and a "it was a misunderstanding" and that's all it takes.

3. Shes the "princess" of the pokemon anime and everything has to be about her

We have 6 cast members and she's the one that's the most pampered out of all of them. Just look at a picture with all of them together. She's always somehow the most obvious because her colour palette is all white and light blue. Is this supposed to be some Angel symbolisation? Not to mention the amount of screentime she gets

Going back to the Lusamine and Nihilego episode, it's SO obvious she's the main character there, even in the presence of Gladion. The episodes were all Lillie and it makes me so annoyed. She had so many episodes all about what happened because Lusamine even bothered to save her. What.

If I like the Gen VII games, it surely isn't because of Lillie. Sure, she had her problems and it was nice to see parental neglect addressed in a Pokémon game, but it bothered me that practically the whole of S/M centered around her and her family's problems - of which I wanted no part in. US/UM was slightly better in this regard with the story focus being shifted slightly towards the player characters themselves, Hau and the URS, but it was the same otherwise. There were a million more interesting characters they could have focused on, like the aforementioned Hau, Dulse and Zossie, the Trial Captains and Kahunas/Elite Four, Looker and Anabel, Ryuki... why Lillie, or any of the Aether family for that matter? My complaints extend to the merchandise as well. Out of the human characters in Gen VII, she had the most merch - which means that other characters that I would have liked to see merch of (again, the URS) didn't get one piece. It was all Lillie, Lillie, Lillie, Lillie for a while; eventually, I had quite enough of her. Unfortunately... it seems the trend continues, because she's recently gotten her fourth alt in Pokémon Masters. (Goddamnit, DeNA!)

Bonus points: I find the ships between her and the Alola MCs overrated as well. I used to like MoonLilyShipping mostly because my friends over at Tumblr/Twitter shipped it, and back then, I didn't want to be shunned for going against a fandom that was MASSIVELY protective of the ship and of Lillie herself. Yet, when I did my Ghost Monotype run in Ultra Sun during the early quarantine, picturing my MC going for anyone that wasn't Lillie (mostly Hau, Ilima, Sophocles and Zossie) was practically a running gag. Heck, I was also glad Hau's crush on Lillie was cut in favor of having him seemingly express more interest in the MCs instead. Good going!

I liked Lillie, but I wish they had her follow you around, rather that pop in, have some dialogue and then run away again. Bish, if I'm going to see you 5 times per island, just follow me around and give me dialogue cues when you need to infodump at me. Make it like Pokemon Yellow, except with her instead of a Pikachu. Make it part of the game where the more you talk to her, do stuff she likes, she can give you stuff or drop for info that you might need.

It's what I liked about the very beginning of X/Y. You and your friends exploring an area together.

WARNING: I AM OBSESSED WITH GLADION YET HATE LILLIE, SOMETHING RARE IN THE POKECOMMUNITY!

Hey! I'm REALLY late to this show, but I have always hated Lillie. For majority of the reasons already stated, and since I don't have anything to say about the games except that they were completely based on her with no good reason, I'm going to skip straight to that anime.

First is the previously addressed relationship with her mother. Lusamine is trying, she really is. And in the anime, Lusamine is a halfway decent mother, considering what she's been through, with losing her husband. And Lusamine is a good parent. Professor Burnett states that Lusamine would rather spend time with her kids than be at work - notice I said KIDS, AS IN, SHE HAS MORE THAN ONE, POKEMON! - and then 5 or 6 episodes later, Lillie is yelling at her for being weak and pathetic! I mean, Gladion has a good reason to be mad, but do you see him screaming at Lusamine? NO! Because he understands that the Ultra Beast is controlling her and playing on her desires - which might add, she wouldn't act on - and that she had no control over what she was doing. BUT LILLIE IS PLAYED OUT TO BE THE FREAKING HERO OF THE ARC, WHEN IT WAS ASH AND PIKACHU WHO SAVED HER, AND SHE WASN'T EVEN DOING ANYTHING BUT YELLING, YET IT WAS ALL BECAUSE OF LILLIE! Oh, and as per usual, in Lillie's presence, Gladion was her slave and did whatever she asked, because Lillie blamed him for "Running away and leaving me to deal with mother" and forcing him into more guilt than he was already experiencing. And Gladion only existed when it was convenient for Lillie's character arc, of course!

And don't even get me started on the stupid clefable scene where Lillie brings out a doll, and magically Clefable breaks out of the Ultra Beasts conrol without even attacking her, when every other one of Lusamine's Pokemon were stronger, but couldn't,

An episode that infuriates me majorly, is 'Showdown On Poni Island' for three reasons.
1. Lillie had never even considered her father, until Gladion brought it up, and then Lillie was made the star of the WHOLE finding Mohn arc, even though it would've been a prime opportunity for Gladion to leave on a journey after the league ALONE, as a personal growth and father/son (which is something rarely seen, might I add) end of arc, rather than turning the whole thing into Lillie and Magearna. Every interaction we see between Gladion and Mohn, it's either focusing on Lillie, or has Lillie there. We see one SINGLE memory of Gladion as a child with Mohn, and that interaction is later to be reavealed because of Lillie.
2. The episode was created to have a Lycanroc Showdown between Gladion and Ash, so Lillie wasn't even a necessary character in the episode AT ALL, LIKE, UNLESS YOU COUNT THE MOHN THING, WHICH AGAIN, LILLIE WAS UNNECESSARY IN, and was only added for.... NO REASON! And halfway through the battle, Lillie starts a freaking commentary, which no one needs to hear, because the episode is about ASH AND GLADION AS RIVALS, NOT F*CKING LILLIE!!!!!!!!
3. Lillie in this episode, is literally there to.................... What? What is her actual purpose in the episode? Ash could just fall out of the sky onto Gladion's training, and we save Lillie getting involved with the whole Mohn thing.

Now let me start on the episode 'The Homecoming Crown' and BOY could I go on infinitely about this. OHHHH BOY. SKIP TO THE NEXT PARAGRAPH IF YOU WANT TO GET BACK TO MY LILLIE RAGE Right, let me explain the episode, how I would've panned it out. Episode starts with Gladion in a blizzard, when he sees a white and gold Pokemon. He also sees a local villager, and goes to enquire, whilst hot on the trail for his father, hoping the townspeople might have information. Meanwhile, at the lab, Ash, Goh and Chloe are sent to the crown tundra to investigate a mysterious Pokemon seen in a blizzard. Pikachu catches the scent of Gladion, and runs off down the hall of the house partway through their conversation with an eyewitness. Ash knocks on the door, and Gladion opens it, surprised to see Ash. Ash and Gladion quickly exchange stories, and Chloe mentions that the two might be linked, while Goh adds that Gladions father wears white and has yellow hair, so the villager may have just seen Mohn. Gladion agrees, and the villager points them in the direction of a house, where Zoroark bursts out of its ball and hugs its trainer. Mohn asks who they are, and Gladion introduces everyone. Gladion asks Mohn whether he recognises him, but Mohn says, that he doesn't know who Gladion is. Gladion accepts it without questions, until Mohn introduces him to his daughter, NihiLillie. Gladion feels a stab of envy, but Goh, being logical, tells him to hold off on attacking it. Goh and Gladion go to investigate, theorising as they go, until Gladion figures it out. Meanwhile Ash and Chloe gather information on Nihilego and discover the uniform, when Nihilego attacks. Chloe cries out and Goh, Gladion and Mohn all rush in, but Ash and Gladion get it pinned against a wall in no time. Mohn is confused, when Gladion mutters "what would mother do? Lusamine-" He gets cut off sharply as Mohn says "Lusamine?" Gladion nods and picks up the mirror on top of the clothes. "See? All you have to do is look, and the answers are there." And Mohn gets his memory back, Goh catches the Nihilego, and no one ever has to put up with two Lillies ever again. AND SEE? I DIDN'T MAKE LILLIE A KEY PART OF THE STORY WHEN SHE NEVER EVEN KNEW HER DAD!!

Now, back to my rage. Getting a z ring was handed to her on a f*cking silver plate. It was so easy Ash couldn't have done it better. Everyone else worked hard for their Z rings, and Lillie gets it for what? ALMOST PULLING ONE OFF??????

And in the episode 'chasing memories, creating dreams' everyone gets really excited and has a party because she uses a z move. Like, whoop de sh*t, she did something for a change, lets have a party.

And the whole Alola crew were like, Lillie's personal cheerleaders or something. Like, they followed her everywhere, and cheered her on when doing the smallest thing.

Also, the Alola league. Add in a few new trainers, rather than having Principal Oak, Lillie, Mallow and Sophocles take up good spots. It highly annoyed me that Ash, his crew and his rivals literally took up HALF F+OF THE SPOTS in the Manalo conference. And Plumeria would've been a good replacement for one of them, then introduce three new trainers, easy! Lillie didn't even need to be there, considering she lost in the first round to her brother in two attacks. (Count them!)

I will skip the stuff about her relationship with Gladion, but if I went there, I'd be here all day. In short, there was one time Gladion didn't do something Lillie asked, they never argues, and Gladion was practically her slave.

Now, before I go, I'll just mention her four alts and lodge presence when Gladion only just made it into the game. LILLIE IS SO WEAK AND PATHETIC IN THAT GAME, LIKE, FR.

And one last thing: I AM DONE WITH THE GAME LILLIE. SHE IS ANNOYING, AND A WASTE OF PLOTLINE. GIVE POOR HAU SOMETHING FOR ONCE!!! #BuyHauAMalasada

Glad to see I'm not the only one who hates Lillie.

Almost Singlehandedly pretty much the main reason, on top of the rather insulting narrative, that Gen 7 is my most hated Pokémon Gen with a PASSION!