Welfare

Yusshin · Apr 28, 2010

Well, we all know there's always one or two people who abuse the welfare system. Actually, to be specific, thousands of people abuse it. While fully capable of working and searching a job, they and their family prefer to stay at home, reap in 2,000$ of the tax payers' money, and reject every job proposed to them by the government. The majority, I'm sorry to say (and point fingers), are immigrants - not Canadian/American/whatevercountryyou'rein-born immigrants, but immigrants from other countries, specifically East-Asian countries (i.e. India). They immigrate here and reap the tax money they never actually got taxed for during their lifetime.

My question to you is: what can we or the government do about this?

My suggestion would be to focus welfare on the following groups:

- The mentally handicapped
- The physically handicapped
- Students & Single Parents
- Out-Of-School Youth (Until 27)

The rest would have a maximum of two years on welfare; meanwhile, immigrants would be charged with working first before being eligible to acquire welfare. It's not fair that they come into our country and obtain welfare, sit on their butts, and never pay for things with money they earn and feed back to the system with taxes. In fact, the money from the government just ends up going into the pockets of the landlords, to companies, or back into the system as "recycled tax". They shouldn't be able to reject jobs offered by the government either. Two years limit, regardless family, then the opportunity of welfare is removed.

The mentally and physically handicapped wouldn't have a limit. I don't mind paying for the wheelchaired man, or the man with a single leg, or the man with a mental deficiency. I don't mind paying for the single mother or father or a promising student temporarily either. Students would be given a year of welfare after they acquire their final degree in whatever they're doing to find a job. While they're schooling, they should always be eligible for welfare. Single parents should always be eligible as well, but they would have a similar time limit to the already-worked-in-[country] immigrant. Two years is enough time to figure out how to handle having a child and working at the same time. Who knows? You might even find a working partner by that time, in which it would be easier for you, and welfare woud be revoked pending the other person's salary.

Youths should always be eligible as well, regardless of them going to school or being a single parent. A youth who's kicked out of their house and who has nowhere to go should always be allowed to live from welfare. Of course, there would be a limit on that, too. If they don't go to school or don't find a job, they, too, should bear the limit of two years. They shouldn't be able to reject constantly the propositional jobs of the government either.

Of course, people who aren't handicapped / youths / single parents / students can have welfare as well, but only in dire circumstances, such as suddenly losing an income, the death of a spouse, etc. Even then, maximum two years. Two years is a long enough time to find a job to replace the one that was lost, or to figure out what to do about that other income who was lost at the death of a spouse.

I'm just tired of paying taxes for people who laze around and refuse to work on purpose, or because they don't want to be a dishwasher. Seriously.

Mika · Apr 28, 2010

Just a note, you do know that a good portion of single moms abuse welfare? At the school I graduated from [Prodominantly white and in a wealthier neighboorhood tho it was a public school] there were at least 50-60 girls in my graduating class of 500 that had at least one child and one of the reasons they had the child was because they knew they could live off welfare. A friend of mine in the UK has a similiar problem. His mates were pressuring him to get a girl knocked up because of the 'free welfare money'.

But you can't limit those people without hurting the single moms who are working their tails off and just need some help to get by until they can stand on their own.

As far as disability goes, at the moment it's an absolute joke. You have to be disabled for over 14 months before you can even apply and unless you're covered under the new vision plans, you're looking at a 2 to 3 year wait period during which time you can't make more than 1000 dollars a month or you will be dropped from the list. :x There are exceptions but to the best of my knowledge [I moderate a IRC channel that acts as a support channel for disabled young adults] this is the standard go-ahead.

It's also INCREDIBLY hard if you're not in a wheelchair or missing a limb to get on it. The system is very unbalanced.

As far as school goes, if they could lower tuition at American colleges, things would get much easier. The big problem right now is students want to take their studies seriously but student loans either put you in enough debt to pretty much have a house mortgaged or give you enough for your classes but not enough to live on. If you take on a part time job and you do not qualify for work-study, your student loan amounts go down and you won't get as much the next semester.

It's not ~welfare~ so much, in my opinion, as the systems within the culture that drive welfare to the extent it's at. It's not like this in other countries and that's something we should consider.

Yusshin · Apr 28, 2010

In Canada, we have a "formation" which pays for you to go to school. It's a tack-on to welfare and available for students. You don't pay a cent to go to college and learn a technique, such as plumbing, computer repair, etc.

I know single parent mums are an issue, too. In Canada, if you're under 25, your parents are responsible for you and that you're fed - you don't have to be living with them, though. Under 16 and they have to live with you; under 18 and they need to support you entirely, including housing, if you have nowhere to go, especially if there's another child in the picture.

In this case, single parents who have parents with a decent income should be examined prior, and if their parents are actually capable of supporting you (assuming you're under 25), then they should. Meanwhile, if they can't, I don't mind paying for that either. I just don't like when people abuse on purpose.

If you're living with your parents as a single mother / father, too (usually it's "mother", though), then welfare should not be given. You have food. You have a roof over your head. The ony time it should be given is if you have siblings, a single parent, or two parents with a terrible combined income living under one roof.

With the minimum wage being 10.50$, parents make approximately 36,480$ after taxes if they work full-time per year. If you have more than two siblings and are in debt, I don't see a problem with welfare while living with your parents. It's when the income is 60,000$+ and in a good home that a single mum under the age of 25 should be denied it, and the parents forced to do something about it.

FreakyLocz14 · Apr 28, 2010

Yusshin said:
In Canada, we have a "formation" which pays for you to go to school. It's a tack-on to welfare and available for students. You don't pay a cent to go to college and learn a technique, such as plumbing, computer repair, etc.

I know single parent mums are an issue, too. In Canada, if you're under 25, your parents are responsible for you and that you're fed - you don't have to be living with them, though. Under 16 and they have to live with you; under 18 and they need to support you entirely, including housing, if you have nowhere to go, especially if there's another child in the picture.

In this case, single parents who have parents with a decent income should be examined prior, and if their parents are actually capable of supporting you (assuming you're under 25), then they should. Meanwhile, if they can't, I don't mind paying for that either. I just don't like when people abuse on purpose.

If you're living with your parents as a single mother / father, too (usually it's "mother", though), then welfare should not be given. You have food. You have a roof over your head. The ony time it should be given is if you have siblings, a single parent, or two parents with a terrible combined income living under one roof.

With the minimum wage being 10.50$, parents make approximately 36,480$ after taxes if they work full-time per year. If you have more than two siblings and are in debt, I don't see a problem with welfare while living with your parents. It's when the income is 60,000$+ and in a good home that a single mum under the age of 25 should be denied it, and the parents forced to do something about it.

Canada must be mad if they hold parents responsible until age 25. Here in the U.S. the age is 18.
People can still use their parents medical insurance if they are in school up until age 24 if they wish (may go up due to the Obama Health Bill) and usually must report their parent's income instead of their income if applying for financial aid for college unless they have children of their own, are or were married, served in the military, or other special circumstances; but after 18 parents have no legal obligation so parent's income should not matter for purposes of welfare past age 18.

Yusshin · Apr 28, 2010

After 18, parents aren't responsible for crimes a child commits, but they are responsible for clothing and feeding the child until 25. If you're under 25 trying to get welfare, not going to school, etc. they'll examine the parents and most likely deny it, saying "Your parents are obliged to take care of you until 25."

Yet they can kick you out at 16. It's a bit twisted.

Most Canadian citizens think 18 is the max' as well, but if you try and get welfare before 25, they'll tell you to go home to mama and pappy.

Fox♠ · Apr 28, 2010

Get ready for ignorant people to call you racist.

The wellfare system in Britain is ridiclious, I;m not sure what it's like In the US/Canada, but here it's so broken it's not even funny.

FreakyLocz14 · Apr 28, 2010

Yusshin said:
After 18, parents aren't responsible for crimes a child commits, but they are responsible for clothing and feeding the child until 25. If you're under 25 trying to get welfare, not going to school, etc. they'll examine the parents and most likely deny it, saying "Your parents are obliged to take care of you until 25."

Yet they can kick you out at 16. It's a bit twisted.

Most Canadian citizens think 18 is the max' as well, but if you try and get welfare before 25, they'll tell you to go home to mama and pappy.

Well I'm not familiar with Canadian law but in my opinion if the age of legal adulthood is 18 then you are no longer a minor there for your parents have nothing to with you in the law's eyes. Also, a parent should never be held responsible for their child's crimes unless they were criminally negligent in not controlling the behavior of the child.

Fox♠ said:
Get ready for ignorant people to call you racist.

The wellfare system in Britain is ridiclious, I;m not sure what it's like In the US/Canada, but here it's so broken it's not even funny.

The welfare system in the U.S. varies from state-to-state in the more liberal states in can be ridiculous but I think socilaist nations like Canada and the UK take the cake for welfare abuse.

Mika · Apr 28, 2010

FreakyLocz14 said:
Canada must be mad if they hold parents responsible until age 25. Here in the U.S. the age is 18.
People can still use their parents medical insurance if they are in school up until age 24 if they wish (may go up due to the Obama Health Bill) and usually must report their parent's income instead of their income if applying for financial aid for college unless they have children of their own, are or were married, served in the military, or other special circumstances; but after 18 parents have no legal obligation so parent's income should not matter for purposes of welfare past age 18.

That's only partially true, there's a loop hole that I've found myself recently that's a bit of a stickler. You can still declare a child a dependent on your taxes as long as they live at home. If the parent declares a child a dependent then the child cannot declare themselves independent in the student loan world because the parents filed with the child as a dependent. This is the situation I'm in. I live at home because I am disabled and yet because they get a tax write off for me, they keep me around. They feed me; that's about it. Any income I bring home is considered rent and it's taken from me because I'm 18 and I don't ~technically~ have to live at home. I have a living stipend from them that they can reposses as any time because while it was given to me, it's technically 'their money'.

I also can't file for welfare [I can file for SSI because of my medical bills/disabilty] because I live with my parents/my dad makes six digits

Even if you're over 18, your parents still have an influence on your life. If they make too much [even if they don't want to] they'll strongly encourage you to ask your parents for support because your parents 'have the means to support you'. You sometimes have to get them to sign forms saying they won't support you before you can apply for goverment aid.

Fox♠ said:
Get ready for ignorant people to call you racist.

The wellfare system in Britain is ridiclious, I;m not sure what it's like In the US/Canada, but here it's so broken it's not even funny.

From a friend who lived in London, I've heard horror stories. :/ something along the lines of unwed teenage mothers can get the US equivilant of 2 grand a month in 'goverment child support' or is that the amount they get if they're in a 'committed relationship'?

That on top of the fact that you UKers can hide your assets in objects/banks overseas [which is what happened to my friend] to pay minimum child support for your 'old kids' when you decide you want a younger wife and 'new kids'. :D

Yusshin · Apr 28, 2010

I lived in three different apartments in Montreal, and when my fiance lost his job, he applied for welfare. Who lived on welfare the most in those apartments? Immigrants. Who was the majority of people at the welfare office? Immigrants.

His father works with the government for welfare, too. He knows all about it. Even he says the majority are Asian immigrants who apply.

It's an undeniable thing. Immigrants abuse it in Canada; they come from other countries and reap the benefits of a developped one. Everyone here knows it because it's so obvious.

And here it's broken, too. When you really, really need help, they deny you of it. They'll give another person welfare easy, though, and their situation isn't 1/2 as bad.

FreakyLocz14 · Apr 28, 2010

Mika said:
That's only partially true, there's a loop hole that I've found myself recently that's a bit of a stickler. You can still declare a child a dependent on your taxes as long as they live at home. If the parent declares a child a dependent then the child cannot declare themselves independent in the student loan world because the parents filed with the child as a dependent. This is the situation I'm in. I live at home because I am disabled and yet because they get a tax write off for me, they keep me around. They feed me; that's about it. Any income I bring home is considered rent and it's taken from me because I'm 18 and I don't ~technically~ have to live at home. I have a living stipend from them that they can reposses as any time because while it was given to me, it's technically 'their money'.

I also can't file for welfare [I can file for SSI because of my medical bills/disabilty] because I live with my parents/my dad makes six digits

Even if you're over 18, your parents still have an influence on your life. If they make too much [even if they don't want to] they'll strongly encourage you to ask your parents for support because your parents 'have the means to support you'. You sometimes have to get them to sign forms saying they won't support you before you can apply for goverment aid.

From a friend who lived in London, I've heard horror stories. :/ something along the lines of unwed teenage mothers can get the US equivilant of 2 grand a month in 'goverment child support' or is that the amount they get if they're in a 'committed relationship'?

That on top of the fact that you UKers can hide your assets in objects/banks overseas [which is what happened to my friend] to pay minimum child support for your 'old kids' when you decide you want a younger wife and 'new kids'. :D

Financial aid for college dependent/independent status has nothing to do with who claims who on their taxes.

You are independent if you meet at least one of these criteria:
1) Are over the age of 24
2) Are/have been married
3) Have dependents who recieve more than 50% of their support from you
4) You have served or are currently serving in the military
5) You are a foster child or were one until the age of 18
6) You have a Bachleor's Degree or higher

You would still be independent if you parent(s) claimed you on their taxes if you meet that criteria.

Yusshin said:
I lived in three different apartments in Montreal, and when my fiance lost his job, he applied for welfare. Who lived on welfare the most in those apartments? Immigrants. Who was the majority of people at the welfare office? Immigrants.

His father works with the government for welfare, too. He knows all about it. Even he says the majority are Asian immigrants who apply.

It's an undeniable thing. Immigrants abuse it in Canada; they come from other countries and reap the benefits of a developped one. Everyone here knows it because it's so obvious.

And here it's broken, too. When you really, really need help, they deny you of it. They'll give another person welfare easy, though, and their situation isn't 1/2 as bad.

I'd say immigrants and single parents make up most of the welfare abuse problem here too.

Mika · Apr 28, 2010

FreakyLocz14 said:
Financial aid for college dependent/independent status has nothing to do with who claims who on their taxes.

You are independent if you meet at least one of these criteria:
1) Are over the age of 24
2) Are/have been married
3) Have dependents who recieve more than 50% of their support from you
4) You have served or are currently serving in the military
5) You are a foster child or were one until the age of 18
6) You have a Bachleor's Degree or higher

You would still be independent if you parent(s) claimed you on their taxes if you meet that criteria

You can get yourself declared independent before 24 but to do so your parents can't claim you. I ran into this problem when I tried to sever my student loans from my parents to loosen their control on me somewhat. >.>; so long as they claim me [and I'm under 24 I guess] I can't qualify for independent status.

On the immigrant thing: Yes, there are people who abuse it but there are also people who desperately need it and are ashamed to have it. People go to Canada and America from countries for various reasons but for most of them [if we're talking Asian countries] It's not just for a better life financially but emotionally and spiritually. People come here to escape war, famine, disease etc. There's a fine line between abuse and just needing some help. :c

I think the line comes with how you spend the money you're given and the situations surrounding each family. And guys, let's try not to stereotype?

Not everyone on Section 8 Housing is a crook.
Not every immigrant abuses the system for free money to send back to their homeland
Not every immigrant is here to take jobs away from naturalized citizens
Not ever person is looking for welfare to be lazy.

FreakyLocz14 · Apr 28, 2010

Mika said:
You can get yourself declared independent before 24 but to do so your parents can't claim you. I ran into this problem when I tried to sever my student loans from my parents to loosen their control on me somewhat. >.>; so long as they claim me [and I'm under 24 I guess] I can't qualify for independent status.

That's not true. If you are under 24 and do not meet any of those exceptions you are dependent. If you get married, have a child, enlist in the military, or get a Bachleor's Degree then you can claim yourself as independent on the FAFSA. Whether or not your parents claimed you on their taxes has nothing to do with it.

If your loan is from a private lender then they may have their own criteria. Also, Parent PLUS work differently so depending on the type of loan it is you may be right.

Yusshin · Apr 28, 2010

The part where people, not just immigrants, go wrong is when they don't bother trying to search for a job or to try and support themselves without welfare. That's why I think there should be a cap' - two years, and then it's removed. Two years is well enough time to figure everything out.

FreakyLocz14 · Apr 28, 2010

Yusshin said:
The part where people, not just immigrants, go wrong is when they don't bother trying to search for a job or to try and support themselves without welfare. That's why I think there should be a cap' - two years, and then it's removed. Two years is well enough time to figure everything out.

I'd say two years is good but you could get the two years deffered if you are in school or occupational training. Of course they can adjust the aid amount when compared to the amount of financial aid you are recieving for school.

Yusshin · Apr 28, 2010

Students wouldn't have a limit. During their schooling, they can have welfare, but once they're done, they'll get it another year and then they'll need to find a job, related to their diploma or not. After all, the government just paid your metro&bus pass, your schooling, and your housing for your entire post-secondary education. Near the end, before obtaining your degree, you should be hunting a job and sending out resumes, and learning how to make a good cover letter at the employment office. It shouldn't be too difficult.

Mika · Apr 28, 2010

FreakyLocz14 said:
That's not true. If you are under 24 and do not meet any of those exceptions you are dependent. If you get married, have a child, enlist in the military, or get a Bachleor's Degree then you can claim yourself as independent on the FAFSA. Whether or not your parents claimed you on their taxes has nothing to do with it.

If your loan is from a private lender then they may have their own criteria. Also, Parent PLUS work differently so depending on the type of loan it is you may be right.

You can claim yourself independent before that with the reasons I've state previously. Trust me, I've tried. I can't join the military because I'm disabled or I would've gone that route.

I'm referring to federal loans [FAFSA/Parent PLUS etc] in this just so you're aware.

Yusshin said:
The part where people, not just immigrants, go wrong is when they don't bother trying to search for a job or to try and support themselves without welfare. That's why I think there should be a cap' - two years, and then it's removed. Two years is well enough time to figure everything out.

It's well enough time maybe where you are but depending on your area in the US, you may not be able to find a job that pays the bills and puts food on the table without help in a 2 year span. In the US we're in a recession. Not to mention if you have any sort of major health problem atm, you can be completely bankrupted. Do you tell that person 'sorry, your two years are up. We know you had cancer and stuff but your two years are up, you're on your own oh and btw we're repossessing your house next week. :D thank you have a nice day."

I think there should be a contract to work towards things but I think there should be no all encompassing cap on this sort of thing. Each case is different and should be handled as such. More funding should be put into things like Vocal Rehabilitation, a group that helps disabled people and those with mental disabilities find work and more importantly, accommodations that help them stay in work. But stuff like that is loosing funding and having to turn people away.

I personally can't work period without accommodations and thanks to the capitalistic environment I live in, there's someone with an able body who can replace me and without an advocate like Voc Rehab, someone with power and influence, I know I don't stand a chance in the future of finding a job. I work hard and I have a good work ethic but people can't look past my leg. I'm a liability. So my choices? Go on welfare or go on SSI. There is no other option. :x

Again, in some ways we're doing this to ourselves.

Yusshin · Apr 28, 2010

Yeah, we're in recession, too, so it is difficult. We won't be in two years, though. Jobs will start flowing in steadily because a lot of people are going to retire - a lot of people. Not just a few hundred people - thousands across the country.

Obviously cancer is a physical handicap lol Why would we cut off someone with cancer :s They're not fit to work. It's the people who are fit to work who are the problem (as long as they don't fall under any other aforementioned category, like students).

Fox♠ · Apr 28, 2010

Yuushin is right though, one of the main parties contributing to welfare abuse is immigrants. In the UK we have so many Polish here who don't work, they get a free house, some get cars. I'm not gonna slant the indian community in Britain because fair play to them, a lot of them work, and hard. It's not like we can just change our system either now because our FANTASTIC Government has signed over so much of our power to the EU who just love dumping all of Europes work shy layabouts onto us.

Mika, that's absolutely correct, if you get up the duff the tax payers have to splash out to fund around £1300 a month to layabout chavvy single mothers.

The Cynic · Apr 29, 2010

Fox♠ said:
Yuushin is right though, one of the main parties contributing to welfare abuse is immigrants. In the UK we have so many Polish here who don't work, they get a free house, some get cars. I'm not gonna slant the indian community in Britain because fair play to them, a lot of them work, and hard. It's not like we can just change our system either now because our FANTASTIC Government has signed over so much of our power to the EU who just love dumping all of Europes work shy layabouts onto us.

Mika, that's absolutely correct, if you get up the duff the tax payers have to splash out to fund around £1300 a month to layabout chavvy single mothers.

Err-hem Mr. Fox the UK is acountry with a rapidly aging population. If it wasn't for immigrants our economy would collapse due to a lack or economically active citizens.

The Polish are a bloody hard working group of individuals, hats off to them. They don't just get handed cars, they work very hard! The UK has a lack of home-grown doctors and doctors from Eastern Europe keep this country alive; literally. Polish plumbers are amongst the finest in the world and who would you rather come to repair a sink; Greasy Dan, with his bulging belly who dosn't show for weeks and then horribly overcharges you, or Vladimir, who shows up at 8am on the dot and charges a very reasonable price for his work?

It is a government's sole priority to provide social ammenities to its population. Welfare is an important part of those ammenities. You're forgetting that before it was introduced whole communities would collapse into poverty the second an industry ceased to exsist in the local area. People had to work into old age and if they lost their job then they were pretty much screwed.

I'd like to remind you that all Brits, like almost all Americans and Canadians, are immigrants. There are no native Brits because when the first humans were spreading out over the globe there was a massive block of ice on top of us. When the ice thawed Celts, Franks, Saxons etc. all came over and made Britain their home. They were followed by Romans, Vikings and Normans. Then the British Empire was born and from its corners came our Black, Asian and Middle-Eastern members of society. Before and after Nazi Germany, thousands of Jewish people came to the isles seeking refuge from facsist tyranny. The Berlin Wall fell in 1989 and an influx of Eastern European people followed. You see, British is not a sole nationality, but an ammalgamation of many all came together because they see something wonderful here. I'm not a Nationalist; in fact I'm quite the opposite. I just believe that we have a pretty good country. It has its problems, yes, but so do all nations. It is the government's responsability to provide welfare to all areas of society, whether a person's ancestors were Polish, Kurdish, Bangladeshi, Arabic or Jamaican.

If the cost of social wellfare is, in the end, what annoys you the most then maybe we should think about how much money we plough into Trident.

Fxcking Tatertots · Apr 29, 2010

Not paying my taxes for welfare mommies. Nuh-uh. That's their problem, not mine's.

Welfare

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